Your line of reasoning is not only archaic but also illogical and impragmatic. If all men die in war, then who is going to impregnate all the left over women?Carlston said:
Gender equality
- Thread starter Torrasque
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They don't do the same push-ups or other exercises here for anything. Age has no bearing on stuff around here though which is nice, even though my dad was recently "retired" from the military at the age of 50 as an officer because he is no longer medically able to carry a ruck sac, which he hasn't had to do for about 30 years, and would never have to as he is a desk jockey. Bear in mind this is probably a difference between the US and other nations, or even may differ between states for emergency services (excluding the national military of course).Chemical Alia said:
WHo cares, it's not MY reasoning. It's the world pattern made by thousands of years of behavior deeply rooted in a psychie. To say it's my way of thinking and only my fault is silly. The young, the old and women have in the majority of conflicts been kept safe in a idea all the men will not die. You do know not every culture in everytime line support one on one marriage and kids...there is a reason certain religions want 7 wives spitting out 5 kids each and it's not for the "work force". War is a deeply root human ideal.Housebroken Lunatic said:
It's history, rooted in civilizations behavior. I don't say it's right, but in the crusade era where every 20 years they flared up wars again why? Kids are of age...
So question the archaic but also illogical and impragmatic reasonings of every culture in the world for the past 30k years not my way of thinking.
As I been military, and I'm all for it. If someone normally not expected to go to war, in some odd fit of nonself preservation wants to be right up in it...be my guest,they can have it. And all the nightmares that come after, man, woman or child.
Actually, IT IS YOUR line of reasoning, because the arguments you try to make so clearly display several misconeptions as well as several completely unproven claims.Carlston said:
Not event he most prominent scientists of the world have been able to come to an indisputable conclusion about what the "human psyche" is all about, and you think you can do just that with a bunch of archaic generalizations and tell us all what mankind is like? Sorry, im not buying it.
Stop trying to make a few cultural details based on EXTREMELY specific traditions of extremely specific countries to seem like some kind of "deep rooted" evolutionary thing because there is no scientific evidence to support it.
1: Because I was raised with these as my surroundings so now I've become accustomed to the notion.
2: In terms of wages: people get paid for what they do, and statistically, women take more time off. So I've read, anyway. In terms of actual roles: it's down to personal preference, anyone can be whatever they want, so people generally do go for that they want in life (or something close). Men and women want different things from life, so they often do very different things for a living.
3: 2.35, that is "not very much at all, but enough to be a little surprised to see a man doing 'lady-like' things or a woman doing 'masculine' things."
2: In terms of wages: people get paid for what they do, and statistically, women take more time off. So I've read, anyway. In terms of actual roles: it's down to personal preference, anyone can be whatever they want, so people generally do go for that they want in life (or something close). Men and women want different things from life, so they often do very different things for a living.
3: 2.35, that is "not very much at all, but enough to be a little surprised to see a man doing 'lady-like' things or a woman doing 'masculine' things."
A few years back i took part in a study where you take a seriese of IQ tests and they determine your nationality and gender. they were sure i was German, im only a quarter german, but definetly think like that side of the family. I was however given a 60 male/40 female split because i did very well on the male test, but was still well above average in the female.
Now i work as the only male in a team of all women, and find that there are things there that only I appear able to do, mostly on the communication end of things.
This isnt to say women dont know how to communicate or that men cant to lab work, although they didnt have labcoats in my size, this is to say that men and women think work and act different. Our brains are really a "chemical soup" that we dont fully understand, the hormones released by men and women afftect this soup in different ways and shape who we are and there never will be true equality until we can accept this, it does not mean that men or women cant do certain jobs, its just that some will be more inherant to one genders tastes than the other and we shouldnt try to force people into other rolls just to make things look even.
Now i work as the only male in a team of all women, and find that there are things there that only I appear able to do, mostly on the communication end of things.
This isnt to say women dont know how to communicate or that men cant to lab work, although they didnt have labcoats in my size, this is to say that men and women think work and act different. Our brains are really a "chemical soup" that we dont fully understand, the hormones released by men and women afftect this soup in different ways and shape who we are and there never will be true equality until we can accept this, it does not mean that men or women cant do certain jobs, its just that some will be more inherant to one genders tastes than the other and we shouldnt try to force people into other rolls just to make things look even.
Even things that are different between genders from a hormonal level that people bring up are only statistical and there are plenty of people outside the norm. Ratios of genders in careers are a combination of innate and societal but who is the majority of what doesn't really matter. As long as we don't assume random guy is better and random girl at math we're fine. Statistics are just norms and you don't hold an individual to them, let their ability speak for it self.
The Questions:
1) Its a combination, I haven't done enough research on the subject to know how often it is psychological and sociological, but I think its more society.
2) I think we're doing fine in most fields, but I know a girl who said she had a tough time working as a welder because her male coworkers didn't want females in their business. And people still make fun of male nurses. Legally though were fine, just need to let society catch up.
3) I don't know 2, I get pretty offended when I'm told what men and women shouldn't do.
The Questions:
1) Its a combination, I haven't done enough research on the subject to know how often it is psychological and sociological, but I think its more society.
2) I think we're doing fine in most fields, but I know a girl who said she had a tough time working as a welder because her male coworkers didn't want females in their business. And people still make fun of male nurses. Legally though were fine, just need to let society catch up.
3) I don't know 2, I get pretty offended when I'm told what men and women shouldn't do.
lol wow. Your point is only slightly valid, because a man can be raped and subjected to torture just as bad as a female. I don't know anyone who has been raped, but I know it is a huge psychological* blow and takes years for some women to get over. Men can also be degraded and tortured, and just because women are more likely to be raped, that does not mean that they will be.Sarge034 said:
You're also forgetting that our women are just as infidel-ish as our men for "the people over there", and it is possible that they will be treated the exact same as the men. The woman can still be raped, but so what? The man could have his arms broken, healed, broken again, healed, and have his balls removed.
If she found out she was pregnant, she would deal with it as she would if she found out she was pregnant in any other circumstance that involved rape. I think you really got off topic.
I liked the point that someone made earlier (that I can't find atm) where men are likely to be over-protective of women in combat, because that would definitely be a possibility.
I honestly could not give a damn who does what, but the personal characteristics of women tend to piss me off to no end.
I'm trying to get up or down a staircase and I see four legs or two heads standing on the steps and talking. 90% of the time they're both women. Same is true for walking down the sidewalk, working in the library or driving.
They. Won't. Stop. Talking.
I won't say I don't see men doing this. I will say I don't see men do it as frequently as women. Not by a longshot.
6
I'm trying to get up or down a staircase and I see four legs or two heads standing on the steps and talking. 90% of the time they're both women. Same is true for walking down the sidewalk, working in the library or driving.
They. Won't. Stop. Talking.
I won't say I don't see men doing this. I will say I don't see men do it as frequently as women. Not by a longshot.
6
Lets face it, if no ginormicus change happens to our society, Like say brainwash every single human in the face of the earth and any other planet we might be secretly exploring by now, then there will be no true gender equality.
why is that, you might ask, Well I will say because of the obvious preconceptions society imprints on us.
Its true that the physical differences between sexes are more then obvious (some actually aren't but are quite determining in the roles we are often good at.)thus making men more apt for some tasks then the majority of the women. this is not an unknown thing.
Now having that stated... am I sexist? definitely not. Maybe a 1, since i rather watch female striping. But one of the things that really ticks me off into anger is hearing sexist remarks, and not joking ones i can deal with that( I do it myself), when people are serious about it. and guess what? I've noticed that women are often more sexist then men. if one is able and good at something then they should be allowed to do it. Men and women are different, true, but we do complete each other. I could be called a total jerk wad by mentioning the bible here. But guess what I will. So look in the genesis, is the male superior to the female? NO, DEFINITELY NOT, when said that Eve is born out of a rib of Adam, Well don't take it so damn literally, it only means neither are complete without the other. Both men and women need each other. And not only in a sexual or to keep the species going. its all about as sentient beings, no one is ever complete by oneself.
So should we say that women are only good for this or that and the same for men? No.
Instead try looking at the individual and not the sex to determine. if one qualifies then it should be admitted.
why is that, you might ask, Well I will say because of the obvious preconceptions society imprints on us.
Its true that the physical differences between sexes are more then obvious (some actually aren't but are quite determining in the roles we are often good at.)thus making men more apt for some tasks then the majority of the women. this is not an unknown thing.
Now having that stated... am I sexist? definitely not. Maybe a 1, since i rather watch female striping. But one of the things that really ticks me off into anger is hearing sexist remarks, and not joking ones i can deal with that( I do it myself), when people are serious about it. and guess what? I've noticed that women are often more sexist then men. if one is able and good at something then they should be allowed to do it. Men and women are different, true, but we do complete each other. I could be called a total jerk wad by mentioning the bible here. But guess what I will. So look in the genesis, is the male superior to the female? NO, DEFINITELY NOT, when said that Eve is born out of a rib of Adam, Well don't take it so damn literally, it only means neither are complete without the other. Both men and women need each other. And not only in a sexual or to keep the species going. its all about as sentient beings, no one is ever complete by oneself.
So should we say that women are only good for this or that and the same for men? No.
Instead try looking at the individual and not the sex to determine. if one qualifies then it should be admitted.
I have to diagree with you on this one, the reason that women got cheaper insurance was because they were statistically less likely to have an accident. With things like insurance, I don't think that people can claim sexism, because absolutely everything is based on statistics. This is also why insurance is more expensive for young drivers, why insurance is more expensive if your car is red, why it's more expensive if you modify your carCpt Corallis said:
OT: I don't think that gender equality is necessarily the problem. I think the problem is overcompensation, like a few other people have said. Everyone has an equal chance at a job, but some people show a greater aptititude for that job. Disregarding sex for a minute, nobody complains if the person beating them to a job is simply better than them. The fact is that people are hired based on how well they would perform a job. If they can't demonstrate in an interview that they are the best candidate, they won't be hired, simple as that
Having said that, I think that there are a number of jobs that are traditionally thought of as men's or women's jobs, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon, if ever. At least, it won't change while people still hold notions of gender roles as they currently exist
well when a woman joins the military Im sure she's aware of all the things that go along with it (its not exactally the most woman-freindly profession) however I think it would take alot of drive for a woman to join up (god forbid I'd never do it)Raven said:
I think rape and torture are BOTH terrible and both can really fuck you up in the long term, I dont think I could say which is worse (Death is "the end of the world" but rape and torture I think come pretty close) though I think a woman is more lilkley to be raped
anyway I think when it comes to jobs that are mainly physical then yes men to have the advantage however that only means the have the advantage and not that woman cant do physical stuff (because they can)....and anything else? its all fair game, also you have to look at the induvidual
My first question, did you read the other posts that led to this one? That would help a lot. My second question, how is the topic of women in a combat MOS off topic? It sounds like an equality discussion to me.Torrasque said:
I know we are all considered infidels to the religious terrorists, and that is why I said it. A man will not be raped as it is against their religion. This might not be the best source. If it is not, just google Kuran on being gay. The line that did catch my eye said, "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." Women however, are considered second class citizens as it is. So couple their male chauvinism with their views on infidels and it will be worse for a woman.
As for the torture, please do your research. You will not be there long enough for the bone to heal. You will be saved or dead. IF they do decide to torture you they will remove your shoes and hit your feet with a pipe or some equivalent. They are more likely to work you over (that means they beat the shit out of you) and then decapitate you while filming it.
I only brought up the pregnancy because that is something else a man will not have to worry about. I'm not saying it is worse then non-combat related rape, just had equality relevance.
Two new things I had not thought about.
First, women require more personal hygiene items then men. I heard a story from someone that was stationed in Afghanistan. A woman got a really bad urinary tract infection that messed up her bladder because of the lack of proper female hygiene items in the FOB (forward operating base) they were in. So if that happend in a base, what happens when they have to go out on extended combat missions, get behind enemy lines, of are in a S.E.R.E ( Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) situation?
Second, male and female soldiers MUST have separate sleeping arrangements at all times. Combat personell often go outside the wire (out of the compound/FOB) and take controll of a building to work from called a firm base, and almost always sleep in a common area. You can see the living area in their firm base at 7.02, but watch the whole thing. This the the best documentary series I have seen on the war yet. This is a problem. Do we only make men stay outside the wire? Does that not put us back to the question of equality where this topic started?
Both of these reasons are why the Navy still does not let females on subs. They require more "stuff" and the Navy would have to modify the already cramped subs to have female quarters, showers, and bathrooms
As for the torture, please do your research. You will not be there long enough for the bone to heal. You will be saved or dead. IF they do decide to torture you they will remove your shoes and hit your feet with a pipe or some equivalent. They are more likely to work you over (that means they beat the shit out of you) and then decapitate you while filming it.
I only brought up the pregnancy because that is something else a man will not have to worry about. I'm not saying it is worse then non-combat related rape, just had equality relevance.
Two new things I had not thought about.
First, women require more personal hygiene items then men. I heard a story from someone that was stationed in Afghanistan. A woman got a really bad urinary tract infection that messed up her bladder because of the lack of proper female hygiene items in the FOB (forward operating base) they were in. So if that happend in a base, what happens when they have to go out on extended combat missions, get behind enemy lines, of are in a S.E.R.E ( Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) situation?
Second, male and female soldiers MUST have separate sleeping arrangements at all times. Combat personell often go outside the wire (out of the compound/FOB) and take controll of a building to work from called a firm base, and almost always sleep in a common area. You can see the living area in their firm base at 7.02, but watch the whole thing. This the the best documentary series I have seen on the war yet. This is a problem. Do we only make men stay outside the wire? Does that not put us back to the question of equality where this topic started?
Both of these reasons are why the Navy still does not let females on subs. They require more "stuff" and the Navy would have to modify the already cramped subs to have female quarters, showers, and bathrooms
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.missionislam.com%2Fknowledge%2Fhomosexuality.htm&ei=3bSJTdXlIobQsAPK9-SADA&usg=AFQjCNGdfc4iAsPZwyw6-3tSgfgyWiFBhg
Frankly i think it comes down to practicality(sorry if i miss spelled that).
I dont give a hoot if the person saving me from a burning building is a Woman or a man... JUST GET ME THE FUZZ OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!!
Also i think im a 3. Dont really know why i came up with that specific number.
I dont give a hoot if the person saving me from a burning building is a Woman or a man... JUST GET ME THE FUZZ OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!!
Also i think im a 3. Dont really know why i came up with that specific number.
sexism works the other way too... promote someone just because she's a woman, to get more women at higher levels, even if there's a more qualified man? sexist...
marvelling about the state of women as the governor general, the prime minister, and a handful of premiers of australia are women? not necessarily sexist, but not exactly doing much to eliminate the sexism... it shouldn't matter if they're women, so long as they can do the job... promote based on performance, not whether or not they dangle...
on the other hand, voting for someone BECAUSE they're a woman... sexist...
marvelling about the state of women as the governor general, the prime minister, and a handful of premiers of australia are women? not necessarily sexist, but not exactly doing much to eliminate the sexism... it shouldn't matter if they're women, so long as they can do the job... promote based on performance, not whether or not they dangle...
on the other hand, voting for someone BECAUSE they're a woman... sexist...
Raven said:
*Raises hand* I'm a woman, and while I won't presume to speak for my entire gender, I can offer my opinion as an adult female.Sarge034 said:
I tend to agree with Raven's Nest, especially that bit I bolded. The threat of rape is something you live with regardless of where you are. And, depending on where you live and how dangerous your neighborhood is, is something you have to take into consideration every time you go out alone. The same way you have to think about the possibility of getting hit by a car, or mugged, or murdered; yes it's something that could happen, but if I let all the might's and maybe's govern my life I'd never leave the house.
So if I know the risks, am willing to accept them, and am qualified, why should I be denied on the supposition that something bad could happen?
On the issue of equality, and specifically to this conversation regarding women in the military, I believe that women should be able to serve in combat, however, I also feel that we should be held to the same physical standards that men are. Because if I'm honest with myself: can I lift 60-70lbs? Certainly. Could I drag or carry a 200lb adult while wearing 60lbs of gear? No. But there are probably women who could. If an individual, regardless of gender meets the set qualifications, then let em' in.
Do you think there is a reason you see mostly X gender in Y roles?
I don't see mostly X gender in Y roles, simple as that. I don't even assume that people are the gender they appear to be in the light of traditional gender-specific clothing or behaviour.
Why do you think there is job inequality?
Because we haven't done enough to give equal opportunities to different genders. Efficiency in different jobs is likely to be a factor too, but for most professions it's hardly possible to say when there truly is a difference in efficiency until the opportunities are made equal and all genders' efficiency is measured in those circumstances.
On a scale of 1-10 (10 being highest) how sexist would you say you are?
I assume my number is close to 1. I acknowledge that there are some physical differences between sexes, but individual differences and modern technology make these differences mostly irrelevant. There are some mental differences as well, but the thing is, guy bodies don't necessarily have guy brains and girl bodies may not necessarily have girl brains. There aren't just guy brains and girl brains either -- I would know since I'm neutrois transgender.
Also, while I think the psychology of different gender identities to differ, everything goes. I trust people to know or find out what they're good at and what they want to do and seek out their role in the community accordingly. Expectations and artificial limitations based on gender should be abolished since they're mostly just in the way of true potential.
I don't see mostly X gender in Y roles, simple as that. I don't even assume that people are the gender they appear to be in the light of traditional gender-specific clothing or behaviour.
Why do you think there is job inequality?
Because we haven't done enough to give equal opportunities to different genders. Efficiency in different jobs is likely to be a factor too, but for most professions it's hardly possible to say when there truly is a difference in efficiency until the opportunities are made equal and all genders' efficiency is measured in those circumstances.
On a scale of 1-10 (10 being highest) how sexist would you say you are?
I assume my number is close to 1. I acknowledge that there are some physical differences between sexes, but individual differences and modern technology make these differences mostly irrelevant. There are some mental differences as well, but the thing is, guy bodies don't necessarily have guy brains and girl bodies may not necessarily have girl brains. There aren't just guy brains and girl brains either -- I would know since I'm neutrois transgender.
Also, while I think the psychology of different gender identities to differ, everything goes. I trust people to know or find out what they're good at and what they want to do and seek out their role in the community accordingly. Expectations and artificial limitations based on gender should be abolished since they're mostly just in the way of true potential.