I think Borderlands 2 does it right, on your map there will be a big circle and somewhere in there is your objective, it still makes you work for it. Just not completely aimlessly.
Get Rid of the Dang Arrows
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
In games like Skyrim, you don't have an objective marker; you can look for the darn cave/chest/shrine/tower for ages. Of course you lose yourself better.
In Assassin's Creed, you gotta know what you're running after...
My solution: OPTiONAL DiSPLAY. Maybe just hints & a compass instead of a dumb arrow.
In Assassin's Creed, you gotta know what you're running after...
My solution: OPTiONAL DiSPLAY. Maybe just hints & a compass instead of a dumb arrow.
This whole article is pretty much a list of reasons why Yahtzee should be playing Dark Souls. Meanwhile, his Dark Souls article is a list of excuses about why he doesn't have to understand a game before passing judgement. Dark Souls doesn't start bad and get good like Yahtzee seems to imply in that article. It's good from the start. But you may not appreciate it until you understand what you're playing and why it is the way it is. Back before video games as a medium were reduced to a homogenized series of endless button and HUD tutorials, that really wasn't uncommon. Coming to grips with something intimidating and strange is how you used to distinguish great innovative titles from trash. Now if you haven't played it fifty times before, it must be doing something wrong.xear0 said:
So, you want games that don't hold your hand, but you literally won't even try to play the most iconic game in that style. They'll start makin' 'em when you start playin' 'em.
Goddamn it, would you just play Dark Souls and give it a serious try this time? lol
XCom is pretty good- Leading you to crashed spaceships by the use of fire, only leading you to enemies by way of your squad members "hearing something", and then only if you're being too cautious. Treats you like an adult. Then stabs you in the face because you've walked into what was, to be fair, a pretty obvious trap.
I kind of like the Elder scrolls approach, although they might even tone it down a little bit.
What I mean is, once you find something it gets marked on the map. And you can add map markers yourself. That way you can easily find new stuff but you'll still have to discover and search to find them initially. What should be different is that I don't think you need any kind of pointer on the HUD, just allow someone to pull up the map half screen, maby disable running for that mode. Allowing people to navigate relativly easy if they just wanna go where they need to go.
Additionally I do believe that a game, or if you are fussy about that sort of thing only the easy difficulty levels, should have a "give me a tip" function that would flash you a bit of an arrow of something. Maby give it a cooldown. Because games still need to be more widely accesible and some people are naturally terrible terrible path finders.
What I mean is, once you find something it gets marked on the map. And you can add map markers yourself. That way you can easily find new stuff but you'll still have to discover and search to find them initially. What should be different is that I don't think you need any kind of pointer on the HUD, just allow someone to pull up the map half screen, maby disable running for that mode. Allowing people to navigate relativly easy if they just wanna go where they need to go.
Additionally I do believe that a game, or if you are fussy about that sort of thing only the easy difficulty levels, should have a "give me a tip" function that would flash you a bit of an arrow of something. Maby give it a cooldown. Because games still need to be more widely accesible and some people are naturally terrible terrible path finders.
Playing Vampire the masquerade bloodlines atm and I have to say the fact that there isnt any marker dosnt bother me at all. It actually make finding some stuff rewarding (some time the game dosn't even say the place you need to go you just have to use a bit of logic) instead of just following the written path. Though I would say it work very well in vampire because of the rather small maps.
It also make the missions much more fun when you have to search the whole level and have to figures things out yourself has you progress. Oh I found this key! lets see where it fits and will lead me!
But yea I don't mind arrows in huge non-linear game if the quests objectives isnt to find an item/something in an a place and the the arrow is right above the thing (instead of disapearing when u enter the said place) I'm looking at you bethesda.
It also make the missions much more fun when you have to search the whole level and have to figures things out yourself has you progress. Oh I found this key! lets see where it fits and will lead me!
But yea I don't mind arrows in huge non-linear game if the quests objectives isnt to find an item/something in an a place and the the arrow is right above the thing (instead of disapearing when u enter the said place) I'm looking at you bethesda.
Actually Mr. Croshaw, though I know you're just joking, I think you have it right about for you. The developers, studios, QAs, etc are much MUCH more likely to reflect yourself and conditions and the more if not numerous than heartfelt anedotal feedback..well will be from You. You the games reviewer, developer/exdeveloper, etc. Much as MB ends up pointing out there is a list of buttons for "the academy" they feel gleeful to push and prop up as art or Best or etc.
These things are likely there in no small part no indicators was tried in open world and linear and etc. IT didn't appeal to the lowest common denominator enmass (Shenmue vs GTAIII) or it has been complemented or worked in for the people they hire to make sure they are critically well received, reviewed, and wanted.
I am not *blaming* You or you. Just saying this is likely the cause and the reason it isn't likely to be unadopted until it becomes restandardrized. Low or incharacter UI HUD though seems to be part of the goals of design that was kind of part of AC series and other things. As well as the read flashes as to health bars and etc.
Its not just an image problem. Games have just comfortably reached a tech plateau they can try communicating richly. Of course anyone betting the graphics race is over is going to lose money. But I do seriously think if only by circumstance a new intuitive understood set of tropes or tells are upcoming to be shared not around game play mechanics (regen health, drop/pop/shot 3rd person manshooters, brown is real) but conveyance of information, direction and etc.
One issue with games though taking their cure from movies is offscreen and before shooting a there are like four people and their staff working on making the actor themselves go, stand, and look where needed and wanted for needs of the film its one of the key talents a director is judged on. That can be...invisible or hard to translate with the interactive media of storytelling especially with core group who wants to defy and outthink you and general audience you fear is always confused and at the edge of bolting or losing interest or belief in your product.
I still say the jump to 3D happened and was forced too soon before everyone is ready and only now we seem to be seriously thinking and cataloguing a full methodology not just... well stumbling on something that works and spamming it.
These things are likely there in no small part no indicators was tried in open world and linear and etc. IT didn't appeal to the lowest common denominator enmass (Shenmue vs GTAIII) or it has been complemented or worked in for the people they hire to make sure they are critically well received, reviewed, and wanted.
I am not *blaming* You or you. Just saying this is likely the cause and the reason it isn't likely to be unadopted until it becomes restandardrized. Low or incharacter UI HUD though seems to be part of the goals of design that was kind of part of AC series and other things. As well as the read flashes as to health bars and etc.
Its not just an image problem. Games have just comfortably reached a tech plateau they can try communicating richly. Of course anyone betting the graphics race is over is going to lose money. But I do seriously think if only by circumstance a new intuitive understood set of tropes or tells are upcoming to be shared not around game play mechanics (regen health, drop/pop/shot 3rd person manshooters, brown is real) but conveyance of information, direction and etc.
One issue with games though taking their cure from movies is offscreen and before shooting a there are like four people and their staff working on making the actor themselves go, stand, and look where needed and wanted for needs of the film its one of the key talents a director is judged on. That can be...invisible or hard to translate with the interactive media of storytelling especially with core group who wants to defy and outthink you and general audience you fear is always confused and at the edge of bolting or losing interest or belief in your product.
I still say the jump to 3D happened and was forced too soon before everyone is ready and only now we seem to be seriously thinking and cataloguing a full methodology not just... well stumbling on something that works and spamming it.
Hardly invalidates my argument. Lousy level design is lousy level design and objective markers are just the shit frosting on the shit cake. If its possible to turn off objective markers then generally 1) the game can stand on its own without them or 2)the devs just dont give a shit that they made a game that cant be played without help and dont care if you find that out.Raiyan 1.0 said:
Some people Need objective markers even in well designed games, just taking them out isnt a good answer; Look on them as a parameter like easy/normal/hard. Some people can find a cigarette butt in a pile of identical cigarette butts, however they suck at combat, while others could chop up a horde of goons with a butter knife but would have trouble finding their way out of a house without a map. More options means more inclusiveness, more inclusiveness means more people enjoying games.
I think the reason for markers is because we are often unable to ask NPCs where given objects/buildings/people are. I feel like games should allow us to ask basic questions that a normal person could ask. If you allowed this sort of question, objective markers become unnecessary in many cases.
Thinking about it. I think the arrows encourage lazy map design. For exemple Skyrim and Oblivion and the likes are just big empty maps with important place far apart from each other.
The removal of markers would encourage smarter and more intersting designs imo.
Maps and the ability to put markers yourself is nice though!
The removal of markers would encourage smarter and more intersting designs imo.
Maps and the ability to put markers yourself is nice though!
As I recall from games like Silent Hill 3 and MegaMan Legends 2, where you had to go to a map screen for your map (or a large enough version to see anything), the pause menu becomes visited every time a room is no longer bothered with. So a simple toggle seems silly..
Also, I'd like to point out Phantasy Star 1. The game featured maze-like first-person RPG dungeon crawling. An interesting design that was lovely on the eyes.
Having absolutely no map, however, any location that was creatively complex became a nightmare if you didn't sit about and pencil a map during the entirety of game play. It was certainly a unique feature only a few years later where a large view of the area and maps replaced it. However, looking back, the process is tedious and stops you to a grinding halt every time a bit of creativity is put into an area's layout. As such, games like Megami Tensei of that time (which had an active map menu, but the same first-person perspective) feel like they haven't aged nearly as bad.
So, I understand the sentiment. It would work rather well if you could grasp a rather healthy view of your surroundings (empty fields, etc where your view was essentially a map), but games like Infamous and Assassin's Creed 1-2 have you going passed so many similar-looking houses, people, and vehicles in congested environments during so many points in the games that removing a map altogether would require you to climb buildings just to get your bearings.
Unless.. you make your own map. In which case, you get a tedious self-made auto-map. Make that a game mechanic and you get the barely successful Etrian Odyssey series.
Also, I'd like to point out Phantasy Star 1. The game featured maze-like first-person RPG dungeon crawling. An interesting design that was lovely on the eyes.
Having absolutely no map, however, any location that was creatively complex became a nightmare if you didn't sit about and pencil a map during the entirety of game play. It was certainly a unique feature only a few years later where a large view of the area and maps replaced it. However, looking back, the process is tedious and stops you to a grinding halt every time a bit of creativity is put into an area's layout. As such, games like Megami Tensei of that time (which had an active map menu, but the same first-person perspective) feel like they haven't aged nearly as bad.
So, I understand the sentiment. It would work rather well if you could grasp a rather healthy view of your surroundings (empty fields, etc where your view was essentially a map), but games like Infamous and Assassin's Creed 1-2 have you going passed so many similar-looking houses, people, and vehicles in congested environments during so many points in the games that removing a map altogether would require you to climb buildings just to get your bearings.
Unless.. you make your own map. In which case, you get a tedious self-made auto-map. Make that a game mechanic and you get the barely successful Etrian Odyssey series.
I think in general, markers should appear when you ask for them, but not before. Red Faction Guerilla did the breadcrumb trail thing, but I didn't complain because it only appeared when I opened up the map and asked it "Where the hell is the road to that damn mission?" They shouldn't be there all the time, or you end up staring at the minimap instead of the actual game. But they should definitely be there, because inevitably someone will miss whatever cues you put into the level design and you shouldn't leave them running in circles and getting frustrated.
Possibly the simplest direction marker I've seen is in Mirror's Edge: Hold down a button, and your character looks in the direction you should be going. Simple, no HUD elements, and you don't have to stop and dig out the map when cops are chasing you.
Possibly the simplest direction marker I've seen is in Mirror's Edge: Hold down a button, and your character looks in the direction you should be going. Simple, no HUD elements, and you don't have to stop and dig out the map when cops are chasing you.
Fantastic article, Yahtzee. I remember the magic of Morrowind, and writing down footnotes on my map and looking for landmarks to complete quests. I think that's one of the biggest reasons why Oblivion and Skyrim don't quite have the same immersion and magic to them. Quests have become lazy, and so has completing them.
Also, can we talk about the absolute worse instance of this? The only thing I remember from Fable 2 and Fable 3 was a glowing breadcrumb trail. Tragic.
Taking on board this mentality, I just don't understand why they can't make them a toggle feature.Zhukov said:
Personally I found Dishonoured was far more engrossing without all the markers (I prefer minimal HUDs in general), though when it came to mission objectives the game was rather vague about directions and didn't lend itself to an organic experience. The fact I was given the ability to customise the interface (on a console believe it or not) was remarkably satisfying.
Is it really that hard to turn aspects of HUD on or off?
That said, I'm seeing more and more games giving the player some control over the amount of information being fed to them via HUD markers. Hopefully this customisability will catch on on future major releases.
This is actually a much more fun way to play the game. I didn't particularly like Skyrim, but the most fun I had in it was when I started off the game and decided not to use any quest markers, compasses or in game maps. All I had to help me find my way was the map that came in the game case. I ended up identifying major rivers and using the direction they flowed to help orient myself. Unfortunately this didn't last long because the only way to turn off all of those is make the entire HUD invisible, which leads to other difficulties like accidentally stealing people's stuff all the time.samahain said:
I agree with Yahtzee though, however I think that most games can't just drop the objective pointers without any other changes. They need to make sure you know where you should be going next and what you should be doing next. Even something as simple as more descriptive dialog could accommodate for that though. In too many games I just find myself running from objective to objective without having any idea why or what exactly I'm doing. I think that's a big flaw in a game if I am able to complete an entire level without having the slightest idea of what is being accomplished or done.
I do like the idea of more natural exploring without quest markers. But to do it properly, that can't be a decision to make at the end of development. Sure, you can turn of the quest marker in Oblivion, but since the quests assume you have the marker, the quest dialogue won't give you enough information. I think Oblivion has one quest where you're asked to follow a written description without markers. And it works, eventually. But the game world would have to be radically redesigned to make every quest location findable from a written description. It would be fun to ask directions from civilians, but unless every civilian knows everything, it will become a big hassle to hunt down the right civilian every time.
I just worry that doing away with quest markers in open world games will either be games you need to play with the wiki open just to find anything, or would require a world that would A: take much more effort to make, and given a fixed budget will be smaller and B: may feel more unnatural because of the large number of easily identifiable landmarks spread around it.
In any case, I do NOT want to play a computer game that requires me to keep a pen and paper on hand. If I really have to manually record plot-relevant information, give me a way to do it in-game. A big reason why I couldn't get into Star Control 2. If the game wants you to find a planet based on coordinates that get mentioned once, please add a damn chat-log that lets me search in everything that's said to me. It wasn't that much text.
I just worry that doing away with quest markers in open world games will either be games you need to play with the wiki open just to find anything, or would require a world that would A: take much more effort to make, and given a fixed budget will be smaller and B: may feel more unnatural because of the large number of easily identifiable landmarks spread around it.
In any case, I do NOT want to play a computer game that requires me to keep a pen and paper on hand. If I really have to manually record plot-relevant information, give me a way to do it in-game. A big reason why I couldn't get into Star Control 2. If the game wants you to find a planet based on coordinates that get mentioned once, please add a damn chat-log that lets me search in everything that's said to me. It wasn't that much text.
Well, until Sectoids which I knew where hiding over there suddenly decided to teleport behind me.Al_ said:
On topic: I like arrows. I make it a mission to AVOID the arrows at first, but then decide following the damn things is better once I realise the developers couldn't really be screwed adding anything more for the curious bunch.
Turning off arrows, mini-maps would be nice (as many mentioned). It can't be too hard, to turn off flashing arrows, or to hide mini-maps, no?