Ghost in the Shell is "international" story

[MatParker116]

No, it's a business one. There is no Asian actress with a proven box office track record

In large part because people don't cast them in movies, though.

Unfortunately, that is the reality it's completely unfair but in no way motivated by race, just money.

The two are not mutually exclusive, though.

They aren't I agree hopefully Pom breaks out in Guardians 2.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

http://screenrant.com/ghost-shell-movie-casting-controversy-international/

?There [are] all sorts of people and nationalities in the world in Ghost in the Shell. We?re utilizing people from all over the world. ? There?s Japanese in it. There?s Chinese in it. There?s English in it. There?s Americans in it.?[\quote]

My guess is while the film is set in unidentified asian metropolis Section 9 itself is an international taskforce under Interpol, UN or other umbrella organisation.

Look doing the melting pot thing in Asia so they can cast Scar-Jo, fine, whatever I've stopped caring since Stand Alone Complex still exists, but why bother changing Section 9 into some kind of nebulous international body instead of them being an agency of the Japanese Government? That I don't get.

Because governments rarely if at all employ foreign nationals in law enforcement posts.

Well as some have pointed out, they do in Ghost in the Shell. The wiki for the series only pins down The Major (a count on which we're already fucked), Aramaki and Saito are listed as having Japan as their home nation, though I assume Togusa (who was a beat cop) is also a Japanese native. The others, despite their names, aren't so readily identified as Japanese.

 

[MatParker116]

http://screenrant.com/ghost-shell-movie-casting-controversy-international/

?There [are] all sorts of people and nationalities in the world in Ghost in the Shell. We?re utilizing people from all over the world. ? There?s Japanese in it. There?s Chinese in it. There?s English in it. There?s Americans in it.?[\quote]

My guess is while the film is set in unidentified asian metropolis Section 9 itself is an international taskforce under Interpol, UN or other umbrella organisation.

Look doing the melting pot thing in Asia so they can cast Scar-Jo, fine, whatever I've stopped caring since Stand Alone Complex still exists, but why bother changing Section 9 into some kind of nebulous international body instead of them being an agency of the Japanese Government? That I don't get.

Because governments rarely if at all employ foreign nationals in law enforcement posts.

Well as some have pointed out, they do in Ghost in the Shell. The wiki for the series only pins down The Major (a count on which we're already fucked), Aramaki and Saito are listed as having Japan as their home nation, though I assume Togusa (who was a beat cop) is also a Japanese native. The others, despite their names, aren't so readily identified as Japanese.

Think it might be due to the casting. Section 9 in the film contains european, arab, asian & australian actors it's also a big no no to lump all asian nationals as one country particularly in Japan.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

http://screenrant.com/ghost-shell-movie-casting-controversy-international/

?There [are] all sorts of people and nationalities in the world in Ghost in the Shell. We?re utilizing people from all over the world. ? There?s Japanese in it. There?s Chinese in it. There?s English in it. There?s Americans in it.?[\quote]

My guess is while the film is set in unidentified asian metropolis Section 9 itself is an international taskforce under Interpol, UN or other umbrella organisation.

Look doing the melting pot thing in Asia so they can cast Scar-Jo, fine, whatever I've stopped caring since Stand Alone Complex still exists, but why bother changing Section 9 into some kind of nebulous international body instead of them being an agency of the Japanese Government? That I don't get.

Because governments rarely if at all employ foreign nationals in law enforcement posts.

Well as some have pointed out, they do in Ghost in the Shell. The wiki for the series only pins down The Major (a count on which we're already fucked), Aramaki and Saito are listed as having Japan as their home nation, though I assume Togusa (who was a beat cop) is also a Japanese native. The others, despite their names, aren't so readily identified as Japanese.

Think it might be due to the casting. Section 9 in the film contains european, arab, asian & australian actors it's also a big no no to lump all asian nationals as one country particularly in Japan.

I think you and I are talking past one another: I'm not referring to the Wiki for the movie, but for the series in general. I made the assumption, using similar logic to your own, that they wouldn't hire anyone other than native born and raised since top security positions in an intelligence and law enforcement agency (outside of special contractors) is very much an exclusive club, even for born and bred locals.

 

[Jux]

Not that I'd respect them any more for dropping the facade and just saying "We made this casting choice because money", but no one is really fooled by this.

And yes, whitewashing MajorKusanagi (who I hear they aren't even referring to her last name in the movie. yea, whitewashed) is racist. Saying 'an asian actress can't carry a box office hit' is in fact rooted in racism.

 

[MatParker116]

Not that I'd respect them any more for dropping the facade and just saying "We made this casting choice because money", but no one is really fooled by this.

And yes, whitewashing MajorKusanagi (who I hear they aren't even referring to her last name in the movie. yea, whitewashed) is racist. Saying 'an asian actress can't carry a box office hit' is in fact rooted in racism.

The character goes by "The Major" in the film's PR and unfortunately the asian actress people most tout for the role, her only blockbuster appearance was a bit of a dud. The GITS brand has little to no pull with mainstream audiences so you need to use a big name like ScarJo to put butts in seats.

 

[Jux]

Not that I'd respect them any more for dropping the facade and just saying "We made this casting choice because money", but no one is really fooled by this.

And yes, whitewashing MajorKusanagi (who I hear they aren't even referring to her last name in the movie. yea, whitewashed) is racist. Saying 'an asian actress can't carry a box office hit' is in fact rooted in racism.

The character goes by "The Major" in the film's PR and unfortunately the asian actress people most tout for the role, her only blockbuster appearance was a bit of a dud. The GITS brand has little to no pull with mainstream audiences so you need to use a big name like ScarJo to put butts in seats.

'Need to' is a matter of perception. Matt Damon was a relatively small time actor when he did Good Will Hunting, Hugh Jackman was best known for freaking theatre work when he played Wolverine in X-Men. What about Matthew McConaughey in A Time to Kill?

You don't need a big name actor to make a commercially successful film. And GITS original manga run started in 1989. The target audience they're trying to reach already knows who The freaking Major is, this isn't an unknown IP.

 

[Candidus]

Another point is that when you plan a big budget movie you want names you know attract the audience. Sadly that creates situations where minorities are underrepresented even in roles they would be perfect for. Call it racism all you want, but this is business.

I genuinely care about quality. It probably wasn't the best idea to use her considering fans of the source material and the fact that whitewashing is a hot topic right now.

Do you put race over quality?
Do you think companies should be more concerned over race than profits?
Do you think idealism will keep them earning money?

No, I don't put race over quality. The role is in its essence a Japanese one. A Caucasian actress cannot deliver a quality performance when her role entails being a Japanese person of far-east Asian descent. Also, are you claiming there are no Japanese actresses as good as Scarjo?

I think film companies have a responsibility to use the fact that their industry is the second most far reaching and arguably the most influential in the entertainment business for social good. If they don't, citing economic concerns, then they are absolutely complicit in a racist status quo, which is from my perspective no different from racism itself.

I think you're not going to get Scarjo-scale minority crowd-pullers until you give minority actors and actresses a shot at breakout roles. To refuse a minority actress a shot at Motoko Kusanagi(!!!) is, as I state above, either racist because they prefer a white actress or complicit in racism because $$$.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

Saying 'an asian actress can't carry a box office hit' is in fact rooted in racism.

Saying that no current asian actress in Hollywood has a name worth as much as Scar Jo's wouldn't be far from truth, though. Even if it fuels circular reasoning. At least there's a silver lining; Hollywood begins leering at chinese audiences and their wallets, so maybe in nearest future it'll start noticing asian actors more.

As for GITS movie - At least we'll get to see Takeshi Kitano as Aramaki.

 

[Zontar]

The role is in its essence a Japanese one.

How is the role of a person who's name, race and nationality are never stated (with only the implication she's Japanese or an American of Japanese decent, though even then with what we're shown of the setting that implication is much weaker then one would think) in a story about the line between what is and what is not human that is set in a fictional version of Japan incomparable to the real world one a role that is "in its essence" Japanese?

This is about as far removed from that as one can possible get. If you removed all references to Japan by name one wouldn't be able to tell the setting was in it, and using references to Hong Kong, Singapore or L.A. would make one not for a moment believe it wasn't set in those locations.

either racist because they prefer a white actress or complicit in racism because $$$.

Why is it only a problem when Hollywood casts people based on their ability to be a box office draw, but when the same is done for any other nation's equivalent that isn't a problem? And how is the fact that there is no Asian actress who is a big enough star to justify the making of such a movie racism? If I'm spending 100 million dollars on a movie, you'd god damn right I'm casting people who will make that money back. There's nothing racist about that mentality, and calling it such devalues the word racism in the eyes of society because it makes it impossible to take an accusation of someone being such seriously.

 

[Flathole]

"Which race is the actress omg??" is a meaningless argument.

This movie will fail because it's live-action, and will likely be nothing but "bang bang RACISM IS BAD pow pow explode." Themes will be dumbed down and simplified, filled with so much CGI that the only reason human actors are standing in for animations is so the popcorn-eating audiences can "relate" to the characters, leading to a bigger box office. see also: Transformers.

Kusanagi wasn't white OR asian. She was a cyborg. Every part of her body prosthetic, fake, except for her brain, which she can't view herself, and wouldn't be able to confirm if it was real because her eyes may be compromised.

I think of every scene from the movies and show and wonder- "would any of this be improved by replacing surreal animation with overpaid celebrities in front of a greenscreen?" And every time, the answer is NO, NO, NO, GOD NO, JUST NO.

Come on, when has anime ever gone WELL in a live-action adaptation? Avatar: The last Airbender? Dragonball Z? Just wondering how they'd handle the Tachikoma's alone makes me worry. Then there's the stylized displays of data and internet access, the stunts that only cyborgs could hope to perform, the mindfucks brought on by characters like Kim "the dollmaker" or The Lauging Man... just, why, why, why?

The movie shouldn't be made, period. It's a cynical cash-grab playing off a well-known name. Compared to the mountain of problems that come with converting animation to live-action/CGI, the skin color of a main character- who doesn't actually have human skin- is irrelevant.

Probably a manufactured "problem" made by advertisers to draw in audiences unfamiliar with the series.

 

[Jux]

If I'm spending 100 million dollars on a movie, you'd god damn right I'm casting people who will make that money back. There's nothing racist about that mentality, and calling it such devalues the word racism in the eyes of society because it makes it impossible to take an accusation of someone being such seriously.

The reasoning behind it though is racist. It's not like we don't have a history of white washing stories of PoC to 'make them palatable' with general (white) audiences. Hollywood is being complicitly racist here, operating under the assumption that white actors and actresses are needed to make movies profitable. And it becomes a self feeding cycle, because when you have that mentality when casting, non white actors and actresses don't have as many chances to actually make it big, so the status quo remains.

 

[McElroy]

And how is the fact that there is no Asian actress who is a big enough star to justify the making of such a movie racism? If I'm spending 100 million dollars on a movie, you'd god damn right I'm casting people who will make that money back. There's nothing racist about that mentality, and calling it such devalues the word racism in the eyes of society because it makes it impossible to take an accusation of someone being such seriously.

That's the thing, isn't it. Without a bankable and globally marketable lead (among a load of other things I'm guessing) the movie wouldn't be made at all. The fans might complain about whitewashing and at the same time no fan, including the OGs in Japan, is expecting a Hollywood adaptation to be "Japanese". As far as I understand the only people who would prefer no movie over a whitewashed adaptation are fans of the manga and/or anime(s). Maybe the movie sucks and they will get their snark, but for now the only reasonable response is proceeding as planned.

Their only racism is the box office race-ism (holy crap I'm original). It's just common sense the Chinese wouldn't go see a "Japanese" movie made by Americans.

 

[Zontar]

The reasoning behind it though is racist.

No, it's not, it's purely economic and anyone believing otherwise has never taken a highschool level economics 101 or business 101 class.

It's not like we don't have a history of white washing stories of PoC to 'make them palatable' with general (white) audiences.

So Hollywood is like literally every single entertainment industry the world has where when adapting a foreign property locals are used? Well who the hell could have possibly guessed that? Except for everyone, because just like how in Japan stars are predominately Japanese, in China they are predominately Chinese, in India they are predominately Indian, in Nigeria they are predominately Nigerian, that in the US the group which makes up three quarters of the population would have the lion's share of staring roles?

Hollywood is being complicitly racist here, operating under the assumption that white actors and actresses are needed to make movies profitable.

No, they are operating under the (objectively correct) assumption that for a +$100 million movie, you need actors who have name recognition to even hope to brake even. The fact that in a country that has three quarters of the population be of a single race that the industry would reflect that is not racist, in fact it's racist to imply otherwise given the implication that some races are inherently superior at acting is given in such a statement.

If you cast a no-name actress who is white, it'll flop just as hard as a no-name actress who is Asian. That's why when actors rise from the lower or middle end movies to big ones, they're always part of an ensemble with actual big name actors. A perfect example of this is literally every big budget movie of the past 40 years.

And it becomes a self feeding cycle, because when you have that mentality when casting, non white actors and actresses don't have as many chances to actually make it big, so the status quo remains.

Except that's not how it works. The cycle you speak of isn't about race (hell this is Hollywood we're talking about, a place which openly takes pride in trying to cast as many minorities as possible without adversely effecting the bottom line), it's about name recognition, recognition that comes from small independent productions, theatre or television.

To state that non white actors and actresses just does not match up with reality when you get right down to it. If they didn't why has the industry led quite a few Americans to believe there are almost triple as many African Americans in the US as there actually are [http://www.gallup.com/poll/4435/public-overestimates-us-black-hispanic-populations.aspx]? Seems that opportunities aren't quite lacking, especially at the top given how African Americans (amongst other groups) have an almost exact proportional representation at evens such as the Oscars as they do within the general population.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I don't get what the big deal is. The Major didn't look all that Japanese in the Anime anyway. Yes it kinda sucks that the don't have a Japanese actress in the lead role, but I'm not going to write off the movie because of it.

 

[Jux]

No, it's not, it's purely economic and anyone believing otherwise has never taken a highschool level economics 101 or business 101 class.

Well that's categorically untrue.

So Hollywood is like literally every single entertainment industry the world has where when adapting a foreign property locals are used? Well who the hell could have possibly guessed that? Except for everyone, because just like how in Japan stars are predominately Japanese, in China they are predominately Chinese, in India they are predominately Indian, in Nigeria they are predominately Nigerian, that in the US the group which makes up three quarters of the population would have the lion's share of staring roles?

Nice dodge, but I'm talking specifically about whitewashing here. There isn't a shortage of actors that could play those roles, and playing the 'but america is mostly white' card is a sad excuse, and nakedly transparent.

No, they are operating under the (objectively correct) assumption that for a +$100 million movie, you need actors who have name recognition to even hope to brake (sic) even.

Transformers begs to differ.

http://www.vulture.com/2012/07/why-stars-dont-matter-gavin-polone.html

My review of past box-office performance shows little correlation between ?star vehicles? and hits. Looking at last year?s top 100 films at the U.S. box office (excluding animated pictures, which don?t succeed or fail because of movie stars? voices, and sequels, which shouldn?t count as star vehicles), I see 21 starless films that, given their reported production budgets, probably made money. The list includes Thor, Planet of the Apes, Captain America, The Help, Bridesmaids, Super 8, Immortals, War Horse, and Dolphin Tale. Using that same criteria, I see 21 star vehicles (movies led by someone who, in the recent past, had starred in another hit movie) that made money. Then I looked at the probable money-losers in the top 100. As far as I can tell, there was just one starless movie that lost money, Sucker Punch, while there were sixteen money-losers with touted, proven names, including Cowboys & Aliens, Red Riding Hood, and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close. If you go back ten years before that, you?ll see a similar dispersal of winners to losers with the first Fast and the Furious, Save the Last Dance, and Legally Blonde (the movie that made Reese Witherspoon a star) in the win column and Jennifer Lopez?s Angel Eyes, Jim Carrey?s The Majestic, and Martin Lawrence?s What?s the Worst That Can Happen? going the other way. Ten years before that, Fried Green Tomatoes was a big hit and Robert De Niro?s Guilty by Suspicion was a huge bomb.

The fact that in a country that has three quarters of the population be of a single race that the industry would reflect that is not racist, in fact it's racist to imply otherwise given the implication that some races are inherently superior at acting is given in such a statement.

Are we really pulling the 'you're the real racist for calling our racism' card? we're only on the first page, seems a bit early for that. And no, not whitewashing films doesn't imply that 'certain races' are inherently better actors.

If you cast a no-name actress who is white, it'll flop just as hard as a no-name actress who is Asian. That's why when actors rise from the lower or middle end movies to big ones, they're always part of an ensemble with actual big name actors. A perfect example of this is literally every big budget movie of the past 40 years.

My source above seems to disagree.

Except that's not how it works. The cycle you speak of isn't about race (hell this is Hollywood we're talking about, a place which openly takes pride in trying to cast as many minorities as possible without adversely effecting the bottom line), it's about name recognition, recognition that comes from small independent productions, theatre or television.

To state that non white actors and actresses just does not match up with reality when you get right down to it. If they didn't why has the industry led quite a few Americans to believe there are almost triple as many African Americans in the US as there actually are? Seems that opportunities aren't quite lacking, especially at the top given how African Americans (amongst other groups) have an almost exact proportional representation at evens such as the Oscars as they do within the general population.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2016/01/14/oscarssowhite-but-here-are-7-great-2015-performances-by-black-actors/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/11/17/hollywoods-most-valuable-stars-are-still-overwhelmingly-white-and-male/

Go ahead, pull the other one.

Oh, and your gallup poll doesn't say what you claim it does. No where in that link does it say peoples perceptions about the population % of black and hispanic people were influenced by the movie industry. Try again.

From your source:

Perhaps because lower-income and nonwhite Americans are more likely to come into contact with blacks and Hispanics, these subgroups are most likely to overestimate the U.S. black and Hispanic populations. The average nonwhite estimates that 40% of the U.S. population is black and 35% of the population is Hispanic. Americans earning less than $20,000 estimate the black percentage of the U.S. population to be 42%, and the Hispanic percentage to comprise 37%. At the other end of the spectrum, adults earning at least $75,000 and adults with a college degree or postgraduate education are least likely to overestimate these populations.

edit: And if you're really going to play the 'proportional representation' game, whats with the lack of female led movies? Pretty sure about half the country is women.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

The reasoning behind it though is racist. It's not like we don't have a history of white washing stories of PoC to 'make them palatable' with general (white) audiences. Hollywood is being complicitly racist here, operating under the assumption that white actors and actresses are needed to make movies profitable. And it becomes a self feeding cycle, because when you have that mentality when casting, non white actors and actresses don't have as many chances to actually make it big, so the status quo remains.

Are you upset that Japan washed over the ethnicities of most everyone in the Attack on Titan live action movie? I mean, those characters are *clearly* meant to be of a Germanic descent. But oh man, Japan makes a movie about it and suddenly everyone is Asian? Well, fuck that. They're clearly racist.

 

[Jux]

The reasoning behind it though is racist. It's not like we don't have a history of white washing stories of PoC to 'make them palatable' with general (white) audiences. Hollywood is being complicitly racist here, operating under the assumption that white actors and actresses are needed to make movies profitable. And it becomes a self feeding cycle, because when you have that mentality when casting, non white actors and actresses don't have as many chances to actually make it big, so the status quo remains.

Are you upset that Japan washed over the ethnicities of most everyone in the Attack on Titan live action movie? I mean, those characters are *clearly* meant to be of a Germanic descent. But oh man, Japan makes a movie about it and suddenly everyone is Asian? Well, fuck that. They're clearly racist.

Well, first I would advise learning about what white washing entails and why it's wrong before you go around tossing out false equivalences.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

Not that I'd respect them any more for dropping the facade and just saying "We made this casting choice because money", but no one is really fooled by this.

And yes, whitewashing MajorKusanagi (who I hear they aren't even referring to her last name in the movie. yea, whitewashed) is racist. Saying 'an asian actress can't carry a box office hit' is in fact rooted in racism.

At the very least it's founded in an obsolete way of thinking. The fact of the matter is that the guys making excuses for this kind of crap still believe that the only demographic they need to pander to is the 18-30 white male. Except reality has been rearing its ugly head in recent years what with America becoming more ethnically diverse and the overseas market expanding. And that's before getting into how "star power" is a term that is quickly becoming extinct as fewer and fewer actors are box office draws. Johanssen is not a ticket seller despite her being a great actress as her only big movies are the Marvel films. This whole thing came about due to Hollywood once again ignoring the facts and refusing to adapt to the changing times.

 

[Jux]

At the very least it's founded in an obsolete way of thinking. The fact of the matter is that the guys making excuses for this kind of crap still believe that the only demographic they need to pander to is the 18-30 white male. Except reality has been rearing its ugly head in recent years what with America becoming more ethnically diverse and the overseas market expanding. And that's before getting into how "star power" is a term that is quickly becoming extinct as fewer and fewer actors are box office draws. Johanssen is not a ticket seller despite her being a great actress as her only big movies are the Marvel films. This whole thing came about due to Hollywood once again ignoring the facts and refusing to adapt to the changing times.

Yup. No argument here. I think GITS has the potential to be a smart movie if they explore the same, or similar themes the source material did. No simple rehash of the story though, unless they just want to do a cash grab on peoples nostalgia.