Ghost in the Shell Casting Shows We Need More Than White Feminism

Darkmantle

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,031
0
0
theNater said:
Qvar said:
So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.
People can be so inconsistent.

Reminds me of a time I was out on the lake with my buddies. Our boat springs a leak, and we all grab buckets. Apparently, if I scoop water from the boat into the lake, everything's hunky-dory, but when I scoop water from the lake into the boat suddenly I'm "a maniac" and "trying to get us all killed". I mean, come on, is moving water from one place to another okay or not?
Why hello false equivocation, how are we doing today?

But oh no, lets really commit to this analogy shall we? So what are you saying about the end game for white people in movies then? That you perceive white actors as an intrusion into you and your buddies movie industry, and you need to take them ALL out or the industry will sink? So from your analogy as it is presented, you want the movie industry (the boat) to be totally empty of white people (the water) As a matter of fact, the boat would be on top of the water, so you want minorities to sit above whites as a ruling class, with no whites allowed into your ideal movie industry, you fascist you!

You want to over analyze? I can over analyze.

But it's not as fun when someone is doing it to every word you say is it?
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
1
0
Darkmantle said:
But it's not as fun when someone is doing it to every word you say is it?
Actually, it is. I keep getting these great mixed images as I read your post. Like the film industry sinking: does the water recede when they shut the cameras off? If a director is in the middle of Nebraska and gets an idea for a movie, does the entire US sink, or does the water just appear around right there? "Hey, I've got a brilliant blub blub blub..."

And I don't know why, just the image of a boat being moved along over a sea of people just gives me the giggles. It's been that way since at least Women and Men:


Good times.
 

Pinkilicious

New member
Sep 24, 2014
74
0
0
Popido said:
Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.

Maybe they just wanted a big name lead rather than act of racism.

Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?
She has the mass produced doll look and has hard time identifying herself.
That last line is somewhat amusing considering the type of criticisms typically leveraged at bad Hollywood actors...
also yes I believe she had one episode where she was in a different body as a sting, it was just that she is preferred to use the mass produced model with modifications inside. I think this was in the episode with the shota who she offered herself too but then he declined. That was an amusing tease to the audience like they were saying "Well maybe he would, but it is not that kind of show!"
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.
She isn't a robot. Ghost In The Shell deals with the idea of transhumanism, and the idea that what makes you human transcends anything physical, including the brain. In this case it's possible to transfer someone's mind and soul into a a purely artificial body. As a result she has an entirely mechanical body, but is entirely human. Throughout the various storylines you see various characters that have various levels of augementation ranging from regular Cyberpunk Cyborgs to brain downloads.

Of course the series is also ultimately anti-mysticism despite what some people think as one of the defining problems is that people have gotten such a firm understanding of the human brain that they can not only transfer brains into artificial bodies, but also program brains like a computer. In this future where most people at least have some level of cyberware allowing them to interface with computers, criminals go through the internet and invade people's minds in order to program them.

There are various storylines, but one of the big "opponents" they run into is a synthetic life form, that is to say computer code that evolved on it's own into a living thing "born in the primordial sea of information", a true information based intelligence as opposed to an AI or Artificial Intelligence which is a synthetic awareness created artificially by someone else. Part of what makes things freaky is the realization that you wind up with computers programming humans on their own.

That said part of the entire "Matoko Kusanagi" concept is that she's human but was recruited by the military who gave her the perfect body in exchange for her giving up most of her early memories and undergoing personality modification. The idea being to create a perfect, compassionless, soldier. This was done during a huge war between the east and west where Japan wound up dominating and becoming the undisputed world superpower, largely because of soldiers like this and the use of terror tactics. Without a war to fight people like Matoko wound up in some awkward positions, a lot of them joining the police or law enforcement. Matoko herself is part of a special police unit based loosely on the Shinsengumi that is tasked to defend Japan against all threats, especially high tech ones, and is given a sort of "License To Kill" and encouraged to use terror tactics (though this mandate does change somewhat as they conflict with certain government objectives). As well as she fights Matoko's big talent is in brain hacking, which oftentimes causes her to wax poetic on the nature of humanity (at least in her internal monologue) along with her own nature, as well as how everything interrelates as she deals with various "awarenesses" both natural, artificial, and everything in between.

That's probably more than you wanted to know about the character. That said given her reasons for being in the body she uses and the fact that she's basically a wartime terror machine, working as a fascist police officer in a world with strong overtones of Japanese payback power fantasies... it makes little sense for her to not appear ethnically Japanese. Technically a person can transfer into an artificial body that looks like anything (they even visit factories where such bodies are made and see them taken over ... more than once in various stories I believe) but she likely wouldn't. She doesn't do deep cover, her idea of infiltration is invisibility. All the undercover ops. and stuff are for the normal police and the like, as a general rule of her unit is involved it's not a normal situation, being something with out of control technology, politically sensitive, or a case where they want to make a big mess by way of setting an example (ie government thuggery).
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Okay Carly Smith / Rose Of Battle, I agree with you here for the most part. I don't like ethnicity swapping established characters in either direction. I also think this character being Japanese is a big part of both the character and the world setting. Take a lot of ethnic liberties with it or get politically correct and your just doing general transhumanist Cyberpunk, it won't be "Ghost In The Shell" anymore.

That said, who do you think should play the character? "Asian" is not an ethnicity and really this is very Japanese Centric. Consider also most "Asians" hate the Japanese, and the Japanese feel superior to them. One of the reasons why westerners are sometimes considered so racist is how we tend to lump all this together especially when we shouldn't. One example of this was how someone thought it would be a great idea to cast a Korean pop star called "Rain" as the lead in a movie called "Ninja Warrior" to much mockery. To a lot of Japanese this is like casting a monkey as a human (lower order of human, the Japanese are very racist) and the Koreans aren't exactly fond of The Japanese given that while it's not as famous as what Japan did to China, lots of abuse was thrown at them as well.

To properly do this character we need an ethnic Japanese girl with almost perfect looks, and in all likelihood a natural looking, but gravity defying boob job, who can at least pose for action scenes (they have stunt doubles and CGI for the actual stunts), AND can act. No offense but Rinko Kikuchi doesn't fit the role, and going by her one well loved appearance in Pacific Rim I don't know if she'd be good at anything else. Most Japanese Actresses I've seen who might fit the role tend to be the products of the craptastic Japanese movie industry where most of them can't act at all. Indeed a lack of good Japanese actors at all is one of the big reasons we haven't exactly seen many coming into the US. China on the other hand (not all Asians go together) does have a decent film industry and a lot of talented people, many of whom have managed to land roles in Hollywood movies due to talent. I'm sure exceptions exist, but for the most part when you think of Japanese Cinema your probably thinking of various horror movies, or action-horror-comedy flicks that rely on "WTF did I just see" gags. I've seen a lot of Japanese movies over the years and while names don't stick in my mind well I can't even come up with a "the girl from this movie might have been able to pull it off" kind of reference when it comes to filling this role.

That doesn't excuse ethnicity swapping, it just means I think the movie shouldn't be made unless they are going to do it right, and doing it right means they probably don't want to pay an "A list" actress anyway because done correctly this is very much the definition of niche science fiction. It's appeal is both in transhumanist navel gazing, and utterly insane futurist Japanese power fantasy. You remove those things and you've just got some generic action movie with a girl with super abilities beating people up. What's more to be fair while she establishes her credentials Major Kusanagi doesn't actually win all that many fights, half the time when it comes down to a fight she's already so overgunned by people ready for her that she needs help or gets taken down. Indeed the entire point of the character is for her to navel gaze over the nature of humanity before getting killed and being "reborn" in some impossible seeming, profound fashion that involves revelations about the technologies being used and what people thought their limits were. On some levels I think ScarJo would be wasted on the role, she's good at the action stuff, but that's only part of this role, and the lesser part. I'm not sure how well she'd carry philosophical navel gazing, overtly her Black Widow Schtick can come close to how Matoko acts outwardly most of the time, but that isn't where the gist of the story or how the character is defined.

That said I suppose from a Hollywood perspective ScarJo is a bankable resource with good name recognition, she's the action "It Girl" of the moment. They probably just want the "Ghost In The Shell" name to slap onto the movie and don't care about the soul of the IP. From their perspective ethnic controversy is probably good and it let's Hollywood claim it isn't just white characters being changed, they do it in reverse as well.... in the end it will probably make some short term bank over her name, and be a forgettable action movie, the animes and manga will probably see a short term spike in sales, and a few new fans for people who appreciate what it really is, but overall most who check out these things will be upset to find out it's nothing like the movie. Life goes on with another IP exploited for all it's worth by the current Hollywood machine.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Pinkilicious said:
Popido said:
Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.

Maybe they just wanted a big name lead rather than act of racism.

Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?
She has the mass produced doll look and has hard time identifying herself.
That last line is somewhat amusing considering the type of criticisms typically leveraged at bad Hollywood actors...
also yes I believe she had one episode where she was in a different body as a sting, it was just that she is preferred to use the mass produced model with modifications inside. I think this was in the episode with the shota who she offered herself too but then he declined. That was an amusing tease to the audience like they were saying "Well maybe he would, but it is not that kind of show!"
It depends on what your talking about. There are different "versions" here. The Manga, OAV, and TV Series (SAC and SSS) all have some changes.

Strictly speaking Matoko does not use a mass produced body, she uses a combat modified sexbot (although that term is not explicitly stated) and indeed I believe it's mentioned that the unreal physical dimensions were part of her initial contract when she signed up for the military, but the same contract meant that her early memories are gone along with a lot of her initial personality. I believe at one point it's wondered if she was deeply insecure beforehand, because it's not the kind of request the major people know "now" seems like she would make. That said I believe it's also revealed that she really likes frilly, girly, things which surprises some of her colleagues when the find this out as well. That said in various stories her body is destroyed and she uses other ones, there are also several replacements for her default "shell" provided by the government in storage. It's been a while but I believe in the Manga they wind up seeing one of those taken over and wind up having to fight it with someone else driving it, making a point about how strong her shell happens to be even if those prepared for it can take it out with the right stuff.

Matoko is also likely a lesbian, or at least bi-sexual and strongly preferring women. None of the works I'm aware of or remember have gotten into her sex life heavily. That said the one time I remember her being given any kind of a non-work related social life or relationship, we saw her in the TV series wearing some skimpy costumes, drinking wine with another girl in her bedroom, this was shown a few times at various points, and while we never saw anything overtly sexual the implication was there. I believe this is why you see so much Rule 34 of her being involved in lesbian hijinks with her police comrades spying on her (I believe the Ironmouse Anime Shrines had some of this).

That said focusing on human relationships and trying to "ground" things wouldn't work these kinds of stories since the point is for them to not be grounded since it's getting into the very nature of life and humanity. It's perhaps most accurate to say that how she gets her sex kicks is irrelevant, at the end of the day she winds up feeling very disenfranchised with existence. It could be argued her look is the key to the whole thing because her personality is pretty cold and bland (and outright rude) but most people wind up loving her, both in the real world, and in cyberspace, which is why so many are willing to die for her, and you see cyberspace intelligences going out of their way to lead her along and ultimately rescue her.

Perhaps the best way to define he would be to say she's probably the closest someone can come to being a complete sociopath without stepping over the line. Given that she erased herself to become an ultimate warrior your dealing with someone who doesn't even think she's human.

One of the episodes of SAC (I think it was) dealt with this where her partner was tracking down another cybernetic soldier, one of his buddies who wasn't able to assimilate to peacetime and was "broken". He was running around as a seriel killer, torturing women to death with a cybernetic feedback loop through his brain so he could force them to both experience being tortured, and him torturing them simultaneously. I believe he also wanted to reveal the things these soldiers were doing during the war... and ultimately also wanted to be caught and put down by his buddy. Matoko wasn't a big part of that particular episode if I remember, but the point was to sort of spell out what these guys were and the kinds of things they did as "government terrorists" to demoralize their enemies. The implication being that it ruined some of them, but it's also why certain characters like Matoko who did assimilate are the way they are, they were adjusted to be outside of humanity specifically so they could do crap like that.... and that also says a bit about the intent behind their specific police mandate even if it doesn't come up (the protagonists are kept fairly heroic, but well... read between the lines).
 

Signa

Noisy Lurker
Legacy
Jul 16, 2008
4,749
6
43
Country
USA
Jeeze, one step at a time guys!

Let's get some actual female talent in the industry before we start bringing up their ethnicity. It's bad enough now that if you're not hot, you're not in Hollywood.
 

Coreless

New member
Aug 19, 2011
298
0
0
P-89 Scorpion said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)
I think everyone would love to see this happen but lets be real here... no one is going to see this movie if Rinko is in it. I could ask a hundred random people on the street if they know what Ghost in the Shell is or who Rinko is and I bet you would get barely a handful that know what or who we are talking about. This movie is a serious gamble as it is (being originally an anime) and requires someone with box office draw let alone the action chops to make this at least good enough for people to grab tickets. I would love to see Rinko take this role but lets be honest here, there is no studio out there that is going to drop millions for her to take a lead role.
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
1
0
Y'know what, I have just decided to be stupidly optimistic. Near as I can tell, the only announcement is that Johansson has signed on to star, not that she has signed on to play Major Kusanagi. My new (completely unsupported) theory is that she will be playing a modified Togusa, who will be a western law enforcement official recently added to Section 9; the minimal augmentation will be because western nations aren't quite up to date on cybernetics. As the audience surrogate, she'll get enough screentime to be technically considered one of the stars of the show. Major Kusanagi will be one of her co-stars; Dreamworks is trying to entice Kikuchi to the role.

I choose to believe this because I think it would be pretty cool. I intend to cling to this belief as long as I can. So if anybody has a primary source indicating that Johansson is Kusanagi, please don't tell me.
 

Trishbot

New member
May 10, 2011
1,318
0
0
Kameburger said:
Trishbot said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)
They wouldn't go for her because, one her English is not that great and 2 and because in Asia she is not considered as "beautiful" as probably would be expected of a leading lady.
Well, that's still a bad excuse, considering the Jackie Chan-led films like Rush Hour and Shanghai Noon made millions of dollars, and his English is pretty limited too, all things considering.

And she's drop-dead gorgeous. Even not to someone's tastes, well, that's what make-up is for. Women - using special effects to make ourselves look prettier for centuries.
 

UberGott

New member
Feb 20, 2014
69
0
0
Trishbot said:
Well, that's still a bad excuse, considering the Jackie Chan-led films like Rush Hour and Shanghai Noon made millions of dollars, and his English is pretty limited too, all things considering.
While true, it's also not quite the same thing. Nobody ever wanted Jackie Chan for his acting ability or his good looks - his fame can be placed squarely on his one-of-a-kind physicality.
 
Apr 24, 2008
3,912
0
0
UberGott said:
Trishbot said:
Well, that's still a bad excuse, considering the Jackie Chan-led films like Rush Hour and Shanghai Noon made millions of dollars, and his English is pretty limited too, all things considering.
While true, it's also not quite the same thing. Nobody ever wanted Jackie Chan for his acting ability or his good looks - his fame can be placed squarely on his one-of-a-kind physicality.
Shinjuku incident?

I think he's a good dramatic actor, and a very good comedic actor... As well as the remarkable physical talents he has.

Let's all give the man some credit. You'd have trouble naming someone who can put more skills on their resume.

I'm not actually bothered by Johansson's selection. Hollywood picked it up, they can do as they wish with it. I imagine they're not going to set it in Japan either. They're surely aiming to capitalize on the strong themes of the anime and whatever pull the name has... The details might not be of the utmost importance.

Besides, if I were going to push anyone into the spotlight as a potential casting, I'd push for Jeeja Yanin.


If you've seen Chocolate, you know this girl has the moves.
 

JarinArenos

New member
Jan 31, 2012
556
0
0
Popido said:
Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.
I have another article for you.
NPR - Why Doesn't America Read Anymore? [http://www.npr.org/2014/04/01/297690717/why-doesnt-america-read-anymore]
 

Batou667

New member
Oct 5, 2011
2,238
0
0
Nice race-bait article, Bob.

Except, I can one-up you. Johannsen is Jewish. Why are you trying to deny one of the handful of female Jewish actors screentime? Is this an act of erasure? What do you have against diversity and inclusiveness? I thought race was an unimportant social construct anyway, and what's more important is to let good actors get lead roles? This is very problematic.
 

UberGott

New member
Feb 20, 2014
69
0
0
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Shinjuku incident?

I think he's a good dramatic actor, and a very good comedic actor... As well as the remarkable physical talents he has.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to give Jackie Chan the business - he is a decent actor, and I'm excited to see him in Dragon Blade, which looks to be as much a drama as a spectacle.

That said, my point wasn't "Jackie Chan is a hack". My point was "Nobody in Hollywood cared about Jackie Chan's acting, just his stunt work". I stand by that.


Besides, if I were going to push anyone into the spotlight as a potential casting, I'd push for Jeeja Yanin.
You. I like you.
 

ngl42398

New member
May 19, 2011
50
0
0
Honestly, this may sound kinda selfish, but it doesn't really matter that much to me. Yeah, it sucks that Hollywood is whitewashing shit like always (when they don't occasionally decide to blackwash it for some arbitrary reason). But let's keep our fingers crossed that the movie doesn't happen. I've never seen Ghost in the Shell, and I don't know anime at all, but I know enough to be aware that this is a bad idea and will most likely be a bad movie if it comes out.
 

Username Redacted

New member
Dec 29, 2010
709
0
0
Pinky said:
What does this have to do with feminism at all?
I have no idea. Pretty sure this casting choice is about one thing and one thing only. Starts with the letter 'M' and rhymes with bunny.
 
Apr 24, 2008
3,912
0
0
ngl42398 said:
Honestly, this may sound kinda selfish, but it doesn't really matter that much to me. Yeah, it sucks that Hollywood is whitewashing shit like always (when they don't occasionally decide to blackwash it for some arbitrary reason). But let's keep our fingers crossed that the movie doesn't happen. I've never seen Ghost in the Shell, and I don't know anime at all, but I know enough to be aware that this is a bad idea and will most likely be a bad movie if it comes out.
"White-washing" eh? Where are the lines drawn? Magnificent 7 is more or less a western version of Seven Samurai, I believe A Fistful of Dollars is basically a western retelling of Yojimbo... Does it matter?

As far as I can tell, the only real difference between the adaptations that I mentioned, and what's happening here... Is that they're using the name.
 
Apr 24, 2008
3,912
0
0
UberGott said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Shinjuku incident?

I think he's a good dramatic actor, and a very good comedic actor... As well as the remarkable physical talents he has.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to give Jackie Chan the business - he is a decent actor, and I'm excited to see him in Dragon Blade, which looks to be as much a drama as a spectacle.

That said, my point wasn't "Jackie Chan is a hack". My point was "Nobody in Hollywood cared about Jackie Chan's acting, just his stunt work". I stand by that.


Besides, if I were going to push anyone into the spotlight as a potential casting, I'd push for Jeeja Yanin.
You. I like you.
Thanks.

Honestly, you could dismiss a lot of working actors and actresses on one ground or another. I believe the most common would be "noone would care about X if he/she weren't unusually attractive". It is what it is, and I don't see a problem with it. Brad Pitt probably got a massive heap of help from his looks, and I say that's good for him. I've still enjoyed his work. First impressions are never going to be terribly informed.

Jeeja needs more work. I loved Chocolate, everything else has been bad. Wtf was Raging Phoenix? She'd be great in a Gareth Evans production.