Ghostbusters Director Calls Out "Assholes in Geek Culture"

[Redd the Sock]

Observation: Those complaining about the "angry geek culture" are usually the ones doing the least amount of things to make them happy. Seriously, Just once I'd like the anger at geek culture be "we tried so hard to make you happy and you're unreasonable" instead of "we did things indifferent to you if not things we knew would openly piss you off but we expect you to be quiet and like it because only Anita Sarkesian and other progressives are allowed to be angry / openly critical at things they don't like but could just ignore."

I mena, this movie had an uphill battle to begin with, and our "assholery" stems from being bitten a bit too often. Beloved franchise being rebooted many many years after its prime is hard enough. We have the Star Wars Prequels and Indy 4 to thank for that. Then, you take a very character driven comedy and change up the actors giving it a very different dynamic (can't think of a geek example, but hey, Caddyshack 2 and Blues Brothers 2000 fit that bill). Further go ahead and ignore reactions to Michael Bay's Transformers or Ninja Turtles and get surprised that drastic changes don't go over well. And that was before the trailer hit.

It's sad when I watch the trailer for this thing the only 3 things that stand out are the punch line for a Bukakke joke, Leslie Jones' mugging of her SNL persona and calling it acting, and trying to make "failing at talking at the same time" a good joke. It took characters from "we came, we saw, we kicked it's ass" into characters I'm afraid will cross the streams by tripping over their own feet. That in and of itself would have made me thumb it down, but then we got the "hate thins = hating women" and the dislike got hit out of spite.

This movie continues to hide behind its politics. He may as well just say "see this 10 times or the MRAs win". I mean, I can honestly forgive the cash grab fanfiction this movie is as homages and new IPs are things of the past, but if I had tolerance for authors going "why does everyone hate me" I'd have never quit reading fanfiction. Even now I'm seeing that "thing about stuff" for reasons the game did poorly never being "the game sucked" so why should "geek culture" or whatever change behaviour obviously being used as a crutch by a narcissist upset his place in the history of great directors is in doubt.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

To be clear, a lot of the complaints, a staggering majority of th complaints aimed at this film are because they chose to make an all female cast. People are even calling this a gender swap, when the characters aren't the same characters from the original movie, but a brand new team of Ghostbusters. That is not gender swap, that's replacement. Still the huge backlash just on the idea of an all female Ghostbusters team is pretty much lodged in sexism and misogyny, because most of the complaints are about these new characters being female and only that.

The staggering majority of complaints were that the trailer looks like shit and I think the whole "genderbent" argument stems from the fact that the lines we have heard have been so poorly written they just fall into the basics of the archetypes the original cast occupied. (also the all female ghostbusters hinting at having a hot male working for them sorta doesn't help)

Also the complaints have not just been about the cast being female, there was also;
-Terrible ghost SFX
-Awful dubstep rendition of the classic theme
-Slime vagina joke that you'd expect from an Adam Sandler movie
-Slapstick humour that wouldn't entertain a 7 year old
-Rebooting a franchise after pretty much everyone with a lick of sense said it would be a terrible idea
-poor writing and editing in the trailer

This is what I mean, the actual critique of the movie is deflected because suddenly it's attacking these poor women and not the multibillion dollar industry that's pumped out another soulless reboot and is using these 4 actresses purely to deflect any criticism.

While those are all valid complaints, that's not what started the snowball rolling down hill. The fact is that most of the complaints have been sexist bullshit since the movie was first announced to have an all female cast. We're talking about months and months of bile about an all female Ghostbusters team before the trailer even hit, before casting was even announced. That's root issue in this case. There are people pissed off because they decided to go for an all female team, which is some how sacrilege to the redpillian truth of the first two movies or something like that.

Still him claiming that the all female cast was a "coincidence" is a flat lie, the movie was announced to have an all female cast before casting even started. That doesn't excuse the way the film has been attacked since that announcement, mostly by internet misogynists and misogynistic geeks/nerds. Especially not when the prominence that misogyny has in the geek/nerd community, where I'm surprised that comic book stores and tabletop game hobby stores don't have "no girls allowed" signs on the damn doors.

How do you define misogyny? People not appreciating gender being the primary consideration during casting sounds like they oppose sexism to me, or would it only be sexism if they purposely cast only white men?

Pretty simply I lay the definition of misogyny at the feet of people who actually believe women are inferior, don't deserve the right to vote, should stay at popping out babies and doing house work, and/or just plain hate women.

Earlier you said:

That doesn't excuse the way the film has been attacked since that announcement, mostly by internet misogynists and misogynistic geeks/nerds.

You must have evidence that most of the people who "attacked the film" are people who actually believe women are inferior, don't deserve the right to vote, should stay at popping out babies and doing house work, and/or just plain hate women?

Are we playing the "citation needed!!!" game? Because I'm not going to go hunt down the deluge of tweets, forum posts, along with the A Voice For Men, Return of Kings, and mountain of other blog posts about how making an all female team of Ghostbusters is wrong because women can't be Ghostbusters for some stupid sexist reason... All of which started before the trailer was released and the cast was announced.

That second question looks as loaded as the diapers of a toddler after discovering the chocolates in the bathroom. If someone writes a male character who is also white, then it's perfectly acceptable to only accept people who fall into those demographics. It only becomes sexist when you reject the idea that a woman can fill the same roles in films as a man, or default to blatant stereotyping, which is also how you apply that idea to racism, and other negative prejudices. I wouldn't call it sexist, or racist if they had chosen a pack of white guys for the new team, because that would follow the established dynamic anyways. Making all the Ghostbusters female seems kind of sexist, because as far as I can tell they're trying to pander. There is a big push currently for female inclusion in film and comedy, which has a tendency to end in pandering, instead of decently written characters that people are trying to include.

To be clear, a lot of the complaints, a staggering majority of th complaints aimed at this film are because they chose to make an all female cast. People are even calling this a gender swap, when the characters aren't the same characters from the original movie, but a brand new team of Ghostbusters. That is not gender swap, that's replacement. Still the huge backlash just on the idea of an all female Ghostbusters team is pretty much lodged in sexism and misogyny, because most of the complaints are about these new characters being female and only that.

Again, how is it misogyny to object to gender pandering? People who actually want gender equality don't appreciate "girl power" any more than they do "boy power" (that's a term that practically non-existent)

I never said that it was misogyny to object to gender pandering... So again, loaded question much? My whole point is that a huge portion of the this "controversy" started because they decided to make an all female Ghostbusters team. So instead of putting words in my mouth and attributing intentions to me, you actually read what I said. I'm a trans woman, as such the "girl power" trope strikes me as horrifically offensive, especially because it's used as an excuse to say how I've been brainwashed by feminists to hate my masculinity, thus to invalidate my female identity... Not to mention that "girl power" is always a patronizing stereotype, using the moving of goal posts to lower the standard if someone happens to be a cisgender female, but never is applied a transgender female... As people assume trans women are men, thus have all the strengths of men, then ignore the fact that hormone replacement therapy, a necessary part of transition for mental health, usually makes a trans woman proportionately weaker than a cis woman, because HRT's anti-androgens eliminate testosterone in the person taking that medication... Which means trans women tend to be a lot less physically capable than cis women... I mean for fuck sake... Yeah feminism made me choose to be a marginalized, misunderstood, and hated gender minority... Also water is dry and the sun is produces waves of coldness.

 

[Roboshi]

While those are all valid complaints, that's not what started the snowball rolling down hill. The fact is that most of the complaints have been sexist bullshit since the movie was first announced to have an all female cast. We're talking about months and months of bile about an all female Ghostbusters team before the trailer even hit, before casting was even announced. That's root issue in this case. There are people pissed off because they decided to go for an all female team, which is some how sacrilege to the redpillian truth of the first two movies or something like that.

Notice how all my "valid complaints" got swept under the rug the moment the idea of sexism got introduced. this is how a savvy director deals with poor reception.

And I'm sorry I can't vouch for everywhere you may have a different experience than me, but in the circles I've been in the general consensus was the movie was gonna suck the moment it was announced as a reboot rather than at the point the female cast was announced. Hell some of the people I knew were slightly MORE optimistic that the new cast would instil something new to the franchise.

Now Clearly you admit what I said about the trailer being bad is valid, so again let me ask you; if the trailer was that bad, why are the people downvoting it the assholes? Because if this trailer had turned out amazing with the best effects and best writing in the world the tune would've changed very quickly and we wouldn't be here.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Are we playing the "citation needed!!!" game? Because I'm not going to go hunt down the deluge of tweets, forum posts, along with the A Voice For Men, Return of Kings, and mountain of other blog posts about how making an all female team of Ghostbusters is wrong because women can't be Ghostbusters for some stupid sexist reason... All of which started before the trailer was released and the cast was announced.

Of course you aren't going to hunt down the evidence to prove that the people you say are misogynists are actually misogynists, you are just going to throw the term around loosely.

I don't what the fuck your last paragaph is going on about but I think you are saying that I used the term "girl power" as some sort of attack against you. Well, if that's the case then I'll explain a little better.

Most people who are accused of being misogynist just want actual equality and not female preferential equality that isn't really equality at all. When you set out to make an all star female cast film you are just as guilty of sexism as setting out to make an all star male cast film. If you mind is closed to a male or female playing a lead role in your film based on the fact they are male or female, you are the sexist and those who object to this sexism are not sexist (and therefore not misogynistic).

I hope that has cleared things up.

On another note and directed at everyone. I guess, we gamers would be considered part of the geek culture. Pretty sick of seeing gamers shooting themselves in the foot by agreeing that we are all assholes or similar.

 

[WeepingAngels]

I noticed that you didn't answer the question. Maybe you missed it?

Seeing as though Milo represents all white men to you, what do you consider a feminist? I take it's just "people you disagree with"? Or is it just people that talk about women in a positive light?

Seriously, are you going to answer the question I asked twice or are you going to continue to play games?

 

[Roboshi]

Has any of these things happened or is it all in your head? And by these things I mean studios furthering this "good cause" (of saying women exist?) or the "general message" the director and advertising is putting forward as this being "progressive".

I mean I haven't seen the director or the marketing or the studio try to pass this off as "progressive". In fact I'm struggling to see what's so "progressive" about it to be honest.

Do you remember the Spice Girls Movie? The Lorax Movie? The defending of the Fan4stic movie? A Movie studio will do whatever it can to make money and often they don't care what they use to advertise even if it's someone's firmly held beliefs. I mean how many movies have there been that have sold themselves as being "patriotic" or "religious inspiration" it's the same basic principal but for the new generation of people the studios believe exists.

And clearly they have conveyed the message their movie is progressive because anyone who hates the trailer is now a sexist. That's pretty much what the director is saying in the news post this entire threat started from. Sure he never used the word progressive but he has simply pushed on his critics an easy to use label as bad people ruining his project.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Seriously, are you going to answer the question I asked twice or are you going to continue to play games?

You can ask 50 times if you want, but your question relies on some pretty important information that you're, suspiciously, leaving out.

If you don't want to ask again then trying giving that important information.

What important information would that be? You want me to define who feminists are? I provided a link already to feminists protesting.

 

[Roboshi]

So it is all in your head then? It hasn't been pushed as being progressive by the studio or director? Hell you even said "they have conveyed the message their movie is progressive because anyone who hates the trailer is now a sexist", so you do have a link to them calling people who hate the trailer sexist at least?

Like I said, they don't have to, threads like this all over the internet are doing the work for them. And when the director calls all criticism of his movie "assholes in geek culture" it's pretty clear exactly what he mains even keeping the focus of his discussion on the female casting.

I admit I've worded these posts absolutely poorly, but I feel that in a few years time we'll look back on this cast list the same way we look back at token black characters today, ie as a cyincal attempt to throw a bone to people with genuine desires for a more diverse cast.

And I feel that if we swallow this crap things won't improve.

Fact is, I'm not happy that I'm in the position to hate something misogynist also hate. But the trailer doesn't look anything other than bad.

 

[TechNoFear]

I noticed that you didn't answer the question. Maybe you missed it?

You don't think the feminists would be raising hell if the film had 4 white men as the Ghostbusters?

No.

But I think there might be some comments if they remade Little Women with an all male cast.

 

[Something Amyss]

It might have to do with the systemic way this movie has come under fire, heavier than any other "hated" or "garbage" movie has. See below.

I know it's being heaped on the 'because there's women' pile, and it certainly attracts people like that, but I find it odd then that movies like Fury Road, Zootopia, The Force Awakens, and the recent Rogue One trailer got off scott free. Those movies also had their 'women suck' crowd, but it was fairly marginal.[/quote]

Well, if you downplayed the response and redefined scot free, then yes, they got off scot free. But I'm guessing you're clearly aware of that not being true, since you already acknowledge the response to these movies despite the downplay.

Except Zootopia, but I can understand that one easily. You had the manosphere preaching that this was a movie that showed the evils of socialism, how dangerous feminists are, etc. Seriously, this is a thing. Check it out on YoutTube if you don't mind your recs being ruined. Keep in mind, I have not seen this movie, and I'm aware the general response to this line of thinking appears to be "LOLwot" but it is a thing.

And it would readily keep people from protesting it.

I don't even need to go that far, though. There's more than a few instances in gaming over the last couple of years which are pretty good indicators that a group won't necessarily latch on to an item for a particularly logical reason, and good luck finding the why as to that specific one got picked out of all the others. Since pretty much every single one is a guaranteed thread derail, I won't name them, but I bet you can guess. I bet you can actually intuit why this is a thing that happens, too.

 

[Roboshi]

Pretty sure if you make things up in your head then they wont improve. Try not to look for things that aren't there and it will.

I wish I could live in your world were multibillion corporations only do things they think will make the world a better place rather than exploiting peoples beliefs for money.

 

[Roboshi]

I'm honestly glad I don't live in your world full of conspiracy theories about women being "progressive" and, quite literally, made up things about directors and studios. The real world suits me fine, to be honest.

Corporations exploit people is a conspiracy these days? I wouldn't mention that to the 99%

Like I admited, I worded my argument very poorly, but my point stands, these actresses are being used purely as a shield and it has worked so far as the real problems the trailer had have been buried under a mound of sexism talk.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

While those are all valid complaints, that's not what started the snowball rolling down hill. The fact is that most of the complaints have been sexist bullshit since the movie was first announced to have an all female cast. We're talking about months and months of bile about an all female Ghostbusters team before the trailer even hit, before casting was even announced. That's root issue in this case. There are people pissed off because they decided to go for an all female team, which is some how sacrilege to the redpillian truth of the first two movies or something like that.

Notice how all my "valid complaints" got swept under the rug the moment the idea of sexism got introduced. this is how a savvy director deals with poor reception.

And I'm sorry I can't vouch for everywhere you may have a different experience than me, but in the circles I've been in the general consensus was the movie was gonna suck the moment it was announced as a reboot rather than at the point the female cast was announced. Hell some of the people I knew were slightly MORE optimistic that the new cast would instil something new to the franchise.

Now Clearly you admit what I said about the trailer being bad is valid, so again let me ask you; if the trailer was that bad, why are the people downvoting it the assholes? Because if this trailer had turned out amazing with the best effects and best writing in the world the tune would've changed very quickly and we wouldn't be here.

I never accused the people downvoting the trailer of being assholes. I simply stated that we have months of bitching revolving around the the main cast being all female and why that's going to make the movie suck, that came before the announcement of a reboot... I also never directly addressed the idea on weather nor not the film will suck on it's own annoucements. The thing is that the hate directed at this film and director far predate the trailer.

Nice job mis-characterizing my argument into a nice man made of straw.

Are we playing the "citation needed!!!" game? Because I'm not going to go hunt down the deluge of tweets, forum posts, along with the A Voice For Men, Return of Kings, and mountain of other blog posts about how making an all female team of Ghostbusters is wrong because women can't be Ghostbusters for some stupid sexist reason... All of which started before the trailer was released and the cast was announced.

Of course you aren't going to hunt down the evidence to prove that the people you say are misogynists are actually misogynists, you are just going to throw the term around loosely.

I don't what the fuck your last paragaph is going on about but I think you are saying that I used the term "girl power" as some sort of attack against you. Well, if that's the case then I'll explain a little better.

Most people who are accused of being misogynist just want actual equality and not female preferential equality that isn't really equality at all. When you set out to make an all star female cast film you are just as guilty of sexism as setting out to make an all star male cast film. If you mind is closed to a male or female playing a lead role in your film based on the fact they are male or female, you are the sexist and those who object to this sexism are not sexist (and therefore not misogynistic).

I hope that has cleared things up.

On another note and directed at everyone. I guess, we gamers would be considered part of the geek culture. Pretty sick of seeing gamers shooting themselves in the foot by agreeing that we are all assholes or similar.

Really, because you failed to put up any links to validate your position in the first place. Demanding sources is a classic tactic of invalidating an argument without actually arguing aginst it.

I agreed with you on the "girl power" thing, you twisted that into a strawman to discredit my argument without actually addressing it. Again the "girl power" trope is a stereotype used to move goal posts to favor females.

Next you spray an internet MRA talking point. Somehow conflating casting choices with sexism, because reasons, without addressing the fact that I'm fine with people making casting choices based on the characters as written. So that's another worthless strawman you fabricated from thin air.

I hope this has cleared up how you're putting words in my mouth, accusing me of sexism, while being overall intellectually dishonest on the subject.