Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[Kopikatsu]

When Religulous was released, there was no uprising of violent protests/riots even from extremists of the religions shown in that movie.

So I'm thinking that this whole situation is a problem specific to Islam and as such, something should be done about it. Especially considering that they've technically committed three acts of war in attacking the German, American, and UK embassies.

 

[Ryotknife]

When Religulous was released, there was no uprising of violent protests/riots even from extremists of the religions shown in that movie.

So I'm thinking that this whole situation is a problem specific to Islam and as such, something should be done about it. Especially considering that they've technically committed three acts of war in attacking the German, American, and UK embassies.

Hell, Xenosaga and Final Fantasy tactics demonize Christianity much worse than this filmmaker did with Islam.

spoiler tags incometh:

Spoiler

In Xenosaga the purpose of Christianity was a weapon to destroy humanity should God get fed up with us. The antagonist, Wilhelm, is possibly Tiberius Caesar Augustus (as in the Roman empire) who opposed Christianity in order to save the universe. Wilhelm eventually manipulates/commands the military zealots of this religion for his own purposes. Might have got some details wrong, Xenosaga had a hell of a complicated story.

Final fantasy tactics Christianity was a clever manipulation by a cadre of demons.

 

[the clockmaker]

Those countries have not evolved and gone through similar experiences hence why certain laws have not changed/evolved. I have always felt-- Leave them alone and let them progress as natural but after these riots over a bloody film on the internet... get a grip.

The film has been taken down.
It's the director's problem and not the innocent people in the Embassy. Have they not forgotten how hard we fought with them to keep Gadaffi from breathing down their necks?

Oh, I bet Libya won't forget about the US occupation.
And it's spelled "Gaddafi".

Sorry, but US occupation, what US occupation? So far as I can tell western forces havn't occupied libya since the days of the empire.

 

[DjinnFor]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

How is foreign radicals invading German soil in any way related to them silencing American citizens by protest, violence, and murder?

The two aren't even remotely similar.

So "He/she was asking for it" is now a valid defense?
Fact is, I can't draw Mohammed without pissing off a cloud of violent extremists. Who will then use violence and terror to try to control my actions. Do we now negotiate the sale of rights with terrorists?

This is not a bear. This is a belligerent barbarian walking into our backyard and demanding we not look at him funny. There is only one valid response to this trampling on our freedom, and it is not "Yeah, we deserve anything you do to us."

Btw, the "Freedom" part of "Freedom of Speech" has nothing to do with Freedom from any and all consequences of speech, but rather just freedom from government oppression.

If a bunch of people don't like what you say it's not the government's job to stop them. The reason for opposing violent offensive actions by rogue civilians of a foreign country on U.S. soil has nothing to do with "Freedom of Speech" and everything to do with the fact that they're committing violent offensive actions on U.S. soil.

This is literally not a "Freedom of Speech" issue at all.

 

[Terramax]

Does anyone REALLY think this had anything to do with that crappy video posted to Youtube? This is the backlash at US involvement in the region over the last 10 years.

I don't think it's even to do with that. More like just an excuse for people to act like barbarians. Identical to that seen in the London riots earlier this year, if not worse.

You have people who have lived in crushing poverty, under the rule of harsh dictatorships for their whole lives. You have a history of US meddling in the Middle East going back 60 years.

People seem to forget that the US created the "Iran problem" themselves when they deposed Mosaddegh. From the Wikipedia page:

Mossadegh, Mossadeq, Mosadeck, or Musaddiq (16 June 1882 ? 5 March 1967), was the democratically elected[1][2][3] Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953 when he was overthrown in a coup d'état orchestrated by the British MI6 and the United States CIA.

Iran had a democratically elected leader but he wanted to nationalize Iran's oil so the US and the UK OVERTHREW THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT and installed a Monarchy with the previously deposed Shah. The Shah had his own secret police and many people were "disappeared" and never heard from again. There was only so much the Iranian people could take and certain religious figures used the unrest as an opportunity to seize power for themselves. Now Iran and the US must live the theocracy that has arisen.

Coming back to more recent events the US and allies have waged what looks a lot like a terrorist campaign in many middles eastern countries. We are not just operating in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have used drone strikes to attack targets in Pakistan, a supposed ally, as well as the aforementioned countries, and I am willing to bet in even more countries which the US is not willing to confirm. We have used tactics like hitting a home, a funeral, or a wedding with a drone, then 10 minutes later when the rescue services show up, ambulance, fire, etc., we hit with a follow up drone and kill the rescue workers! They even have their own doublespeak for it, since the US has pledged not to carry out assassinations anymore they call them "targeted killing". Look it up.

But wait, there's more! There have been the economic sanctions, the freezing of assets. Cutting some terrorists off from their money? Sure. Cutting off some aid as well? Yup. Making an already impoverished people poorer while not really affecting the ruling regime? You bet.

Next on the list are the all the people "extra-ordinarily reconditioned", some of whom are probably linked to terrorist organizations, several of whom are assuredly not. Look at the German citizen who was detained, and many others who after years of detainment and torture were released. These people come out totally screwed up mentally and physically. The German guy is a prime example, go google him.

I could fill up 10 pages of thread with more examples of this stuff but bottom line is the US and allies have been shitting on the Middle East for decades. The people over there are angry, poor, and with little hope of a better tomorrow which we all take for granted here in the West. It is easy to overlook all this stuff as an American citizen, I know I don't like thinking that my elected government is killing and maiming people and overthrowing governments. If you want to reply calling me a communist go ahead but I won't be responding to any further comments. I'm an American citizen and still proud of that fact, that is why we need to shine a light on this and not just buy the frankly condescending and insulting "a youtube video made 'em do it" BS.

...so what does this have to do with raiding a GERMAN embassy?

 

[josh4president]

...so what does this have to do with raiding a GERMAN embassy?

Probably because these were hipster fanatics and storming the American embassy was too 'mainstream' for them

 

[Sexy Devil]

Really late to this party but is this genuinely all because on guy made some stupid Youtube video? You pretty much can't go 5 minutes on the internet without seeing something racist, why is this video causing such an uproar?

 

[Nobuoa Schniell]

Really late to this party but is this genuinely all because on guy made some stupid Youtube video? You pretty much can't go 5 minutes on the internet without seeing something racist, why is this video causing such an uproar?

Make no mistake, the issue everyone should have been focused on isn't that someone made a religion-bashing video, it's that people reacted so incredibly violently to it. The fact that the president and other US officials immediately attacked the video's producer rather than condemn the actions of those monsters who are killing and destroying for the sake of their own pride shows how cowardly we all are on matters of religion.

 

[UberNoodle]

Spoiler: Some very odd related searches. Especially the one I underlined.

Anyway, all of this is rather excessive over a film is it not? Somebody needs to calm this whole situation down. Especially since it seems Germany didn't do a huge amount to be attacked.

I do love some of the comments as well.

Of course, we are in a culture in which films are everyday things which we dedicate much of our free time to watching, discussing and collecting. I think it's pretty safe to say that that isn't the experience of most people in the Sudan and thereabouts. According to reports, there is a genuine belief that the propaganda film which set off this tinderbox is the most popular film in American cinemas right now. It just shows my point.

 

[UberNoodle]

Really late to this party but is this genuinely all because on guy made some stupid Youtube video? You pretty much can't go 5 minutes on the internet without seeing something racist, why is this video causing such an uproar?

See my post above but change 'film' to 'Internet video', and 'cinema' to ... water cooler or whatever. You get my point. Saying "but it's just a film/video/one guy's opinion/etc!" truly underlines in red permanent marker, the vast difference between the Western affluent and secular reality, and the reality which people in Sudan, Libya, Egypt, etc have.

 

[Starke]

Sorry, but US occupation, what US occupation? So far as I can tell western forces havn't occupied libya since the days of the empire.

Well, Libya was under Italian control at least as recently as WWII, and was under joint British/French control until 1947. If that's what you mean by "the days of the empire", then fantastic.

...so what does this have to do with raiding a GERMAN embassy?

Because very frequently, with the Middle East, we're prone, as westerners to look for specific and direct grievances. That is to say, things like "you bombed us, now we hate you," but, very often the grievances aren't quite so clear cut. Western actions in the region, have a tendency to generate resentment across borders, and the people there have a long memory.

For a lot of Arabs, the ousting of Mossedeq is viewed as a flashcard for western hypocrisy and interference, not just Iranians.

That said, why the Germans? I can guess, but there's two possibilities, 1) they were after any western European nation, if that's the case, then mission accomplished, 2) their grievances with Germany stem from Germany's abysmal treatment of immigrants. Though I kinda suspect more the former than the latter.

EDIT: Third possibility: Germany did something to piss them off that I'm not remembering... which is entirely possible.

 

[Starke]

Spoiler: Some very odd related searches. Especially the one I underlined.

Anyway, all of this is rather excessive over a film is it not? Somebody needs to calm this whole situation down. Especially since it seems Germany didn't do a huge amount to be attacked.

I do love some of the comments as well.

Of course, we are in a culture in which films are everyday things which we dedicate much of our free time to watching, discussing and collecting. I think it's pretty safe to say that that isn't the experience of most people in the Sudan and thereabouts. According to reports, there is a genuine belief that the propaganda film which set off this tinderbox is the most popular film in American cinemas right now. It just shows my point.

There's also been the genuine belief that the film was authorized by the US government. That is to say, people from countries where their government must sign off on every film, are assuming it's the same here, and that the film was created with the blessing of the US government.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

Sorry, but US occupation, what US occupation? So far as I can tell western forces havn't occupied libya since the days of the empire.

Well, Libya was under Italian control at least as recently as WWII, and was under joint British/French control until 1947. If that's what you mean by "the days of the empire", then fantastic.

...so what does this have to do with raiding a GERMAN embassy?

Because very frequently, with the Middle East, we're prone, as westerners to look for specific and direct grievances. That is to say, things like "you bombed us, now we hate you," but, very often the grievances aren't quite so clear cut. Western actions in the region, have a tendency to generate resentment across borders, and the people there have a long memory.

For a lot of Arabs, the ousting of Mossedeq is viewed as a flashcard for western hypocrisy and interference, not just Iranians.

That said, why the Germans? I can guess, but there's two possibilities, 1) they were after any western European nation, if that's the case, then mission accomplished, 2) their grievances with Germany stem from Germany's abysmal treatment of immigrants. Though I kinda suspect more the former than the latter.

EDIT: Third possibility: Germany did something to piss them off that I'm not remembering... which is entirely possible.

Well, germany is usually quite popular with the fundamentalistic, fanatic muslim crowd for trying to eradicate the jews.
And are immigrants really treated that badly in Germany, when compared to other western nations?

 

[iRevanchist]

Yeah, I'd say I'm defininetly on the free speech side of this debate. If someone wants to offend people with their words, they can go ahead. and if someone wants to call them a ***** ******* ****** ******* on national television because of it, they can go ahead. In America, you can say and express whatever you want, as long as it isn't violent. These a*holes, burning people because of some dude on the internet, are completely in the wrong. The correct, civilized way to express how offended you are is by calling that person a f*g on COD and be done with it. well, at least it's slightly more civilized.

 

[Starke]

Well, germany is usually quite popular with the fundamentalistic, fanatic muslim crowd for trying to eradicate the jews.
And are immigrants really treated that badly in Germany, when compared to other western nations?

Yes.

France deserves special mention for their efforts in pissing off, and pissing on Muslims, but Germany is not a happy place for immigrants, and there's some real (and specific) prejudice against Turkish immigrants. With a real risk for anyone from the Middle East and North Africa getting lumped in.

Also, Germany's efforts are remembered fondly in some quarters, but that's mostly with the anti-Israel crowd, rather then the main line fundamentalist fanatics.

 

[Karadalis]

Right... abysmal... let me tell you something: Turkish people in germany have it by a long stretch more easier then mexican people in the US...

And despite all the conflict points between christians in germany and muslems... you still have a metric shit ton of germans still demonstrating in the streets for tolerance and multi cultural living with each other. Our prominent figureheads in TV are preaching day in day out how we have to be open minded and learn to live with each other.

Where as in US television you have figureheads that try to make you fear the mexicans taking over the US of A

And dont give me that crap about immigrants not being treated right.. a muslem in germany has it easier then a christian in saudi arabia. Atleast we dont throw people into jail and torture them because they bring their holy book into our country.

Germany is by no means a "goodguy" state in the grand scheme of things.. actually its pretty much out for itselfe first before anything else, but to say that the immigrant situation in germany is "abysmal"...

 

[the clockmaker]

Sorry, but US occupation, what US occupation? So far as I can tell western forces havn't occupied libya since the days of the empire.

Well, Libya was under Italian control at least as recently as WWII, and was under joint British/French control until 1947. If that's what you mean by "the days of the empire", then fantastic.

Yep it actually is, the empire normally considered to have actually died out around 1947 when india became independent.
which is interesting, but irrelevant as I was responding to someone speaking about a US occupation in a vaguely confrontational manner. So if you could actually respond to that as opposed to pointlessly trying to one up people, that'd be great.

capatcha: high horse

 

[Mack Case]

Oh my god, look at the comments on those articles. do these people not realize that hate-speech like that is exactly what causes problems like this?

 

[Mr F.]

A few quick points.

One) Sucks that more people have died.

Two) Stop trying to fight bigotry with bigotry. It just ends with Nationalism which ends in a lot of young men getting sent off to kill a lot of other young men. It also makes you sound like a penis.

Three) The film is not something to be taken in a vacuum. It is not "Oh, a single film was made and suddenly people are angry". For many, MANY people in the Arab world, America (And the west) are seen as agressors, people who bring conflict, people who lie, people who are decietful and people who simply do not give a shit about them. This racism, this stereotype, comes out of many years of direct and indirect conflict, the years of empire, just about everything really. The storming of these embassies, these protests, it is not JUST about the film. Consider it to be the "Straw that broke the camels back". And before you say "Well, that back gets broken a lot". Yes, Yes it does.

I grew up around people who were losing relatives on a weekly basis due to the Iraq war. I grew up around people who were losing relatives on a monthly basis thanks to Israeli assaults in Palestine. I grew up being driven around by Afghani taxi drivers, refugees, men who would state how much they hate the Taliban but wish that the Americans could learn to aim. It is not about the film people.

It is about decades, if not centuries, of outside involvement that have led to little more then misery and death.

Four) (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT ONE) Freedom of speech gives you freedom to be a dick. True. But in many countries, freedom of speech is limited. This racist fundamentalist maniac would not have been able to create his little trailer in a cynical attempt to destablise Egypt (The real reason behind this. Go read more people) if he was in the UK. It would have been stopped because you cannot preach hatred.

Some things should not be covered by freedom of speech. And hate speech is one of them. Laws need to be changed to make sense. I mean, in the UK we have freedom to gather in public places. You know, essential freedom behind any functioning democarcy (Which we are not) but after the rise of Fascism, we banned the freedom to march in uniform as a part of a political party. We did this cause it would break the back of the Fascist movement. Sure, it is limiting a freedom, but it makes sense.

People should stop hiding behind "Freedom of Speech". You are free to say something and you are free to be punched for it. And when the things that you say will cause riots, because that is your aim, when you are trying to cause misery and death, YOU SHOULD BE STOPPED. You do not have freedom of speech in the states, many things are prevented. This film should have been stopped in its tracks.

Freedom of speech should not take precedent over freedom to continue breathing. And when what you say will cause people to stop breathing, when your AIM is to say something that will stop people from breathing, well, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO FUCKING SPEAK.

Peace out.

 

[GTwander]

...do these people not realize that hate-speech like that is exactly what causes problems like this?

I believe it's kerosene and matches that cause problems like this.
Most people can shrug off idiocy, while some people have been looking for an excuse to use up the rest of their BBQ supplies on the local library for years.