Ghost in the Shell is "international" story

[Jux]

Alright, here's the reason why his list is wrong: of Thor, Planet of the Apes, Captain America, The Help, Bridesmaids, Super 8, Immortals, War Horse, and Dolphin Tale, only Super 8 is one that doesn't have star power behind it in the form of actors (though if we're including directors, which for the sake of argument I'm not, then the number goes does to 0).

And who were the stars driving those movies? Chris Hemsworth's breakout role was Thor. Unless you're trying to tell me people went to see Natalie Portman be arm candy and Anthony Hopkins? James Franco isn't driving any movies, so no go there for Rise of the Planet of the Apes, Chris Evans breakout role was Captain America, who was Emma Stone again before The Help? Henry Cavill, again, no one of note at that time, since he wasn't superman till 2013, a full 2 years later, Jeremy Irvines first movie role was in War Horse, so again, nothing there, and Harry Connick Jr could hardly be called 'star power' at this point.

Do I really need to go through the rest of your post? It doesn't even look like you responded to any of my other sources.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Stuff

White-washing isn't inherently racist, you know. And I hope you know, if you do persist the claim that white-washing is inherently racist, you must also acknowledge every case of black-washing or yellow-washing or whatever-color-washing is also racist. To be honest, this is no more racist then casting a black dude for The Human Torch.

That's not to say there hasn't been racism involved in white-washing, most likely there have but I know no direct reference for this.

 

[Zontar]

And who were the stars driving those movies?

Thor: Natalie Portman, Stellan Skarsgard, Colm Feore (he was a name once), Ray Stevenson, Idris Elba and Anthony Hopkins.

Rise of the Planet of the Apes: James Franco (who was an established actor by that point no matter what you have to say on the matter), John Lithgow, Brian Cox, Tom Felton and Andy Serkis.

Captain America: Tommy Lee Jones, Hugo Weaving, Dominic Cooper, Neal McDonough, Derek Luke and Stanley Tucci (and even Chris Evans is debatable given he was already a blockbuster star by that point).

The Help: Bryce Dallas Howard, Viola Davis (it was a middle budget movie targeting the niche she was known in for her other smaller lead roles), Allison Janney and yes, Emma Stone (who's breakout role had been Zombieland).

I'm going to stop here because you get the point. That's the thing about Hollywood movies, they don't tend to have one single lead despite the title. It's the exception, not the rule, that has a single person who is the star of the show, with it almost always being 3-8 people who have that role (usually closer to 3), and unless the entire point of the movie in question is to be a union of a bunch of big name actors where the story is secondary to them all being in one film, that group always has a mix of star power and rising talent (half to get new talent, half because said new talent is cheap compared to name actors) as well as making it easier to get as many seats in the theatre as possible because, given how some actors will get people in seats by virtue of being in a movie (because star power is still a thing and if anything the change in how cinema works in the internet age has only made that more, not less, true) it it gets to the point where having only 2-3% of the largest movies not having star power behind them becomes pretty obvious as to why that is.

It doesn't even look like you responded to any of my other sources

You source Vox and The Guardian, why should I be expected to put the effort into responding to blogs that in my country couldn't legally call themselves news outlets?

 

[ErrrorWayz]

Seems a bit of a shame the movie's release has already descended into "you're all racist, no we're not" mud slinging, have been quite looking forward to it. I confess to finding arguments like these a little tiresome, if only because they are insoluble, it's 2 entrenched opinions, of entirely equal merit, endlessly battering away at each other.

At the end of the day only one opinion actually counts (in terms of delivery of product), that of the person funding it and they've gone with Scarlett.

All in all, I just hope they don't totally screw it up artistically.

 

[Something Amyss]

If there's one thing I've learned from the internet it's that censorship is bad, and criticism leads to the most dangerous kind of censorship of all: self-censorship. Therefore, if we show any dislike towards the decisions of the filmmakers, we are harming free speech. And really, free speech is more valuable than our feelings, so we must protect it at all cost.

Unless there's some way to backdoor some sort of exception for things we don't like, that is....

 

[DefunctTheory]

If there's one thing I've learned from the internet it's that censorship is bad, and criticism leads to the most dangerous kind of censorship of all: self-censorship. Therefore, if we show any dislike towards the decisions of the filmmakers, we are harming free speech. And really, free speech is more valuable than our feelings, so we must protect it at all cost.

Unless there's some way to backdoor some sort of exception for things we don't like, that is....

Crap. I know you're being sarcastic, but laying out that 'logic,' without the usual trimmings that obscure it, gave me a brain tumor.

 

[Something Amyss]

Crap. I know you're being sarcastic, but laying out that 'logic,' without the usual trimmings that obscure it, gave me a brain tumor.

You know, they always warned me my sense of humour would get someone killed. I just always assumed it'd be me.

 

[Gorrath]

tl;dr: whitewashing has been going on for a long damn time, and people are tired of it

Very interesting video detailing accurately the plight of Asian actors in Hollywood, who, along with Hispanics, are pretty much invisible outside of stereotypically restricted roles.

My only nitpick would be its mention of Cloud Atlas as an example of yellowface, it completely misses the point of the movie. Race and gender are not barriers for the soul in this movie, which means that they keep the same actors for every segment of the story. Which means that you end up with actors like Doona Bae, Hale Berry, or Jim Sturgess playing both White, Hispanic, Black, and Asian roles.

What you're seeing there is the effect that codifying an act as taboo has. Instead of people looking at circumstances and evaluating a thing or act based on its moral or ethical merits, they instead call it out as violating taboo because they equate the violation of the taboo with a breach of morals or ethics. Using racial slurs is a taboo, even in situations and contexts where there is no moral or ethical problem; same with sexism, racism or any of the -ists. The problems with this stance, that the violation of the taboo must, certainly, be a violation of morals or ethics, become particularly bad when the labels are so broad and ill defined as they tend to be with -ists and -isms.

 

[Gorrath]

Crap. I know you're being sarcastic, but laying out that 'logic,' without the usual trimmings that obscure it, gave me a brain tumor.

You know, they always warned me my sense of humour would get someone killed. I just always assumed it'd be me.

This tends to be "the other side's" great golden cow. We will brook no violation of the taboo of censorship, context, moral and ethical implications be damned! Stopping people from shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater may be censorship but it's also ethical. Separating men and women into segregated sports leagues is sexist, and also ethical. If people spent more time coming to grips with morals and ethics instead of worrying over every violation of their golden cows, I think we'd have a much better society.

 

[Redryhno]

If there's one thing I've learned from the internet it's that censorship is bad, and criticism leads to the most dangerous kind of censorship of all: self-censorship. Therefore, if we show any dislike towards the decisions of the filmmakers, we are harming free speech. And really, free speech is more valuable than our feelings, so we must protect it at all cost.

Unless there's some way to backdoor some sort of exception for things we don't like, that is....

Crap. I know you're being sarcastic, but laying out that 'logic,' without the usual trimmings that obscure it, gave me a brain tumor.

Problem is there's one important point missing. There's nothing wrong with disliking it. Dislike it all you want, nobody gives a shit.

There is something wrong with going past disliking it and insisting one thing is one thing to everyone else and immediately assuming it's to keep the non-white folk in the holes they belong in(or some variation). I mean, there's a huge amount of assumptions that have been made since the casting choice was made, mostly in the form of ruining something about GitS because racism. Also people have been asking for productive criticism like who they'd replace Johannssen with and the only answer has been a woman that doesn't speak English all that well(as much as I like Rinko), and variations on "THAT'S NOT MY JOB".

And people ignore when the exact same thing happens in other countries with their movies and adaptations. Joe in Gatchaman is supposed to be Russian/Japanese, but every live-action adaptation they've done has been a guy without a hint of Russian in him. Attack on Titan is all about European people, to the point that anyone not of European descent is a rarity, yet the Japanese movie takes heavy liberties with the tech level as well as making every character Japanese. The Ranma live-action stuff doesn't have Chinese actors despite a decent amount of the cast actually being Chinese. People are throwing a shit fit about Tarzan always having been a "white savior" when the original book is about a white guy(an allegory for civilization) becoming one with what mankind is supposed to be with the missing link apes. Also while being called derogatory names by both ape family and the tribals on the island simply for being a white dude. And then his family comes and the other whites are so much a bag of dicks. Bollywood is famous for their adaptations of Yakuza-style movies that just make no sense in India because they don't have the same underworld traditions.

There's SO many examples of this happening around the world with adaptations and markets, but nobody gives a shit about the equivalent happening in other countries for whatever reason. Or seem to not have read the source material before complaining.

I mean, why does everything have to tie back to discrimination and maliciousness here? Why can't it just be like The Expendables? A series that is only a series because it just brought the biggest action names of the past into one movie and fully banking on the names? Why is it Asian erasure? Why is the "obvious" answer something shitty instead of something that can be explained with something much more "innocent" in the form of money and names?

 

[anthony87]

Why is the "obvious" answer something shitty instead of something that can be explained with something much more "innocent" in the form of money and names?

Because that way people get to decry something "wrong" and get that warm little fuzzy feeling deep down for thinking the right thing, being progressive, standing up for the little man, promoting "equality" etc.

However its also just as likely that I'm talking shite.

 

[shrekfan246]

"Ghost in the Shell would fail if they didn't cast a star in the role!!! There aren't any Asian star actresses to be cast!!!!!!!"

Gee, it's almost like people don't realize that the way stars are made is by being cast in roles like Major Kusanagi...

 

[MatParker116]

"Ghost in the Shell would fail if they didn't cast a star in the role!!! There aren't any Asian star actresses to be cast!!!!!!!"

Gee, it's almost like people don't realize that the way stars are made is by being cast in roles like Major Kusanagi...

Not with this kind of niche IP, studios just aren't prepared to risk what is likely north of $100 million when marketing is taken into account on the GITS brand alone, which has little to no pull with mainstream audiences. Pom Klementieff is in the Guardians sequel and I genuinely hope it's a breakout role for her. But Dreamworks and Paramount have to mitigate the financial risk involved and Scarlett is the tenth highest grossing performer in history. Given her box office pull and performances as both Lucy and The Black Widow when all factors are taken into account she's perfect for The Major.

 

[Zontar]

The rest of the country when you've sliced off the coasts? Chicago, and Texas would be the opinions and perspectives that matter from an economic perspective.

That's not even the coasts being sliced off, just those three cities. But I have a feeling that the people living in those three cities wouldn't be happy about Chicago or Texas becoming the new "only place who's opinions matter" part of the country given how the pendulum would swing to the opposite extreme.

You don't actually know much about the US, do you? I mean basic things, like population densities.

I know enough to know that if you remove New York, LA and San Francisco from the equation that Chicago would become the financial heart of the country and Texas the cultural one overnight.

 

[Redryhno]

"Ghost in the Shell would fail if they didn't cast a star in the role!!! There aren't any Asian star actresses to be cast!!!!!!!"

Gee, it's almost like people don't realize that the way stars are made is by being cast in roles like Major Kusanagi...

Maybe if GitS does well, then we will see it in the future with other franchises that deserve for more people to be exposed to them. I certainly hope so.

But I will continue to stand behind the fact that it's honestly an unknown franchise for the mainstream at this point in time, and this failing means more than a tiny bit of backlash from casting a well-known actress who doesn't have the perfect ancestry. We saw what happened with Batman and Robin, it was seven years before we got another superhero movie that didn't hide behind obscurity while still being ashamed of existing(even if I personally consider it an amazing Arnie flick).

And quit lumping all Asians into the same category if you're going to go with the "staying true to the source and ethnicity" argument. It's either Japanese actress or nothing with that mindset.

You got any suggestions for better casting options so we can maybe have a productive conversation?

 

[shrekfan246]

"Ghost in the Shell would fail if they didn't cast a star in the role!!! There aren't any Asian star actresses to be cast!!!!!!!"

Gee, it's almost like people don't realize that the way stars are made is by being cast in roles like Major Kusanagi...

Not with this kind of niche IP, studios just aren't prepared to risk what is likely north of $100 million when marketing is taken into account on the GITS brand alone, which has little to no pull with mainstream audiences. Pom Klementieff is in the Guardians sequel and I genuinely hope it's a breakout role for her. But Dreamworks and Paramount have to mitigate the financial risk involved and Scarlett is the tenth highest grossing performer in history. Given her box office pull and performances as both Lucy and The Black Widow when all factors are taken into account she's perfect for The Major.

Ghost in the Shell is niche? We are talking about the franchise that, since 1995, has had four full-length animated features, two different animated series, both of which were also adapted into three separate animated features themselves, and four video games? Fuck, if that's niche then Guardians of the Galaxy was downright unknown. And if anyone tries telling me that was sold on the star power of Chris Pratt, Zoe Saldana, Dave Bautista, Vin Diesel, and Bradley Cooper, then I'm going to seriously question what they consider to be "star power" and again point out that roles like this are exactly how people become stars in the first place.

 

[Sonmi]

"Ghost in the Shell would fail if they didn't cast a star in the role!!! There aren't any Asian star actresses to be cast!!!!!!!"

Gee, it's almost like people don't realize that the way stars are made is by being cast in roles like Major Kusanagi...

Not with this kind of niche IP, studios just aren't prepared to risk what is likely north of $100 million when marketing is taken into account on the GITS brand alone, which has little to no pull with mainstream audiences. Pom Klementieff is in the Guardians sequel and I genuinely hope it's a breakout role for her. But Dreamworks and Paramount have to mitigate the financial risk involved and Scarlett is the tenth highest grossing performer in history. Given her box office pull and performances as both Lucy and The Black Widow when all factors are taken into account she's perfect for The Major.

Ghost in the Shell is niche? We are talking about the franchise that, since 1995, has had four full-length animated features, two different animated series, both of which were also adapted into three separate animated features themselves, and four video games? Fuck, if that's niche then Guardians of the Galaxy was downright unknown. And if anyone tries telling me that was sold on the star power of Chris Pratt, Zoe Saldana, Dave Bautista, Vin Diesel, and Bradley Cooper, then I'm going to seriously question what they consider to be "star power" and again point out that roles like this are exactly how people become stars in the first place.

In all fairness, Guardians of the Galaxy was relatively unknown, which is why Gunn was given so much creative liberty instead of the movie following the traditional "Iron-Man tested" mold that all the other big Marvel movies fit in at the time.

 

[Zontar]

Ghost in the Shell is niche?

Yes, Ghost in the Shell is niche, it's not only not a household name, but the very medium isn't one that's common in households outside of children's multinational IPs. Hell the movie didn't even make 3 million dollars at the box office. That's pretty niche.

Anime is niche, anime that isn't for children much more so. Monogatari has 4 series, 3 mini-series, 2 movies and an internet original series in only 7 years. It's also something that outside of our small anime community is literally unknown outside of Japan.

if that's niche then Guardians of the Galaxy was downright unknown.

Guardians of the Galaxy was downright unknown, even unfamiliar to many comic book readers. But because of the success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, coupled with the potential for merchandising, Marvel deemed it a worthy risk to slap their logo on to see if it worked (remember that its success was deemed the point where Marvel's name is enough to sell anything)

 

[shrekfan246]

You got any suggestions for better casting options so we can maybe have a productive conversation?

Considering that you're assuming quite a lot about what I'm saying based on an exaggeration of the arguments I've seen thrown out about this topic rather than my actual opinion (please do note the quotation marks), I doubt we're going to have a productive conversation no matter what I do.

Though I will point out something:

Maybe if GitS does well, then we will see it in the future with other franchises that deserve for more people to be exposed to them. I certainly hope so.

Ghost in the Shell stood as yet another in a long line of fantastic opportunities to actually highlight talented actresses who aren't white. Given the fact that there are so many people who are totally okay with it not, and given the history of precedent present in Hollywood, this mostly just seems to confirm that it's sadly going to continue with taking stories from other cultures and "Americanizing" them because everybody knows that Americans just can't handle anything that isn't 95% white. (That's also an exaggeration, before anyone gets on me for that.)

Have we all already forgotten Edge of Tomorrow?

And I'm not sure what Batman & Robin has to do with this discussion at all. Even beyond the fact that it didn't change the ethnicity of Batman, George Clooney was hardly the reason it was a bad film (nor do I believe he was ever accused of such to any degree that was significantly detrimental) and his career only got more successful in its wake.

"Ghost in the Shell would fail if they didn't cast a star in the role!!! There aren't any Asian star actresses to be cast!!!!!!!"

Gee, it's almost like people don't realize that the way stars are made is by being cast in roles like Major Kusanagi...

Not with this kind of niche IP, studios just aren't prepared to risk what is likely north of $100 million when marketing is taken into account on the GITS brand alone, which has little to no pull with mainstream audiences. Pom Klementieff is in the Guardians sequel and I genuinely hope it's a breakout role for her. But Dreamworks and Paramount have to mitigate the financial risk involved and Scarlett is the tenth highest grossing performer in history. Given her box office pull and performances as both Lucy and The Black Widow when all factors are taken into account she's perfect for The Major.

Ghost in the Shell is niche? We are talking about the franchise that, since 1995, has had four full-length animated features, two different animated series, both of which were also adapted into three separate animated features themselves, and four video games? Fuck, if that's niche then Guardians of the Galaxy was downright unknown. And if anyone tries telling me that was sold on the star power of Chris Pratt, Zoe Saldana, Dave Bautista, Vin Diesel, and Bradley Cooper, then I'm going to seriously question what they consider to be "star power" and again point out that roles like this are exactly how people become stars in the first place.

In all fairness, Guardians of the Galaxy was relatively unknown, which is why Gunn was given so much creative liberty instead of the movie following the traditional "Iron-Man tested" mold that all the other big Marvel movies fit in at the time.

And, much like many other examples that have been used in this thread, it turned out to be quite the hit even despite lacking an actual all-star cast at the time in the most prominent roles.

People who say that Ghost in the Shell needs star power to sell are basically admitting that they don't think the property is good enough to sell on its own. Frankly, history should be enough to prove them wrong on that by now, because the thing wouldn't still be as relatively popular as it is (popular enough to get a Hollywood film, no less) if it wasn't good enough to be sold to a big enough audience.