Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[spectrenihlus]

If a wife get's attacked by her abusive husband for leaving a spot on the dishes, is that the wife's fault or the husband's?

 

[Lyri]

I don't hate the world because people aren't allowed to spew hate, I hate the world because supposedly rational people would rather defend murderers over an idiot who made a stupid movie.

Are you suggesting I advocate any of this behaviour?

 

[ResonanceSD]

Huh, we had riots in Sydney a few days ago about this same thing.

I've seen the movie, it's complete crap.

I think people are using it as an excuse to vent frustration and rage.

I mean seriously, you will not find a stupider video on youtube.

 

[CentralScrtnzr]

I cannot stand you miserable apologists. *NO-ONE* has the right to not be offended. Because some private citizens put out a film harshly offensive to Muslims is no bloody justification to engage in assault and murder. Their behavior woudl *NEVER* stand up in a court of law.

I'm an American. Our ambassador to Libya lies dead because of Libyans. I consider this an act of war; I want those responsible punished, and I want the Libyans to pay reparations and damages to the bereaved. Failing to do so means we have the right to engage in punitive attacks against Libyan targets.

Again, you apologists make me sick. And, again, no-one has the right to not be offended.

I'm a fairly apolitical fellow. Nevertheless, the liberal response to these tragedies may well have handed the election to the conservatives. And, admittedly, the conservatives are totally in the right to be condemning these attacks and those that apologize for them.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Failing to do so means we have the right to engage in punitive attacks against Libyan targets.

These are of course, the very same Libyan targets that your airstrikes just installed.


Try taking out that idiot far-right christian filmmaker first. No one has the right to not be offended, sure, but no one has the right to be that fucking stupid and still be heard by the world.

 

[wulf3n]

I don't hate the world because people aren't allowed to spew hate, I hate the world because supposedly rational people would rather defend murderers over an idiot who made a stupid movie.

Are you suggesting I advocate any of this behaviour?

When you suggest that the film maker is more at fault than the people actually committing murder it certainly sounds like it.

 

[BNguyen]

I cannot stand you miserable apologists. *NO-ONE* has the right to not be offended. Because some private citizens put out a film harshly offensive to Muslims is no bloody justification to engage in assault and murder. Their behavior woudl *NEVER* stand up in a court of law.

I'm an American. Our ambassador to Libya lies dead because of Libyans. I consider this an act of war; I want those responsible punished, and I want the Libyans to pay reparations and damages to the bereaved. Failing to do so means we have the right to engage in punitive attacks against Libyan targets.

Again, you apologists make me sick. And, again, no-one has the right to not be offended.

I'm a fairly apolitical fellow. Nevertheless, the liberal response to these tragedies may well have handed the election to the conservatives. And, admittedly, the conservatives are totally in the right to be condemning these attacks and those that apologize for them.

While I don't necessarily agree that we should threaten all of Libya for this, it can't count as an act of war between Libya and the US unless the Libyan government authorized the attack.

 

[BNguyen]

Yes he can be. Manslaughter is a valid charge, then you can add in so many other things on him as well.

So now we're responsible for the actions of others?

You really want to create a world where you're responsible for how other people react to you're opinion?

By that reasoning someone could read one of your thread posts, kill a bunch of people because of it, and it's your fault not theirs, with you being punished.

Edit to my posts before: Never mind, realizing now that the video was released in june this was obviously a concentrated effort, making my opinion a stupid post.

And no, your misunderstanding me, we can't punish the people directly responsible because we don't KNOW who did it. your example holds no merit to my line of thinking which your trying to disprove, but i never fully explained my line of thinking so its understandable your response was not as well thought. Good point though, just wrong mindset.

No, no matter what the man should be punished. If you would read other people's posts, then you would see many valid reasons. The man did it specifically to incite Muslims. but i doubt it would have been as spectacular if it was not for the terror groups and such inciting more violence.

My point is,the maker should be punished period, but since we can't properly punish the mob, we don't take action against them. (Unless you want to chance doing more harm then justice.)

so basically, if someone does something that indirectly leads to others conducting violence in the name of the first person's action, then go into hiding and the cops can't find them after a while, we have to go back to the first person and give them the punishment we were going to give to those who incited violence. makes perfect sense to me

the man didn't do it to purposefully incite violence but to annoy them and insult them. I hardly think he expected them to take it this far, which is why you can't just punish the person who accidentally started this and ignore the ones who are doing the violence. That is why your logic makes no sense to me.
Based on your posts, you'd led a murderer go free just because you don't know what he looks like and then go after his family because they apparently raised a bad child. It's the same logic you're apparently following and its worse than not punishing the violent ones at all.
Just because we may not know who did the killings and started being violent doesn't mean we just let them go, I'm sure we can do something diplomatically and find some people willing to testify and serve as witnesses, while we may not find everyone, it'd be better than just punishing one man for indirectly causing a group of people to turn into murderers.

You have had spouted the worst analogy i have heard ever. DID YOU EVEN READ THE POSTS BEFORE? t may be 9 pages but you are smart. This was a clear effort by terrorist to attack the the embassy. Also I never mentioned anything about attacking family, and what world do you live in? They got violent over some political cartoons a few years ago, this is much worse. Can we capture a whole mob? Oh i wish, but we can't so we punish those we can catch for sure. Like the film maker, and those people who are making the problem worse.

Yeah, I've read your posts, a lot of them poorly written grammatically, and you still want to use the excuse of can't find them go after one instead of the ones actually causing the violence. And I believe my analogy perfectly fits with your mode of thinking on this entire situation. You'd rather take the easy way out instead of buckling down and going after with at least the bare minimum effort necessary to take down the terrorists and troublemakers, it's as if you didn't even read the last part of my post where we could work with witnesses and people who were once part of the mob but not anymore to help capture the right villains.
Until you can actually stop and think about what you're posting then I suggest you don't write back.
Please, can't go after the terrorists, just because they're currently unknown to US, so we might as well go after a single person because he was just the final straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not saying to let the man completely off the hook, he needs to do time for fraud and an accessory to violence but just going after him and refusing to even look for the terrorists is basically the same as letting them off free with no punishment.

So your willing to fire into crowds of people? There is a reason why so few arrest have been made after all. And i would be going after people like that nutjob sheik in the article which you did not read because you did read THE POST BEFORE MINE ON THE OTHER PAGES (That was what i meant by reading) And the such, muzzle the dradicals main source of anger and you will calm the situation.

I never said fire into crowds, don't be putting words into my mouth when you so clearly haven't read my posts when I said acquire witnesses and those willing to confess in order to make arrests. So stop posting and actually take the time to READ WHAT I WRITE! AND EVEN IF YOU ARREST THE DIRECTOR AND PUBLICLY BROADCAST THAT IT WAS ACCOMPLISHED< IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT A PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACK WILL CEASE.

You obviously never been in a mob before. You don't get witnesses there are to maqny people and those people don't want to talk, and would you be willing to spend millions of dollars investigating this? No, no one would its a waste of time. Besides you didn't even read what i said, Areest the nutjobs making the situation worse. Read some of the articles and you will know who I'm talking about.

I'd be more willing to spend the money to find and arrest the nutjobs than letting them off the hook, I'm sure the families would want an investigation, the governments who are fighting the terrorists would want to spend the money, everybody who has ever hated a terrorist and wants them punished would want to spend the money to make sure these evil less than human-beings walk free. If you arrest the troublemakers, you're more likely to make places safe for the innocent. And how do you know that some people didn't mean for the violence to escalate the way that it did, maybe there were some who wanted to protest, if we can find these people and maybe some who are willing to work together on this we can get the terrorists. I won't sleep easy at night unless every terrorist, those who allow terrorism, and those who say don't punish the terrorists still is free to act on those ideas.
You sir, or ma'am are essentially allowing these terrorists to walk because you are too lazy to take a stand against them, but apparently, you'd arrest every person in the free world who speaks their minds just because someone took it too far and did some violence somewhere in the world related to what the person said.
I'm not going to continue this conversation so long as you are willing to let the terrorists walk after what they've done.

I'm sorry i thought you meant the mob, (To be fair you never said terrorists, you said the mob.) Listen it is more then likely a terror group is going to claim action, problem solved go get them uncle Sam. and I also said, we don't know who was in the mob that are vandalizing the embassy's, but we do know who is making it worse, IE the nutjobs. You are also misunderstanding me here, i'm not saying don't take action, what i am saying is that the effort to find a few vandalizing people in a mob of thousands is not worth the trouble when we can kill a few Taliban and arrest the men who made the problem worse. That is all can we leave it at that?

if we can both agree that 1) the filmmaker should be punished, 2) the terrorists need to be punished, and 3) the people who caused the deaths, although me may never be sure of who did the acts, need to be punished, if we can agree that violence is no excuse for essentially verbal offense, then yes, we can let this argument go

 

[Lyri]

When you suggest that the film maker is more at fault than the people actually committing murder it certainly sounds like it.

There are a lot of pages to this thread so I'll forgive the slight.

I said earlier I advocate none of their behaviour, I just believe that blame should be placed equally.

 

[theultimateend]

When you suggest that the film maker is more at fault than the people actually committing murder it certainly sounds like it.

There are a lot of pages to this thread so I'll forgive the slight.

I said earlier I advocate none of their behaviour, I just believe that blame should be placed equally.

I dunno if I could blame the filmmaker if only because this kind of reaction is unacceptable.

Basically anyone who would resort to violence because they are offended is an irrational individual and trying to tip toe around them is an unacceptable request.

These folks are insane, period, and there should never be an expectation of cow towing around insanity.

There are plenty of non-religious examples (gangs was mentioned here I think), there is no physical protection from the insane people that you offend but I also don't think there should be an expectation of guilt on your part if insane people do insane things.

These rioters be trippin', is basically what I'm saying.

Just seems to me that they are insecure in their beliefs. When was the last time a bunch of "insert any other religion here" gathered together and started tearing down shit because someone made an offensive comic, video, or song about their most precious figure head?

I'm not ignorant that these things HAVE happened in the past, but how common in modern day is this sort of thing? Just seems like its only one particular sect, everyone else bitches but mostly from weblogs or fox news. Not with knifes, bombs, etc.

 

[mavkiel]

The only thing I have to say about this is, the so-called "Moderate" or "TRUE, peace loving Muslims" no longer get a pass from me. Yes, every religion has it's extremists but if the overall community cannot reign in or make visible that THEY are the true believers and are not at all how they are portrayed, they deserve to be lumped in with the scum.

If the peaceful, loving followers of Islam truly believed that their fanatical/extremist brethren were in the wrong, why do we not see MASSIVE reactions from them with counter protests, even perhaps violent clashing with them to show that they will NOT tolerate the senseless murder of others in the name of their religion.

I'm not necessarily advocating increasing hostilities, but at some point you have to do more than just TALK about what you believe in or how you are different. You have to stand up and put yourself at personal RISK to SHOW how different you are and that you TRULY believe in what you claim.

I'd suggest that perhaps the peaceful Muslims might very be considered "extremist" so far as Islam goes. Look at the size of those riots and the violence(and at the multiple locations spread across several countries).

Heck, was it a week ago that a cartoon showing Jesus and various Hindu gods in a orgy got created? Yet I have not seen a single protest over it. Or some video game that looks like Mortal combat knock off with Hindu gods is in development. (Yet all that was done is a peaceful request to not add them in it)

 

[Harbinger_]

The only thing I have to say about this is, the so-called "Moderate" or "TRUE, peace loving Muslims" no longer get a pass from me. Yes, every religion has it's extremists but if the overall community cannot reign in or make visible that THEY are the true believers and are not at all how they are portrayed, they deserve to be lumped in with the scum.

If the peaceful, loving followers of Islam truly believed that their fanatical/extremist brethren were in the wrong, why do we not see MASSIVE reactions from them with counter protests, even perhaps violent clashing with them to show that they will NOT tolerate the senseless murder of others in the name of their religion.

I'm not necessarily advocating increasing hostilities, but at some point you have to do more than just TALK about what you believe in or how you are different. You have to stand up and put yourself at personal RISK to SHOW how different you are and that you TRULY believe in what you claim.

Thats all well and good except for the fact that they have no qualms about killing people that disagree. Standing up for what you believe in is fine but you'd be surprised how many people value their lives over their beliefs. Sometimes discretion is the better part of keeping your skin intact.

You should see what they do to people of differing religious beliefs over there. By they I mean extremists of course.

 

[Lyri]

I dunno if I could blame the filmmaker if only because this kind of reaction is unacceptable.

Basically anyone who would resort to violence because they are offended is an irrational individual and trying to tip toe around them is an unacceptable request.

These folks are insane, period, and there should never be an expectation of cow towing around insanity.

There are plenty of non-religious examples (gangs was mentioned here I think), there is no physical protection from the insane people that you offend but I also don't think there should be an expectation of guilt on your part if insane people do insane things.

These rioters be trippin', is basically what I'm saying.

Just seems to me that they are insecure in their beliefs. When was the last time a bunch of "insert any other religion here" gathered together and started tearing down shit because someone made an offensive comic, video, or song about their most precious figure head?

I'm not ignorant that these things HAVE happened in the past, but how common in modern day is this sort of thing? Just seems like its only one particular sect, everyone else bitches but mostly from weblogs or fox news. Not with knifes, bombs, etc.

I wouldn't really call them insecure in their religion, they're just religious fanatics and every religion has them.
Don't read this as a justification, I can smell that one coming from a mile off as I write this.

You can't really over look the film makers part in all of this just because someone else reacted in a worse way.
If you give an angry person a loaded gun you expect someone to get hurt, yet again I'm not saying this justifies their actions.
Had he not made that film then those people wouldn't have died.

 

[wulf3n]

When you suggest that the film maker is more at fault than the people actually committing murder it certainly sounds like it.

There are a lot of pages to this thread so I'll forgive the slight.

I said earlier I advocate none of their behaviour, I just believe that blame should be placed equally.

So you're saying murder and making a movie are equivalent.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

snip

The blame is not equal, not even close. The person who made this movie is undoubtedly an asshole and one of the more successful trolls I have ever seen. However the people in the countries responsible have chosen to respond to trolling by attacking and murdering people while burning down embassy's.

Now this would not be a just response morally even if the people responsible for the movie were inside the buildings that the rioters attacked but to make the matters even worse all of the people killed as a result of the riots were people whom have nothing to do with the movie and some of whom are not even from the same country as the film makers.

Now I would not be happy if someone made this movie about something I care about but being angry and offended IS NOT a justification for wanton murder and chaos.

By punishing the person who made this movie even a little bit we send the message that other people can MAKE men commit random murder just with words. This is false and it it is true it means every thing that the man says in his video is the truth.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

snip

this in so many words

 

[Lyri]

So you're saying murder and making a movie are equivalent.

No but you're being wilfully ignorant of the actual implications of what I said.

I mean you could just look above the post you made.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

So you're saying murder and making a movie are equivalent.

No but you're being wilfully ignorant of the actual implications of what I said.

I mean you could just look above the post you made.

How far are you willing to go in controlling the actions of others to stop buthurt extremists from going into rage mode

 

[wulf3n]

So you're saying murder and making a movie are equivalent.

No but you're being wilfully ignorant of the actual implications of what I said.

I mean you could just look above the post you made.

You said someone who made a bad movie is EQUALLY to blame as people who commited murder. how am I being wilfully ignorant.