Gender role double standards

[gazumped]

Could I ask a question? What is your profession and, if you could answer with all honesty if you opened a group for your profession, what percentage of the active members would probably be men?

That doesn't seem relevant - "mostly consists of X" doesn't mean "only X allowed".

I think his point is that if there is overwhelmingly more X than Y then Y may feel disadvantaged as it's not seen as 'their place' to be there and feel like they need extra support.

I was just talking on another thread about how I think that one-sex-only groups are a bit counter productive. Having said that I was just going to point out that there's male-only things as well as female-only things - in either case it's usually in a field where the other sex tends to hold the majority of the field. I've seen social care training for men only, for example. I don't think it's a double standard, it's merely that it doesn't make as much sense to have a men only group for sectors where men are having no trouble getting into it, just like it wouldn't make as much sense to have a woman-only support for sectors where women are stereotypically seen as better for the roles.

Besides, OP, it's hardly a double standard that "had a man done the same thing there would have been a lot of negative feedback" when it sounds like she did get a lot of negative feedback. I just hope that your profession is as equal as you seem to think it is and she hasn't just been bullied out of it by a lot of guys wondering why on Earth the 5% of women in your career might need some extra encouragement to keep at it.

But yeah, either way I don't think it's an ideal situation to split up genders (I suppose I'm just being a bit "why can't we all just get along? :'( ") but I do get the point behind them.

 

[AgedGrunt]

But yeah, either way I don't think it's an ideal situation to split up genders (I suppose I'm just being a bit "why can't we all just get along? :'( ") but I do get the point behind them.

It makes sense to a certain extent, particularly in one example someone gave about talking to a female boss about her medical problem (though I'd hope a Facebook group for lady issues wouldn't be necessary). I'd also say something for a human resource rep/department which can handle a range of issues and mediate, where possible.

With exceptions, a point that sticks me is that we won't understand each other if we keep making boy and girl clubs. Maybe at some level we don't think that can or should even happen.

 

[The_Tron]

Well the point of this original group is for people to share professional experiences, find work, and basically answer any questions related to the field. This woman then says "Hey ladies, I made a group for us" then a summary of basically the same objective of the original group, "No offense guys" and the name of the group was Female only "original group name here". Then when people said how that's sexist behavior by intentionally trying to exclude people she lied and said that was never her intention, that the group was for anyone who wanted to. Even though it was an invite only and only women get invited. The double standard here is that yes had a man done it there would have been a lot more flak faster and said flak would have been much harsher. Likely the group would have to have been abolished for discrimination and the creator would have been kicked out of the original group for sexual discrimination (they've kicked people out for less so yes that would happen). What still bugs me is that she acts like she did nothing wrong. And no this field is not so dominated by one gender or the other. At one point yes it was but it's getting much closer to 50/50 now. So because of that and the fact that there's almost no real gender discriminating factors in the job (aside from conversations in the break rooms) it just seems like a way to revert back to the old school "boy's club" except from the other gender, and why is it fair that said boys clubs where torn apart because they were misogynistic and discriminatory, but the exact reverse scenario its somehow ok? That screams double standard to me.

"yeah well if your the majority you have more freedoms and privileges that the minority and any attempt to help the minority is somehow seen as an affront to the privileges you enjoy." Ya to be honest the "privileges and freedoms" are the same between the minorities and majorities within the field. Those privileges and freedoms really only by industy, company and location. For example some companies can afford to pay way more and offer way better benefits because the product they produce requires much less input for how expensive the final product is. My profession is difficult to describe unless you know, simply because it varies quite a bit from industry to industry and even within said industry. The entry level jobs are comparable to skilled labourers and the middle of the pack is basically what Homer Simpson does (sit at a control panel and manipulate a number of systems or just sit and make sure nothing blows up depending on the industry) higher up positions are comparable to management. Within the original group it's probably about 60-40 men to women and even then there's a lot of older guys in the group and instructors across the country. Overall your statements have just sounded like you're trying to make me sound like a immature prick who's whining for nothing and fine that may be your opinion, I don't agree and I don't think you fully understand the situation but you're welcome to believe that. I can try and provide you with more information if need be, just ask in a concise manner.

I can understand if the point was to discuss issues about say being a female in said profession but the fact that she said the point of it was copy and pasted from the original group just seemed as though the only point of it was to exclude the other gender.

 

[The_Tron]

I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

 

[AgedGrunt]

I will say though that a male friend of mine belongs to a male only social group for men who are involved in early childhood education, a profession dominated by women. The group helps him share interests with other dudes who have the same interest and talk about issues that are only applicable to them such as a weird mistrust of male ECE workers from parents.

Again, while there are times when it makes sense, would you agree that everyone could benefit if the issues were more, for lack of a better term, accessible? Being a white male, my experience is that segregation has an alienating effect, in that it can leave the majority ignorant and naive toward minorities and how they are affected in daily life.

Using your example, changes in perception need to be made so that the industry can work to eliminate that gender bias. I definitely see the need for your friend's group and that it helps them navigate the challenge of gender bias, but a group like that seems limited to treating the symptoms of a big problem.

If we're going to work toward creating fair and equal professional environments, everyone needs to be involved and understand each other, and to a certain extent that means the majority needs to understand the minority better.

 

[AgedGrunt]

Yes, in a perfect world we would all respect each others viewpoints and listen with open caring hearts. This isn't always the case.

Most women will experience sexual harassment in the workplace at one time or another and as both you and me are white males, we really shouldn't have the say in the conversation.

Well I suppose most of how I feel is big picture social progress rather than trying to make "ideal" environments. In general I don't feel anyone should be excluded from conversation, at least at a higher level. If more men were explicitly subject to testimony from women who have been harassed, heard their stories and what it did to them, I think that's significant. Surely not advocating private information is released, but maybe we need to start having tough conversations with each other. Thanks for your input.

 

[The_Tron]

I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

Well since women never get any internet backlash for anything they say on the internet I'm sure your friend received a lot of rape threats as well.

Really? That's a pretty sick joke for a former HR rep. And that doesn't even relate, sure people of all gender, race and sexual orientation have received backlash on the internet if you want to be that general. But in a group of supposed professionals in the field, no nothing like that has happened before. If you're going to be an asshole like that and not even contribute something thought out, why are you even here?

 

[The_Tron]

I accidentally forgot to type this in my last post but last time I checked on the thread about the creation of the group one of the original posters who said the creation of the group was sexist and exclusionary had mentioned how because of his comment he received a number of hateful messages calling him things like a misogynistic pig from the women within the group. This kind of backlash over pointing something out like that is one of the double standards I'm referring to.

Well since women never get any internet backlash for anything they say on the internet I'm sure your friend received a lot of rape threats as well.

Really? That's a pretty sick joke for a former HR rep. And that doesn't even relate, sure people of all gender, race and sexual orientation have received backlash on the internet if you want to be that general. But in a group of supposed professionals in the field, no nothing like that has happened before. If you're going to be an asshole like that and not even contribute something thought out, why are you even here?

I don't know what you interpreted this as but here was the point.

These complaints of these double-standards you speak of are not really issues.

There's things you and I most likely will never have done to us. We don't really have to worry about sexual harassment or sexism in the workplace.

When we voice our concerns out "double-standards" online, we won't have a barrage of rape threats given to us. Hell, if we did get those we would not really worry about them because there's almost no chance we will suffer from the act of rape.
If you were really concerned with double-standards, real actual concerns that affect people, you would see just how much of the long end of the stick you have in almost every area.

No, your concern is with being excluded from something you don't even have an interest in joining and not lacking the ability to being able to exclude others, something you don't even want to do anyway.

You're being incredibly vague with your profession, I'm not complaining about that, you have the right to your privacy. However, I'm guessing it's not nursing or childhood education so anything else is an industry women had to fight to get in.

Get a grip on reality, see things from more than your own narrow perspective.

As someone who has been raped by a women and was unable to do anything about it. I would like to say you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. So just leave as all you are doing right now is being extremely offensive. You brought up industries where women had to fight just to get in, well that's all well and fine but because they had to fight just to get in these industries I'm supposed to suffer and not have the same rights as them because men before me were oppressive assholes. There's clearly a lot you aren't seeing here and maybe it's because you're in a very different part of the world or industry. Either way, yes sexism and sexual harassment can happen to anyone in the work force, Male or female, just because I am a male doesn't mean it can't happen to me, sure it's less likely depending on the field but it still can, the fact that you said "We don't really have to worry about sexual harassment or sexism in the workplace." is a really strong indicator that you are part of the problem.

 

[The_Tron]

My workplace personally I feel is fine, a relatively health mix of gender, race and ethnicities. This creation of this second group is offensive in because of the attitude presented by it's creator, acting as though it should have been fine knowing full well that it was excluding people based on gender. And the double standard present because of how this kind of activity not long ago was ground for serious punishment when perpetrated by males, now that it's the other way around it's just a "Meh" issue. These are what I find so offensive about it, yes, I don't want to join the second group as it provides no benefit over the original, it's merely a clone but gender exclusive. Had it at least been presented to discussing the gender related issues within the field I would have been fine with it, but as I said before the creator made the group just to exclude others and create a "girls club" version of what is supposed to be a professional group meant to help others do their job and be better qualified within the field.

Edit: Also the reaction towards the first person who pointed out the group was sexist and exclusive from the members of the second group was really ridiculous. I know that happened in the past but in the argument that ensued people cry about outgrowing the mistakes our society has made in the past and then attempt to recreate them in a slightly different manner.

 

[The_Tron]

Ok maybe you should go back and read the original post, I never said I was suffering in the workplace. I actually enjoy where I work, what I'm talking about refers to a group on facebook which extends beyond the borders of my workplace. Also about those advantages I feel only C is accurate for my field, as A there are a number of women that are in the higher levels of the profession. Hell the women who created the "Womens only" group on facebook that I referred to earlier is one of the highest levels attainable and she still did what she did and still believes she did nothing wrong. As for B because of the wide array of ethnicities (I can easily think of people from 4 different continents) our workplace is very diverse, as such are the personal lives and interests associated with them.

 

[The_Tron]

I'm supposed to suffer and not have the same rights as them because men before me were oppressive assholes.

Unfortunately, we still benefited from those oppressive assholes.

Again, other than "I can't do it" (which we established you don't even want to) you haven't explained how this affects you in any way whatsoever.

Well ya It's clear I don't want to make a clone of a group I'm already in with the added purpose to exclude people. Honestly I feel like you're not even reading my comments. Either that or just not comprehending it. And I'm really getting the impression that all you are trying to do is troll and I've had enough of your bullshit.