Ghost in the Shell is "international" story

[Chaos Isaac]

Well, first I would advise learning about what white washing entails and why it's wrong before you go around tossing out false equivalences.

Wait, so, white washing isn't washing over a characters ethnicity? Because that's exactly how we're using it here. Or, should we talk about the actual white washing of covering up shit?

Please, elucidate.

I find my example perfectly comparable in this case. A character is this race. (Supposedly in this case, don't know what the hell Kusanagi is besides a female cyborg.) And when being portrayed, they're now another race. This is our point of whitewashing, yes? Does this only apply to non-white character to white actor?

 

[Redryhno]

Not that I'd respect them any more for dropping the facade and just saying "We made this casting choice because money", but no one is really fooled by this.

And yes, whitewashing MajorKusanagi (who I hear they aren't even referring to her last name in the movie. yea, whitewashed) is racist. Saying 'an asian actress can't carry a box office hit' is in fact rooted in racism.

The character goes by "The Major" in the film's PR and unfortunately the asian actress people most tout for the role, her only blockbuster appearance was a bit of a dud. The GITS brand has little to no pull with mainstream audiences so you need to use a big name like ScarJo to put butts in seats.

'Need to' is a matter of perception. Matt Damon was a relatively small time actor when he did Good Will Hunting, Hugh Jackman was best known for freaking theatre work when he played Wolverine in X-Men. What about Matthew McConaughey in A Time to Kill?

You don't need a big name actor to make a commercially successful film. And GITS original manga run started in 1989. The target audience they're trying to reach already knows who The freaking Major is, this isn't an unknown IP.

Damon and Affleck worked their asses off to get that movie off the ground, much like Stallone did with Rocky, they're the INCREDIBLY rare exceptions to the rule. Jackman was doing TV work for years before Logan landed in his lap effectively, and had been trying to break into movies for a LONG time. McConaughey had quite a neat little movie sheet before Time to Kill with a somewhat wide range(not to mention was in Larger than Life the same year and I have no fucking clue how he kept getting work after that character, not his fault, just the character itself).

But I'm sorry to tell you this, but it IS an unknown IP. Much like Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, and BASTARD!!!(don't look at me, that's the title), it's well known in the anime community for various reasons(some more solid than others), but outside, nobody really knows about the damn thing. For everyone not involved or interested in anime, there's Berserk, DBZ, Sailor Moon, Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece(and even the last three vary on people knowing about, with Berserk only starting to break into the mainstream the last four or so years despite it being around longer than most of the others).

Hell, Gatchaman largely set the standard for tone and setup for half the team-based shows and series in the world, but barely anyone knows about the damn thing. Which is partly why I love it so much(Particularly the OVAs, seriously, go check them out). Rumiko Takahashi innovated and popularized a genre of manga that has largely persisted to this day, but nobody knows who she is despite being the most successful mangaka in the industry.

The whole point of an adaptation is to bring in people who don't know about it already, and the simplest way to bring people in with movies is to slap a big-name on it. At the moment it's fucking Johanssen(personally don't like her), and you can't fault a company for going for her. We don't really have another big-name action actress at the moment. Pretty much all of them have gotten older or have been out of the light for long enough nobody knows who the fuck they are anymore. The target audience is much more than the anime community, it's fucking Hollywood behind this, so quit kidding yourself and others.(who I swear judging by this thread have only ever heard of it and never actually watched the damn thing.)

Hell, the Japanese largely don't give a hoot and the ones into GiTS are looking forward to how Hollywood does it if for not any other reason than curiosity. So can we really jsut stop with this "racist" crap? We don't have an asian action actress that can put people in the seats at the moment. Can you chalk it up to racism that they aren't getting parts to do it? Sure, but here's the thing, the majority of Hollywood Asians are Chinese, Vietnamese, and Korean descent, do you see the problems that would cause with a character being touted as being inherently Japanese yet?

This is all ignoring that Kusanagi largely can't FUCKING REMEMBER MUCH OF SHIT. Her name and appearance have barely any relevance since she doesn't know what she actually looks like(she's got pieces here and there, but that's about it) Her mind's about the only thing that's actually human about her anymore. The whole series is about the questioning of the existence of the soul and what does and doesn't matter when you've got people who are 98% machine running around. Who gives a goddamn about some white girl body?

 

[Zontar]

Well that's categorically untrue.

You can say that, but it won't change the fact that it is.

Nice dodge, but I'm talking specifically about whitewashing here. There isn't a shortage of actors that could play those roles, and playing the 'but america is mostly white' card is a sad excuse, and nakedly transparent.

So you're in favour of a quota system then?

Transformers begs to differ.

http://www.vulture.com/2012/07/why-stars-dont-matter-gavin-polone.html

That article was one of the single biggest loads I've ever seen. Just look at these examples of 'starless' movies:

The list includes Thor, Planet of the Apes, Captain America, The Help, Bridesmaids, Super 8, Immortals, War Horse, and Dolphin Tale.

Of the 9 movies mentioned of its 21 supposedly starless films, only 1 can legitimately be argued to have that be the case. Given how that same article claims that 79 out of the top 100 movies did have star power behind it, and that we can assume around 2-3 of the 21 movies claimed to be starless has that actually be the case given how of the 9 examples only 1 has that be true, that only goes to reinforce the notion star power is important.

It's an article that is as best terribly researched and downright wrong in its conclusion, and that's if we assume it wasn't made as propaganda.

Are we really pulling the 'you're the real racist for calling our racism' card? we're only on the first page, seems a bit early for that. And no, not whitewashing films doesn't imply that 'certain races' are inherently better actors.

No, the implication of racism comes from thinking that in a country where three quarters of the people are from one ethnic group has a problem when said ethnic group has a proportional level of representation within the medium when an over-representation of other groups is what you want. Unless you want a quota system in place your argument is dependent on the assumption that Asians are inherently better actors then white people. Or at least that's one rational conclusion one can come to when reading your comments.

My source above seems to disagree.

And as I pointed out above, your source is either simply wrong or intentionally misinforming people.

Go ahead, pull the other one.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2016/01/film-and-race

And myth, busted.

And if you're really going to play the 'proportional representation' game, whats with the lack of female led movies? Pretty sure about half the country is women.

Because feminists have gone so far out of their way to make that impossible that unless you make boring characters that are so flat that everyone assumes a different one is the lead (a perfect example is Force Awakens, where most people are under the impression Finn is the lead due to how boring Rey is). I can't really sum it up better then this classic YouTube comment:

 

[McElroy]

At the very least it's founded in an obsolete way of thinking. The fact of the matter is that the guys making excuses for this kind of crap still believe that the only demographic they need to pander to is the 18-30 white male. Except reality has been rearing its ugly head in recent years what with America becoming more ethnically diverse and the overseas market expanding.

And that's exactly why "We're utilizing people from all over the world. ... There's Japanese in it. There's Chinese in it. There's English in it. There's Americans in it." The (untested as far as I know) question is whether the general public will watch basically anything if it's shoved in front of them at the right time. Maybe they would. But then creators start to compete and that's where they put ScarJo for the masses and the expectations decrease for the rest. Why have a lot of money when you can have all of it? Too many things would have to click into place for the "times to change" in a way that everyone notices NOW instead of five to ten years to the future. Besides, Hollywood will never stop favouring Caucasian actors, but maybe there will be even more diverse ensembles and so on. Like they're doing here.

Personally I can't fault DreamWorks for doing things as expected and not breaking ground. They did put Kid Rihanna into Home though.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

And that's exactly why "We're utilizing people from all over the world. ... There's Japanese in it. There's Chinese in it. There's English in it. There's Americans in it." The (untested as far as I know) question is whether the general public will watch basically anything if it's shoved in front of them at the right time. Maybe they would. But then creators start to compete and that's where they put ScarJo for the masses and the expectations decrease for the rest. Why have a lot of money when you can have all of it? Too many things would have to click into place for the "times to change" in a way that everyone notices NOW instead of five to ten years to the future. Besides, Hollywood will never stop favouring Caucasian actors, but maybe there will be even more diverse ensembles and so on. Like they're doing here.

Personally I can't fault DreamWorks for doing things as expected and not breaking ground. They did put Kid Rihanna into Home though.

Except the context of that is they used it to deflect away from the whitewashing when in fact they're still turning Asian characters into white people, particularly Kusanagi. The logic is they can't possibly be racist if the tame is ethnically diverse and not solely based in America. It's patronizing and misses the point of cinema becoming more international. And again, SCARJO IS NOT A BOX OFFICE DRAW. Star Power is a concept on its last legs and propagated by people who can't accept that the world is leaving them behind. Look at her films and none are big money makers except for the MCU films and those are sold on branding instead of their actors. It's done in the same, backward concept that the biggest moviegoers are white men and they can't "relate" to anyone but white people. Which again ignores demographics, ignores facts, and shows why Hollywood has serious issues.

 

[Yopaz]

No, I don't put race over quality.

Oh, so we agree. Quality is more important than race.

The role is in its essence a Japanese one. A Caucasian actress cannot deliver a quality performance when her role entails being a Japanese person of far-east Asian descent.[/quote]

Wait, so race is a requirement for quality now? I thought quality was more important than race?

Also, are you claiming there are no Japanese actresses as good as Scarjo?
I honestly don't know, I don't really pay attention to ethnicity. Could you without using Google give me the name of an equally talented and equally famous Japanese actor who could be suited for this kind of character?

I think film companies have a responsibility to use the fact that their industry is the second most far reaching and arguably the most influential in the entertainment business for social good. If they don't, citing economic concerns, then they are absolutely complicit in a racist status quo, which is from my perspective no different from racism itself.

So idealism is going to pay for the movies now? I asked you about this in my last post, but you chose one of the other questions over this one. I don't think race ever should ever be a concern over anything else. I know that's na?ve in our current state, but I really wish that one day we would criticize a casting choice such as this based on the fact that the one they hired is bad at acting out those kind of roles.

I think you're not going to get Scarjo-scale minority crowd-pullers until you give minority actors and actresses a shot at breakout roles. To refuse a minority actress a shot at Motoko Kusanagi(!!!) is, as I state above, either racist because they prefer a white actress or complicit in racism because $$$.[/quote]

If you had taken a poll before there was any news about casting for Ghost in the Shell and you had asked people if they knew about Ghost in the Shell and if they knew about Scarlet Johansson you would see that she is a much bigger name than the movie she's playing in. She might not appeal to all the fans of the source material, but she appeals to those who has never heard about it. Hire a Japanese actor who fewer people have heard about and this movie would appeal to a much smaller crowd. Now this is a repeated point I made in my last post. This is business, you can scream racism all you want and brush over this glaring hole. Idealism doesn't pay for big budget movies. It is possible that a Japanese actor with less renown would do at least as good a job or better, it would feel right for those of us familiar with the material and it could have made as much or more money. However Scarlet Johansson is a safe bet. The sad truth is that a movie doesn't have to be good to be a success. It has to make money. Would you feel safe gambling with such large sums knowing it could hurt your future if you failed?

 

[Zontar]

Except the context of that is they used it to deflect away from the whitewashing when in fact they're still turning Asian characters into white people, particularly Kusanagi.

Given how the only things anyone knows about the Major is that 1) she's a woman, 2) she got her body replaced when she was 6, 3) that her nationality is either Japanese or one of the American successor states, and 4) Kusanagi is not her real name.

tar Power is a concept on its last legs and propagated by people who can't accept that the world is leaving them behind. Look at her films and none are big money makers except for the MCU films and those are sold on branding instead of their actors.

If that's the case, why did Marvel spend $50 million to get Robert Downy Jr. to add Civil War to his movie contract with them? Are we really supposed to believe that Civil War would have made 1.2 billion without Iron Man?

It's done in the same, backward concept that the biggest moviegoers are white men and they can't "relate" to anyone but white people. Which again ignores demographics, ignores facts, and shows why Hollywood has serious issues.

Aren't those demanding quotas the ones who seem incapable of thinking that people can't relate to those outside their demographic? In any event the idea that star power isn't important is downright ludicrous, especially given how the only source posted in this thread seems to indicate that of the 100 top movies it looked at which where not sequels or animated, 97-98 of them had strong star power behind them.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

You know I hate to say it, but with the Black/Dark Blue hair Scarlett Johansson does actually look the part. And considering she did an excellent job playing the Black Widow in the Avengers I'm pretty sure she'll do a great job as the Major.

 

[springheeljack]

Honestly I can't really think of any recent Asian actresses with a lot of Hollywood star power and clout. I think Lucy Liu might have been the last one. I don't understand why people are so upset about a movie that hasn't even been made yet.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The role is in its essence a Japanese one.

snip

This is about as far removed from that as one can possible get. If you removed all references to Japan by name one wouldn't be able to tell the setting was in it, and using references to Hong Kong, Singapore or L.A. would make one not for a moment believe it wasn't set in those locations.

I'm sorry, but it taking place in Japan frequently does come up as an important plot point. Whether it's Russo-Japanese relations, the various Amero-Japanese relations, Japanese rearmament, and so on.

 

[Zontar]

The role is in its essence a Japanese one.

snip

This is about as far removed from that as one can possible get. If you removed all references to Japan by name one wouldn't be able to tell the setting was in it, and using references to Hong Kong, Singapore or L.A. would make one not for a moment believe it wasn't set in those locations.

I'm sorry, but it taking place in Japan frequently does come up as an important plot point. Whether it's Russo-Japanese relations, the various Amero-Japanese relations, Japanese rearmament, and so on.

So it's important for the secondary elements of the story that the movie adaptations completely dropped to focus on the main elements, and the television series basically ignored.

If we're being honest even the most faithful movie adaptation that was a perfect 1:1 adaptation of the source material likely wouldn't give more then a passing mention of those elements. 2 hours is barely enough to explore the core of the series.

 

[Zontar]

okay...what?

Show me all these female led movies that feminists have hated that have made it impossible to make female led movies. I'll wait. Or else is this just another one of those "we're not doing it ON THE CHANCE someone might hate it"?

Look at the feminist response to female leads in video games, even ones which they should in theory love.

When one looks at that, why would there be an assumption that the response to them in movies would somehow be different?

and also, really? Thats what you took from all the discussion around Force Awakens? I don't recall ANYONE claiming Rey was so boring that Finn was the lead

I didn't say anyone claiming Rey was so boring that Finn was the lead, I stated that many thought Finn was the lead because his character was much more interesting. I know I took until a few weeks after watching it and seeing Abrams state it explicitly to realise Finn wasn't the lead.

what I DO recall is a whole load of people (mostly male) claiming Rey is a Mary Sue because she does TOO much

Being boring and not doing anything are not synonymous.

so how can Rey be an overburdening presence in a movie AND be so boring that her duotagonist partner seems to be the lead star?

Because being a boring character is not synonymous with not doing anything.

 

[McElroy]

Except the context of that is they used it to deflect away from the whitewashing when in fact they're still turning Asian characters into white people, particularly Kusanagi. The logic is they can't possibly be racist if the tame is ethnically diverse and not solely based in America. It's patronizing and misses the point of cinema becoming more international. And again, SCARJO IS NOT A BOX OFFICE DRAW. Star Power is a concept on its last legs and propagated by people who can't accept that the world is leaving them behind. Look at her films and none are big money makers except for the MCU films and those are sold on branding instead of their actors. It's done in the same, backward concept that the biggest moviegoers are white men and they can't "relate" to anyone but white people. Which again ignores demographics, ignores facts, and shows why Hollywood has serious issues.

Dude, apart from one sentence you just repeated the post I replied to. Let's say DreamWorks did the bravest of things and faced the facts (whatever the heck those are). They could've mostly cast ethnically Asian(-American) actors yet they didn't. I bet they could've made it work even with the other obvious boundaries such as: they can't make a "Japanese" movie for a global audience; they can't just cast any Asian actor into any Asian role; they can't let competition slide since they're producing a blockbuster. In an ideal situation DreamWorks and more importantly Paramount would be up to the task and take the risk, but that's not at all how it goes in reality.

Scarlett Johansson was Lucy which made over 460 million with a budget of 40. And ScarJo was certainly a major draw (gender demographics play a big role) if not the draw of the movie along with people still somewhat remembering Luc Besson. That's dollar signs in the eyes of the shotcallers at DreamWorks and Paramount and they're taking the chance at bigger profits. One might say they should've realized how it all looks from a certain perspective and either not make the movie, make it a smaller movie, or aim for the ideal I described.

What I'm saying is we're getting a sci-fi action movie with an international cast and a female lead. The studios won't test out a sort of perfect storm of diverse casting based on open-mindedness. I dunno which of Hollywood's issues you're thinking about exactly, but the situation of medium budget films being unprofitable (can't compete well against other countries' domestic releases for example) certainly contributes on this GitS film coming to be the way it is.

 

[Zontar]

Look at the feminist response to female leads in video games, even ones which they should in theory love.

Like? 'female led videogames' can pretty much describe......Tomb Raider? Remember Me? Bayonetta?

thats all I got, and even then the amount of flak Bayonetta has gotten is minimal

but no please

list this expansive list of female led videogames that have gotten criticism specifically about their female character

Well the list of video games with female leads isn't particularly short [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_featuring_female_protagonists], but the flak they get from feminists is pretty bad. Hell of the three you mentioned only one didn't get flak due to sex-negative feminists taking issue with things like the fact that Tomb Raider the... Tomb Raider had Lara dealing with adversity, and Bayonetta having some sexuality (this one at least stopped when people called out the hypocrisy of being feminists while being against women making art they enjoy).

With how often a character going through real adversity gets claims of misogyny thrown the writer's way due to having the gal to have the person going through said adversity be a women, is it any wonder why writers and creators are shying away from it? Especially when the complains of the lack there of are nowhere near as vitriol filled as doing one which is perceived as 'done wrong'?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The role is in its essence a Japanese one.

snip

This is about as far removed from that as one can possible get. If you removed all references to Japan by name one wouldn't be able to tell the setting was in it, and using references to Hong Kong, Singapore or L.A. would make one not for a moment believe it wasn't set in those locations.

I'm sorry, but it taking place in Japan frequently does come up as an important plot point. Whether it's Russo-Japanese relations, the various Amero-Japanese relations, Japanese rearmament, and so on.

So it's important for the secondary elements of the story that the movie adaptations completely dropped to focus on the main elements, and the television series basically ignored.

If we're being honest even the most faithful movie adaptation that was a perfect 1:1 adaptation of the source material likely wouldn't give more then a passing mention of those elements. 2 hours is barely enough to explore the core of the series.

Uh, the first episode of SAC involved a conspiracy at a geisha pleasure house to get a brain out of Japan to the American Empire iirc. A major point of second gig was the AE using Kuze to expand their flagging power. Arise has Aramaki working to get funding for their paramilitary operation which sits in a grey zone of Japanese law. The characters in every incarnation are shaped by their experience of fighting in the war(s). Several of the stories are very Japanese specific. even why they're there with such a small unit is because it takes place in Japan. If it were an American story, they'd basically be an army division.

 

[kaizen2468]

Waaaah white people paying Japanese companies for the rights to make movies with white people in them. If we're all the same as these leftist people think why does it matter?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I don't get what the big deal is. The Major didn't look all that Japanese in the Anime anyway. Yes it kinda sucks that the don't have a Japanese actress in the lead role, but I'm not going to write off the movie because of it.

It might be worth pointing out that the Major in the animes is more or less just a human brain in a fully cybernetic body. Whatever she looks like it can easily be hand-waved with "it is just how the cybernetic body looks, it doesn't reflect on how her human body looked".

I don't have a strong opinion on this topic, as far as I care all is well if ScarJo can carry the role. However, I find it a bit amusing that people are obsessing over the ethnicity of the actor portraying Kusanangi, when one of the topics touched on by the anime was that cybernetics had the potential to let people transcend limitations like sex, ethnicity and physical handicaps to truly realize themselves as the person they wanted to be.

 

[Jux]

You can say that, but it won't change the fact that it is.

And repeating yourself doesn't make it any more true, as I'd taken quite a few economics courses in both HS and college.

So you're in favour of a quota system then?

I have no idea how you made that logical leap.

It's an article that is as best terribly researched and downright wrong in its conclusion, and that's if we assume it wasn't made as propaganda.

'It disagrees with me, so it must be wrong!' says the dude on the internet against the word of a Hollywood producer that's been producing tv and films for almost 20 years. Ok. edit: and might I add with no real rebuttal to that article aside from 'nuh uh!'

No, the implication of racism comes from thinking that in a country where three quarters of the people are from one ethnic group has a problem when said ethnic group has a proportional level of representation within the medium when an over-representation of other groups is what you want. Unless you want a quota system in place your argument is dependent on the assumption that Asians are inherently better actors then white people. Or at least that's one rational conclusion one can come to when reading your comments.

What I'm implying is that the racism comes from the idea that a major film headed by a minority won't do well because the majority doesn't want to see minorities in lead roles. And what I'm outright stating is that this excuse that the 'story is an international one' is bullshit and a flimsy dodge to avoid having to deal with the elephant in the room.

And myth, busted.

LOL, check your own sources dude.

White people make up roughly 65% of the population according to that graph, and are over represented in every other category on that graph, especially in top roles, oscar nominations and oscar wins.

edit: Reading the entire thing, I have no idea why you'd use that as a source, since it blows your argument out the water. There are so many quoatable bits, but I really liked this one:

The numbers indicate that, whereas the film industry most certainly fails to represent America?s diversity, the whitewashing occurs not behind the closed doors of the Academy, but in drama schools (shown in the SAG membership) and casting offices.

Oh man, so a complaint about a non asian actress being cast in an asian role couldn't possibly be whitewashing because... oh wait, the white washing does occur in the casting offices. Funny that.

Because feminists have gone so far out of their way to make that impossible that unless you make boring characters that are so flat that everyone assumes a different one is the lead (a perfect example is Force Awakens, where most people are under the impression Finn is the lead due to how boring Rey is).

So the people that are trying to get more representation for women are the ones making it impossible for women to get representation. Ok.