Give Me Dessert First

Doug

New member
Apr 23, 2008
5,205
0
0
Samurai Goomba said:
Doug said:
Samurai Goomba said:
Doug said:
richtaur said:
This is a really interesting discussion to me. I'm a big retro gamer (especially SNES RPGs), but I've found that modern-day games are immediately more fun, and that I think it's a terrific change of pace. Crackdown is a good example; you've got super strength right off the bat and it's instantly fun.
True, I think alot of old time gamers do ignore that. I will admit that even I've rolled my eyes over this ;) I think the problem is that alot of new games with faster access at the same time dumb down the games (COUGH-Deus Ex 2-COUGH), and so the knee jerk reactions of older gamers is to end up seeing faster access to 'the fun bits' as being a sign of dumbing down.

Of course, a game can manage fine without jumping straight to 'da fun', if its done right.
Now, I haven't played the original Deus Ex. Maybe it is so amazing and impossibly good that all other games pale in comparison. Maybe it's able to cure Cancer. I don't know. But I did beat Deus Ex 2 recently, and I loved it. I guess you must be talking about the gameplay when you say "dumbing down," because the story is probably one of the most complex in gaming history. Every single thing you do has consequences, even doing nothing. You can kill pretty much anyone you ever meet. You can save the world or destroy it. What's even better is that every decision you make is in a moral gray area. There is no "right" choice. The sheer ambition of the narrative is astounding, with the sort of political and societal issues it tackles. I was feeling genuinely guilty for many of my decisions throughout the game.

If THAT is dumbing down a game, I'd like to see more game retardation, please.

Or maybe you meant it's more of a Chrono Trigger -> Chrono Cross case, where the sequel is good but rather lacking in comparison to the original masterwork.
Play Deus Ex 1 before commenting; if you thought the plot from Deus Ex 2 was good, you'll be blown away by Deus Ex 1; its got global conspiracies, ancient families, and corporate greed; I would go into more deepth, but it'd spoiler it for you. As for the freedom of choices in Deus Ex 2, well, lets just say there are parts of Deus Ex 1 I didn't even know I had a choice until I saw on YouTube a video showing a third option for solving what I'd thought was an on-off problem; and yet, the developers had thought about it and made the game react.

Edit 2: And don't get me wrong, I liked Deus Ex 2 as well, but it was like going out with the prettier but dumber sister of an ex.
Ah, I see. Well, guess I need to go find a version of Deus Ex to play. I suppose when you set the bar so high for yourself, anything even *slightly* less good is going to seem like absolute crap, even if it's not. I still really like Deus Ex 2, though. I just now know I have something even better to look forward to.
Oh, DEFINITELY! I think thats why alot of people overreacted and said "Deus ex 2 == total crap" - I don't think it was a bad game, just that it couldn't live up to the original. That said, I'm tempted to reinstall one or the other of them now, heh.
 

BarefootGamer

New member
Aug 23, 2009
26
0
0
Nice article Shamus! I agree that MMOs should bring the fun a lot earlier in the game's lifespan. That's one of the reasons why I have high hopes for SWTOR. With Bioware's usual focus on storytelling, I'm hoping the early levels of the game will be a lot more interesting than "Kill X amount of Y."
 

Samurai Goomba

New member
Oct 7, 2008
3,679
0
0
Doug said:
Oh, DEFINITELY! I think thats why alot of people overreacted and said "Deus ex 2 == total crap" - I don't think it was a bad game, just that it couldn't live up to the original. That said, I'm tempted to reinstall one or the other of them now, heh.
Yep. Personally, I'd suggest playing Deus Ex 2 again, if only because the visuals have held up better (I've seen the original in action and it is downright ugly) and the gameplay (while less complex) is streamlined. It's also shorter, from what I hear.

One thing that really annoyed me about Invisible War was that there are no credits after each ending, which left me wondering if I actually beat the game or not. All they give you are FMVs (fantastic though they are).

Also, I have a feeling I completely missed on out some weapons. I've seen screenshots of people using weapons which I've never once found in the game.

Oh, and I went with the Denton ending, then doubled back and got the Renegade one. But I definitely felt like Denton's cause was the most noble and interesting.

Oh, and I imagine that the Deus Ex -> Deus Ex 2 outrage will probably be repeated very soon with both Team Fortress 2 (if they ever make another one) and the Portal sequel.
 

SultanP

New member
Mar 15, 2009
985
0
0
Arbitrary Cidin said:
Hey, the new installment of Why MMO's aren't Fun is here!

There's a good way to look at it, the higher levels hoarding all the fun of the game. Here's another spin on that... MMO's are pay to play. On average, diligent gamers would reach the level cap their first time around in roughly a year, and with level caps often increased, it could be more. Since most all the content is locked until then, you might as well have been playing the demo over and over for a game you pre-ordered. Let's assume that the game is $40 for the box and $15 a month That cash adds up to you paying anywhere from $70 (if you're a freak of nature) to $220+ (a year) for a game. Now this is a question for any MMO players that have reached the cap. Is the game from that turning point worth that much money?
What you are forgetting is that even though MMOs cost much more, they also offer more play time and replayability. Some people have been playing wow, for example, for all of the five years that it has been out, and there are very few, if any games, other than MMOs that offer that amount of playing time. Many people wouldn't really have much to do without MMOs, maybe because most other hobbies don't apply to them, so yeah, an MMO can be worth that much money. You aren't paying for a regular game.
 

Mordwyl

New member
Feb 5, 2009
1,302
0
0
I hear you mentioned the beginning and the endgame in the article, yet in most of these discussions a very crucial point is missed for these games: The middlegame. While the start has to be fun and exciting so players will be compelled to play more and the endgame is there so players that manage to reach the peak still have something to do, the entire time between those two points is largely ignored and developers often do away with working on it to opt for repetitive grindplay.

There were a LOT of games which incorporated good means to take care of this problem (Legend of Zelda, Ratchet and Clank, and Overlord come to mind) so I don't really see how MMOs can fail at it. I've seen Blizzard have been making some very good improvements in their quests with Wrath of the Lich King so perhaps with Cataclysm's drastic changes to the world we'll see these happen everywhere.
 

dnadns

Divine Ronin
Jan 20, 2009
127
0
0
Xyphon said:
dnadns said:
A good article, but it doesn't reflect my point of view.
I started to give WoW (and MMOs in general) another shot a month ago and was really surprised in a pleasan way how it is handled there.
Now to understand my perspective, I have to admit that the last times I played MMOs were Ragnarok and Dofus. The latter one at a time when WoW just got out.
Those are games where we talk about level 100 (200 with Dofus) caps and you had to spend a week of playing just to advance a level from 80 on.

I'm still hooked with WoW, but the big difference here (as other commenters mentioned) is that I am not strifing for raids, endgame content..etc. Just exploring and getting to know some lore through quests is done really well and I prefer that over pure farming/grinding any time.

But I can perfectly understand if someone who is not into questing would ask for easier level progression. But then again, a MMO is not the usual 6-12 hours game off the shelf and maybe it would be unfair to assume the same speed of progression there.

The level caps in Ragnarok are 99. Getting to level 40 isn't that big of a deal on there, but it's not sunshine and butterflies, either. Also, if you wanted to be a little stronger, you had to RESET YOUR CHARACTER TO LEVEL 1 and gain 98 more levels.

I would love to see the day where they gave people the CHOICE between grinding and having content upfront. It would attract both types of players and increase profits.
Well, as I said, it has been quite a few years since I tried out Ragnarok and it took me 4-5 weeks to get to level 40. I might also add that some of my friends are (as me) not online all the time, so being able to level solo without grinding a lot as a major plus for the questing as seen in WoW. I think they managed to get a good balance on the group quests/dungeons.
It was a complete mess in Dofus where you basically had to go in groups for levels 100-200 to proceed anywhere without grinding on very small mobs. But to be honest, Blizz will most likely have a lot more staff working on content and there you see that all parts are much better balanced and evolved to allow several different types of play.
 

DObs

New member
Jul 4, 2009
36
0
0
Im quite interested to know how you got to lvl 30 on Champions Online without grinding. I've been playing it - and quite enjoying it - but levelling up is just grinding different variations on about 4 or 5 different quests over and over. What exactly is your definition of grinding?
 

Voltano

New member
Dec 11, 2008
374
0
0
richtaur said:
This is a really interesting discussion to me. I'm a big retro gamer (especially SNES RPGs), but I've found that modern-day games are immediately more fun, and that I think it's a terrific change of pace. Crackdown is a good example; you've got super strength right off the bat and it's instantly fun.

I reviewed Dark Spire (DS) [http://www.gamesradar.com/ds/the-dark-spire/review/the-dark-spire/a-20090518145357896028/g-20081218172959531054] and gave it a low rating because, in an effort to be oldschool, it just annoyed me. But maybe that's because I don't care for that type of game anymore, but other people still do. I think there will be a market for that type of game for some time.
I grew up on the SNES RPG genre as well and I personally love "Dark Spire" here. I also found a few conflicts with that review on my end, though that is getting off topic.

I'm not much of a fan of MMORPGs here as most that I found are basically "Diablo but demanding more money to play" formula. MMORPGs did spawn from the early days of MUDs, which came around the same time as roguelike games did where the "Diablo" series was based upon. So I'm not surprised really that Blizzard (or other developers) just took the "Diablo" formula and made it a pay-to-play system, which is what I think of WoW.

Though I also felt annoyed when my friends say something like this with WoW, saying something like, "The game only starts at level 20+". I kind of wonder on what is the point with all the beginning part if the game only starts "later". However, I don't blame the "grind factor" for these games, as they are used as tools to keep the player playing longer. I enjoy games with grind in them actually, like "Dark Spire" or "Depths of Peril" for the PC, though I understand that they are just time-sinks and are possibly being used by developers MMOs to milk more cash from my wallet. I usually just play the single-player format of grind games (like "Dark Spire") than deal with the expensive carrot-on-the-stick format used in MMORPGs.
 

Ojimaru

New member
Oct 7, 2009
24
0
0
Xyphon said:
I would love to see the day where they gave people the CHOICE between grinding and having content upfront. It would attract both types of players and increase profits.
Oh, I can already hear it...

Normal Servers = Cell Block C
Content-Up-Front servers = Cell Block A

Comparing CoX and Champions Online with WoW is akin to comparing apples and oranges. In Champions you play the role of a superhero, i.e. an individual gifted with super powers though X means. So technically you should be able to use ALL your superhero powers at the very beginning. Did Storm begin her superhero career conjuring tiny rainclouds? Was Superman only able to lift 2 tonnes, only to move on to 10, 20 after beating up 20 thugs?

On the other hand, WoW and many similar fantasy MMOs put you in the shoes of a budding adventurer. You start off as a measly peon, work your way into middle management and finally ascend to the pinnacle as a Warboss leading his own WAAAAGH!.
 

pdgeorge

New member
Dec 25, 2008
244
0
0
How can anyone ***** about people 'not having to work for their game'?

I mean, the majority of people who say that from experience are privilidged little shit kids who have their parents paying for their subscription. Instead of feeling like they earned the game by I dunno... PAYING FOR IT THEMSELVES alot of them take up the mindset that 'working' in WoW counts as 'work' to 'earn' their game. Even when they grow up and get a job, the idea was originally birthed and thus continues (sometimes).

Why shouldn't I have to work to play my game? Because I already DID work, trying to get the bloody money for the game in the first place!
 

PiCroft

He who waits behind the wall
Mar 12, 2009
224
0
0
They are now trying to cram MMO aspects into games that never used to have them - Cities XL is an example. And to be honest, they turned a city-builder - a genre I love - into a lacklustre plate-spinning exercise with the ability to trade commodities on a player-run market.

I am not encouraged by the trend to cater to this need to compete in everything.
 

Da Ork

New member
Nov 19, 2008
38
0
0
I'm sure this has been said somewhere in here already but I've been up since about 2am so I'm feeling a bit slack to read all the comments. Blizzard are working on a lot of the earlier contest with the next expansion. Basically because they have figured a lot of ways to make quests more awesome than when they first launched wow and less grindy. Azeroth is gonna get a complete rework.
 

TheFacelessOne

New member
Feb 13, 2009
2,350
0
0
I agree. I couldn't get into WoW at all. I only managed to crawl to level 8 before I wanted to place my keyboard into the mouth of a kobold and drown my paladin.
 

The Atomic Irishman

New member
Oct 11, 2009
129
0
0
Doug said:
Hmm, to be honest, the problem I had with City of Heroes is the fact that the endgame was dull as hell, from what everyone was telling me; when your looking forward to see what you'll be able to do as a max-level character, its extremely dispiriting to hear where-ever you go "OMG, Lvl 50 is so dull" and "XP Farming mission lfp" - and the mission editor thing didn't really help all that much.

I think the idea of removing the grind from the early game is a good idea; don't get me wrong, I agree with that. But developers DO need to make the "endgame" fun too. Hence why I'm giving Eve online a trial; it might be abit of a grind to get up to the top, but when I do, I'll have an evoluting, player driven world to deal with. I hope.
There is no XP grind, and the endgame starts whenever you wish. Eve places you in a world where you're on your own after the tutorial. And god help you if you skipped it. EvE content is neither handed to nor withheld from you. You may access the world at anytime. To clarify, once you start using cruisers and above, you're involvement in the game can become worthwhile and rewarding. Join corporations and getting involved in Low security PvP wars add to this fun. EvE sags when it comes to high security systems and coproration wars. Where its an ongoing game of duck hunt.

Anyways, EvE is a troublesome game for the uninitiated. And its even more of a frustration for old school MMO-goers. As I stated above, endgame begins whenever you want it to.

EDIT: This is why EvE is alluring to so few. It gives vast power to the players in game. You have been warned...
 

Doug

New member
Apr 23, 2008
5,205
0
0
The Atomic Irishman said:
Doug said:
Hmm, to be honest, the problem I had with City of Heroes is the fact that the endgame was dull as hell, from what everyone was telling me; when your looking forward to see what you'll be able to do as a max-level character, its extremely dispiriting to hear where-ever you go "OMG, Lvl 50 is so dull" and "XP Farming mission lfp" - and the mission editor thing didn't really help all that much.

I think the idea of removing the grind from the early game is a good idea; don't get me wrong, I agree with that. But developers DO need to make the "endgame" fun too. Hence why I'm giving Eve online a trial; it might be abit of a grind to get up to the top, but when I do, I'll have an evoluting, player driven world to deal with. I hope.
There is no XP grind, and the endgame starts whenever you wish. Eve places you in a world where you're on your own after the tutorial.
No, no XP grind... BUT it does had money grind instead.

Anywho, I ended up sticking with Eve so far, heh.
 

teisjm

New member
Mar 3, 2009
3,561
0
0
When did stuff that isn't end-game raids become non-content?
Does new area only count if they're high level raids?

In WoW, which i played till around level 65 in TBC i think, you have plenty of areas to explore, theres tons of quests, theres dungeons, theres new skilsl and items all while leveling.

Heck, i found the game a lot more enjoyable before i turned 60 (vanilla wow) and everything just turned into farming for items.

When leveling, especially when you're sortof new to the game, the whole athmospphere and deep game world was awesome. There was improvement everywhere, new items, new levels, new zones, tons of new quests, new skills.
When you reached max level ther ewas a new instance every 3 months or so, which you had to farm repeatedly to get the gear that was worth anything to you, there was no new areas to explore, no new skills.
And the actual instances wasn't very satisfying for me, since the whole athmosphere was gone when you we're farming the same place for teh x'th time, killing the same bosses. There was just the combat, which IMO is pretty lame. It's not really challenging you, only the gear you've got.
A trained monkey could prolly code bots that could do the raids as well as the skilled players, and it's not that weird, as an RPG, the combat is mostly stat based, and about strategy, which can be exciting if it wasn't for teh fact that you shouldn't discover (unles syou we're amongst the first guild in teh world to kill the boss) it, but read it on a web-page and just follow the instructions (which we're often spam your 3-4-5 skills to get the most efficient DPS) which is soemthing a, you guessed it, trained monkey could do.
I've seen my brother play WotLK, and while they've done something more than just ye average tank and spank + a single gimmicky thing with some of the boss battles, it's still not requiering very much from the players side, apart form having farmed good enough gear to win the battle.

So with WoW, i figured out MMORPG's (at least teh ones that work like WoW) doesn't interrest me, cause the end-game lacks most of the cool things about RPG (story, athmosphere, discovery), and has very little but repetitive combat made even less interresting by the fact that:
it's required of you to know the combat beforehand, it's like playign a game follwoign a walkthrough (which i can't stand)
You're one out of (now) 25 people, which means you're role is kinda small, so you're just spamming through your dps cycle, which challenges the player less than playign guitar hero on very easy. As opposed to, say, BG2 where you controll the entire party, you have to figure out the combat, and you're never grinding the same combat (you play it unfully several times if you die ofc)

If i wanted to play a game fully centred aroudn combat, i would go for a genre in which it's a very strong part of the game, fighters, action-games/hack'nslashers(or whatever games like ninaj gaiden is called), FPS, RTS etc. Not a génre where combat is usually not the main focus.