Give Me Dessert First
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
I would like to say that I think it's hilarious that someone used a screenshot from Snake Gulch for the page 2 image after the tirade I put up about the place last week.
I do believe I have been successfully taunted.
I do believe I have been successfully taunted.
This is a argument I got into with my friend one day about WoW. I told him I hated games that made you 'work' for fun. I want to play games for entertainment and challenge, not because it's my second job. Maybe thats why I don't play MMO's anymore...
Huh, I always figured you chose what pictures to put in your articles.
Anyhow, great article. A lot of food for thought. I think a lot of the "old ways of doing things" are the main reason I never got into MMOs -- though to be fair, the first, and last, MMO I spent any amount of time playing was Ultima Online 8 or 9 years ago. But seeing what you have to say about Champions is making me think about giving it another shot sometime.
Anyhow, great article. A lot of food for thought. I think a lot of the "old ways of doing things" are the main reason I never got into MMOs -- though to be fair, the first, and last, MMO I spent any amount of time playing was Ultima Online 8 or 9 years ago. But seeing what you have to say about Champions is making me think about giving it another shot sometime.
being quite a fan of your work im beginning to be intrigued by champions online, but since i still fell the scorn of aion it might be awhile before i dare go into a new mmorpg, btw for those of you who like the ol' fashion mmorpgs, aion is grind tastic, hard and borderline boring.
EDIT: forgot to write IMO, good thing i made it before i stepped on any toes.
EDIT: forgot to write IMO, good thing i made it before i stepped on any toes.
Hmm, to be honest, the problem I had with City of Heroes is the fact that the endgame was dull as hell, from what everyone was telling me; when your looking forward to see what you'll be able to do as a max-level character, its extremely dispiriting to hear where-ever you go "OMG, Lvl 50 is so dull" and "XP Farming mission lfp" - and the mission editor thing didn't really help all that much.
I think the idea of removing the grind from the early game is a good idea; don't get me wrong, I agree with that. But developers DO need to make the "endgame" fun too. Hence why I'm giving Eve online a trial; it might be abit of a grind to get up to the top, but when I do, I'll have an evoluting, player driven world to deal with. I hope.
I think the idea of removing the grind from the early game is a good idea; don't get me wrong, I agree with that. But developers DO need to make the "endgame" fun too. Hence why I'm giving Eve online a trial; it might be abit of a grind to get up to the top, but when I do, I'll have an evoluting, player driven world to deal with. I hope.
This is a really interesting discussion to me. I'm a big retro gamer (especially SNES RPGs), but I've found that modern-day games are immediately more fun, and that I think it's a terrific change of pace. Crackdown is a good example; you've got super strength right off the bat and it's instantly fun.
I reviewed Dark Spire (DS) [http://www.gamesradar.com/ds/the-dark-spire/review/the-dark-spire/a-20090518145357896028/g-20081218172959531054] and gave it a low rating because, in an effort to be oldschool, it just annoyed me. But maybe that's because I don't care for that type of game anymore, but other people still do. I think there will be a market for that type of game for some time.
I reviewed Dark Spire (DS) [http://www.gamesradar.com/ds/the-dark-spire/review/the-dark-spire/a-20090518145357896028/g-20081218172959531054] and gave it a low rating because, in an effort to be oldschool, it just annoyed me. But maybe that's because I don't care for that type of game anymore, but other people still do. I think there will be a market for that type of game for some time.
True, I think alot of old time gamers do ignore that. I will admit that even I've rolled my eyes over thisrichtaur said:
I think the problem is that alot of new games with faster access at the same time dumb down the games (COUGH-Deus Ex 2-COUGH), and so the knee jerk reactions of older gamers is to end up seeing faster access to 'the fun bits' as being a sign of dumbing down.Of course, a game can manage fine without jumping straight to 'da fun', if its done right.
All valuable thoughts, if you are reviewing a single player game. But in a context of MMO they don't make any sense. You are throwing in words like grind & content to suit your arguments, but not the facts. And I'd buy into all that if I hadn't actually played both games. How is a game with eight starting zones per faction suddenly lacking beginners? content vs. a game that has only two starting areas? Or is it about the number of quests, or depth of the story?
The only valuable point is that time spend travelling in MMOs is wasted and should be reduced to zero by giving everyone teleports to instantly go wherever they want. But the reason for that has nothing to do with content, grinding, meeting other people or being lvl20-full epic-dragon disciple at the start. It is because it keeps people away from their favourite activity of whacking stuff with sticks.
The only valuable point is that time spend travelling in MMOs is wasted and should be reduced to zero by giving everyone teleports to instantly go wherever they want. But the reason for that has nothing to do with content, grinding, meeting other people or being lvl20-full epic-dragon disciple at the start. It is because it keeps people away from their favourite activity of whacking stuff with sticks.
Hey, the new installment of Why MMO's aren't Fun is here!
There's a good way to look at it, the higher levels hoarding all the fun of the game. Here's another spin on that... MMO's are pay to play. On average, diligent gamers would reach the level cap their first time around in roughly a year, and with level caps often increased, it could be more. Since most all the content is locked until then, you might as well have been playing the demo over and over for a game you pre-ordered. Let's assume that the game is $40 for the box and $15 a month That cash adds up to you paying anywhere from $70 (if you're a freak of nature) to $220+ (a year) for a game. Now this is a question for any MMO players that have reached the cap. Is the game from that turning point worth that much money?
There's a good way to look at it, the higher levels hoarding all the fun of the game. Here's another spin on that... MMO's are pay to play. On average, diligent gamers would reach the level cap their first time around in roughly a year, and with level caps often increased, it could be more. Since most all the content is locked until then, you might as well have been playing the demo over and over for a game you pre-ordered. Let's assume that the game is $40 for the box and $15 a month That cash adds up to you paying anywhere from $70 (if you're a freak of nature) to $220+ (a year) for a game. Now this is a question for any MMO players that have reached the cap. Is the game from that turning point worth that much money?
I don't think I'll ever get into MMO's but if I do, then I certainly won't be playing Women of Wrestli... I mean World of Warcraft. This is just one of the reasons why I'll never to try it out. Other reasons include not wanting to get addicted to one game and keeping my weight down.
Hear hear.
I guess there's two kinds of players; the ones that will leave quickly once the bored, and the one's who'll go on to the endgame regardless. Traditional games lose the first player rather quickly, so if you can front-load your content then you can keep them going for longer.
Which is what the character creator does, I suppose.
Anyway, MMOs are mostly time-sinks once the social aspects kick in, so facilitating that is what is most important to the "long termers". Wierdly, I never see the social aspects reviewed any more for MMOs, so I guess they're all standardized? I'll never know.
I'll stop blathering now.
I guess there's two kinds of players; the ones that will leave quickly once the bored, and the one's who'll go on to the endgame regardless. Traditional games lose the first player rather quickly, so if you can front-load your content then you can keep them going for longer.
Which is what the character creator does, I suppose.
Anyway, MMOs are mostly time-sinks once the social aspects kick in, so facilitating that is what is most important to the "long termers". Wierdly, I never see the social aspects reviewed any more for MMOs, so I guess they're all standardized? I'll never know.
I'll stop blathering now.
Well this is a first, an Experienced Points that I disagree with. Not entirely, but on some points.
I found my first play through of WoW to be one of the most enjoyable gaming experiences I have ever had. But I think that was to do with the reason I was playing it. I was taking the experience as it came, enjoying earning the right to explore all the new areas, watching my character slowly become more powerful. I wasn't focusing on an end point, on getting to a destination, because quite frankly I didn't know what came at the end. I was a true newb. When I got to the level cap I felt like I had really completed a journey. And what do you know, at the end of my epic journey I found there was almost a whole new game to enjoy.
On my second character though, I would agree with you completely. It was hard going, because all of the surprise was gone. I had already explored all of the fantastic scenery, completed all the amusing and fun quests before. I had been there and done that. Recently though, blizzard have added some stuff to the game to make it much easier to level an alt. There is experience increasing gear that you buy on your level 80 and send to your alt, and mounts at lower levels. (Yeah I know that one applies to first-timers as well, but seriously, who cares? All mounts do is reduce traveling time. They don't make it any easier to level, just faster.) I'm just gutted that that stuff only came out when I was really close to the level cap. Pfft.
I'll agree that blizzard do make you work too hard for your rewards. At some points, especially on alts, it does become a complete fucking chore. The only things that stopped me from quitting at those points were guild mates and friends.
I'd be apprehensive about playing a game that throws the rewards at you thick and fast from the beginning. I haven't played CO, but I'd be worried that the later levels became boring, as you had already been given everything they had to offer. Is this the case, or do they ration the new content right up 'till the max level?
Jesus this post has gotten pretty long, probably won't get a response. Ah well, thought I'd give my two cents.
NOTE - Recently I've gotten really bored with end-game WoW, but that's more to do with my laptop not being good enough to hold up in raids/instances than lack of content.
I found my first play through of WoW to be one of the most enjoyable gaming experiences I have ever had. But I think that was to do with the reason I was playing it. I was taking the experience as it came, enjoying earning the right to explore all the new areas, watching my character slowly become more powerful. I wasn't focusing on an end point, on getting to a destination, because quite frankly I didn't know what came at the end. I was a true newb. When I got to the level cap I felt like I had really completed a journey. And what do you know, at the end of my epic journey I found there was almost a whole new game to enjoy.
On my second character though, I would agree with you completely. It was hard going, because all of the surprise was gone. I had already explored all of the fantastic scenery, completed all the amusing and fun quests before. I had been there and done that. Recently though, blizzard have added some stuff to the game to make it much easier to level an alt. There is experience increasing gear that you buy on your level 80 and send to your alt, and mounts at lower levels. (Yeah I know that one applies to first-timers as well, but seriously, who cares? All mounts do is reduce traveling time. They don't make it any easier to level, just faster.) I'm just gutted that that stuff only came out when I was really close to the level cap. Pfft.
I'll agree that blizzard do make you work too hard for your rewards. At some points, especially on alts, it does become a complete fucking chore. The only things that stopped me from quitting at those points were guild mates and friends.
I'd be apprehensive about playing a game that throws the rewards at you thick and fast from the beginning. I haven't played CO, but I'd be worried that the later levels became boring, as you had already been given everything they had to offer. Is this the case, or do they ration the new content right up 'till the max level?
Jesus this post has gotten pretty long, probably won't get a response. Ah well, thought I'd give my two cents.
NOTE - Recently I've gotten really bored with end-game WoW, but that's more to do with my laptop not being good enough to hold up in raids/instances than lack of content.
I find this article interesting. I understand your WoW argument. I played as an Undead didn't see a single player until I made it to the main city. And even then all the were doing was trying to sell me gold while all I did was make potions.
I do think that games should give you content from the beginning and keeping at it. It shouldn't be a massive uphill battle, like you said, just to get to the fun parts.
I do think that games should give you content from the beginning and keeping at it. It shouldn't be a massive uphill battle, like you said, just to get to the fun parts.
Not sure if I agree.
I've created literally hundreds of CoX characters, but Frostfire is such a damn good mission. (You'll know if you've played it)
EQ though, I had a Paineel Cleric and slowly ekeing out into the world after the Kobold Tunnels (Grr.Grr. Bark Bark) was a journey of discovery. And seeing the Planar Gods was as awesome as...there are no words to describe it.
CoX did drag in the later levels, but there was always so much you could do instead. EQ concentrated purely on the game.
WoW just upset me from the start for spoonfeeding the plot (as did EQ2 tbf, but the background was wonderful, even if the combat sucked) and Champions has just been sold as CoX with a polish.
There's a difference between spoonfeeding and grinding and only some games get it.
I've created literally hundreds of CoX characters, but Frostfire is such a damn good mission. (You'll know if you've played it)
EQ though, I had a Paineel Cleric and slowly ekeing out into the world after the Kobold Tunnels (Grr.Grr. Bark Bark) was a journey of discovery. And seeing the Planar Gods was as awesome as...there are no words to describe it.
CoX did drag in the later levels, but there was always so much you could do instead. EQ concentrated purely on the game.
WoW just upset me from the start for spoonfeeding the plot (as did EQ2 tbf, but the background was wonderful, even if the combat sucked) and Champions has just been sold as CoX with a polish.
There's a difference between spoonfeeding and grinding and only some games get it.
A good article, but it doesn't reflect my point of view.
I started to give WoW (and MMOs in general) another shot a month ago and was really surprised in a pleasan way how it is handled there.
Now to understand my perspective, I have to admit that the last times I played MMOs were Ragnarok and Dofus. The latter one at a time when WoW just got out.
Those are games where we talk about level 100 (200 with Dofus) caps and you had to spend a week of playing just to advance a level from 80 on.
I'm still hooked with WoW, but the big difference here (as other commenters mentioned) is that I am not strifing for raids, endgame content..etc. Just exploring and getting to know some lore through quests is done really well and I prefer that over pure farming/grinding any time.
But I can perfectly understand if someone who is not into questing would ask for easier level progression. But then again, a MMO is not the usual 6-12 hours game off the shelf and maybe it would be unfair to assume the same speed of progression there.
I started to give WoW (and MMOs in general) another shot a month ago and was really surprised in a pleasan way how it is handled there.
Now to understand my perspective, I have to admit that the last times I played MMOs were Ragnarok and Dofus. The latter one at a time when WoW just got out.
Those are games where we talk about level 100 (200 with Dofus) caps and you had to spend a week of playing just to advance a level from 80 on.
I'm still hooked with WoW, but the big difference here (as other commenters mentioned) is that I am not strifing for raids, endgame content..etc. Just exploring and getting to know some lore through quests is done really well and I prefer that over pure farming/grinding any time.
But I can perfectly understand if someone who is not into questing would ask for easier level progression. But then again, a MMO is not the usual 6-12 hours game off the shelf and maybe it would be unfair to assume the same speed of progression there.
I believe City of Heroes is older than World of Warcraft, by the wayShamus Young said:
Anyway, I find myself agreeing heartily with this article, but I think City of Heroes had too much faith in the Badge system keeping players on a single character after they hit max level. To an extent, they're right - my hero has something in the region of 500 badges, but I'd never do that again with any of my other characters. Champions is worse - kill 5,000 Purple Hat Gangers? No.
Champions is good with the pace it hands out new toys, though. Level 6 - travel power, level 15 - new costume slot, 25 - Nemesis, 35(ish) - second Nemesis. I'm sincerely hoping that they have something to keep the game going with a single character beyond UNITY in a couple of months.
Huh, you actually said something positive about Champions this time.
Anyway, glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that hours of grinding to level 10 to see if I like the character is rediculous.
But then again, I was turned of WoW for a number of reasons, mainly because the friend that wanted me to play was basically being an ass the whole time we were playing.
But I won't bore you with my stories...
Anyway, I agree with your article, looking forward to the next one.
Anyway, glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that hours of grinding to level 10 to see if I like the character is rediculous.
But then again, I was turned of WoW for a number of reasons, mainly because the friend that wanted me to play was basically being an ass the whole time we were playing.
But I won't bore you with my stories...
Anyway, I agree with your article, looking forward to the next one.
dnadns said:
The level caps in Ragnarok are 99. Getting to level 40 isn't that big of a deal on there, but it's not sunshine and butterflies, either. Also, if you wanted to be a little stronger, you had to RESET YOUR CHARACTER TO LEVEL 1 and gain 98 more levels.
I would love to see the day where they gave people the CHOICE between grinding and having content upfront. It would attract both types of players and increase profits.