Give Me Dessert First

[Chirez]

City of Heroes and World of Warcraft were both released in 2004, but CoH was indeed earlier. Champions ofc is new.

I do thoroughly disagree with that analysis of WoW, perhaps I'm a fanboy, who knows?
The population is certainly concentrated in the higher levels, that's more or less what happens when people play the same character for four years. The reason there are so many new characters in CoH, I submit, is that people have no interest in playing their old ones. If you want to find people when you first log in, try running to the nearest city. All the old school hang out in Ironforge, at least on my server.

I played CoH for a while, made a couple of characters, and while it was vaguely amusing the world seemed extremely two dimensional. Appropriate for a comic based game perhaps but not anywhere I'd like to spend any amount of time. I agree heartily with silver scribbler up there, that if you play through WoW paying attention to the world around you rather than focussing on all that you're missing at the level cap it is an extremely rewarding experience. The fun is deeper, it's enjoyment more than amusement.

To extend your own metaphor I invite you to consider what happens when you eat nothing but cake. Your mother told you to eat your greens, she knew what was good for you.

 

[baconfist]

The largest problem with giving you too much stuff up front without working for it is that, at some point they run out of neat stuff for you and you walk away.

Let me ask all of you a few questions. Have you ever played a game for hours and hours to get some item? Have you gone online found cheats and gave yourself every item? and most importantly how long did you continue to play once you had given yourself every item?

If you are anything like me it was no more then a day, so while it may be frustrating doing the "grind", if an MMO wants to keep people playing they have to always have a new carrot dangling just out of reach. Making you work for your fun is necessary, but a good game should let you have fun doing the work.

 

[Ryuk2]

This is a argument I got into with my friend one day about WoW. I told him I hated games that made you 'work' for fun. I want to play games for entertainment and challenge, not because it's my second job. Maybe thats why I don't play MMO's anymore...

Leveling up and 'getting to the fun' stuff is a challenge too. Every game is a work, in other games you HAVE TO kill other people, others make you drive the lap faster. It's just a matter of what means fun to you. Some people have fun shooting people in the face and teabaging them, others have fun reading a book and others (like me) like earning gold by doing quests and selling items.

 

[Fearzone]

/signed

BUT, the best two questing areas, IMHO, in Champions are after level 30. Kudos to Cryptic for barely even suggesting a sea monkey kingdom awaits us until we find ourselves inside it.

 

[Eleuthera]

I've always been a bad MMO player. I love levelling new characters/alts, but as soon as I reach cap I quit playing that Char for a while, sure I might go back to do some more dungeons or quests, but the real grind (for me) is doing the same raid instance again and again. Getting from lvl 33 to 34 feels like an achievement, downing one more boss after weeks of trying feels like I've been wasting my time.

Admittedly I only ever played WoW, and I was part of my guilds raidgroup for a few months during TBC. It always felt like a chore, "I have to come and raid because the guild needs me". All the while I'd rather been levelling my "new" lvl20 frostmage or whatever.

Part of this might also be the fact that "guild drama" starts at end game as well.

 

[Chrissyluky]

you know i think i agree with you shamus i really like the superhero mmos more its just. the fantasy genre is SO overdone and frankly im a bit burnt out on it. i just wish these superhero games had more sandbox pvp.

 

[pneuma08]

I do thoroughly disagree with that analysis of WoW, perhaps I'm a fanboy, who knows?
The population is certainly concentrated in the higher levels, that's more or less what happens when people play the same character for four years. The reason there are so many new characters in CoH, I submit, is that people have no interest in playing their old ones. If you want to find people when you first log in, try running to the nearest city. All the old school hang out in Ironforge, at least on my server.

From what I understand, there's several factors at work here.

Firstly, in WoW and games like it, people are either starting fresh, leveling up, or at the cap. People are most likely to be at the cap (with starting just behind). This is due to the fact that if you enjoy playing WoW, you're going to find yourself at the cap sooner or later More importantly, if you don't like WoW, well, you're either starting and don't know it yet or you quit somewhere in the leveling up stage. Furthermore, there's a lot more incentive to stick around with your old chars than make a new one, as is clear. As pointed out, this isn't true in CoH (and as has been pointed out, it's reversed).

So then were are all the people who are just starting out? Well, a fun fact about WoW (at least from what I can recall) is that you really don't have to do the starting quests. You know, the ones where you have to kill 20 bunnies for some guy. In fact, the starting areas ONLY have starting level content, so a couple levels in and you don't ever go back. That's why there's so very few people around the starting areas. But if you go to the starting city, that's where everyone hangs out, like in CoH. Furthermore, the night elf area is a lot less popular than every other city/continent, and really adds to this problem (and thus Shamus's experience is not a very good yardstick).

Finally with regards to WoW and CoH, endgame content is what keeps people playing the game. Sure, people play around with alts and trying out various other classes, but the reason why a lot of people keep coming back to WoW is the content after the level cap. This makes sense, because after you do hit the cap, either you eventually run out of things to do, or the game changes into something different and self-sustainable (like TF2 or multiplayer shooters). Lack of endgame content for CoH is not a good thing, because that just means that sooner or later people are going to get bored of the game.

As for people griping about more easily accessed content, while I don't agree with the viewpoint, I can certainly understand it. It's like, if you took a long week to climb a mountain and then someone builds a lift that lets people take pictures at the summit in the morning and be back in time for lunch, it belittles your achievement. Furthermore, if the lift is now the only way up the mountain, then no one else will be able to share in your experience. And MMOs, IMO, are all about achievements and building yourself up.

But all in all, I do agree that having more content with less filler is a good thing, as is getting to the good parts more quickly.

 

[Gilgamesh00]

It's good that there are different kinds of MMOs for peoples' different preferences. There are people who enjoy leveling up a character in WoW. I mean I always considered it an achievement to get your character to the maximum level. You always get that satisfaction when you're high level that you worked for it. At least for me, it's fun.

I never played CoH and missed the beta for Champions Online. Waiting for a trial, but I also think that the Superhero theme of those games is a factor of how fast your progress. Of course that when you're a superhero, you're supposed to have bad ass powers from the start, not leveling them, where in the WoW fantasy theme, you're a a warrior/mage/rogue etc. who trains to become a greater warrior/mage/rogue etc.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

This is a really interesting discussion to me. I'm a big retro gamer (especially SNES RPGs), but I've found that modern-day games are immediately more fun, and that I think it's a terrific change of pace. Crackdown is a good example; you've got super strength right off the bat and it's instantly fun.

True, I think alot of old time gamers do ignore that. I will admit that even I've rolled my eyes over this I think the problem is that alot of new games with faster access at the same time dumb down the games (COUGH-Deus Ex 2-COUGH), and so the knee jerk reactions of older gamers is to end up seeing faster access to 'the fun bits' as being a sign of dumbing down.

Of course, a game can manage fine without jumping straight to 'da fun', if its done right.

Now, I haven't played the original Deus Ex. Maybe it is so amazing and impossibly good that all other games pale in comparison. Maybe it's able to cure Cancer. I don't know. But I did beat Deus Ex 2 recently, and I loved it. I guess you must be talking about the gameplay when you say "dumbing down," because the story is probably one of the most complex in gaming history. Every single thing you do has consequences, even doing nothing. You can kill pretty much anyone you ever meet. You can save the world or destroy it. What's even better is that every decision you make is in a moral gray area. There is no "right" choice. The sheer ambition of the narrative is astounding, with the sort of political and societal issues it tackles. I was feeling genuinely guilty for many of my decisions throughout the game.

If THAT is dumbing down a game, I'd like to see more game retardation, please.

Or maybe you meant it's more of a Chrono Trigger -> Chrono Cross case, where the sequel is good but rather lacking in comparison to the original masterwork.

 

[Doug]

This is a really interesting discussion to me. I'm a big retro gamer (especially SNES RPGs), but I've found that modern-day games are immediately more fun, and that I think it's a terrific change of pace. Crackdown is a good example; you've got super strength right off the bat and it's instantly fun.

True, I think alot of old time gamers do ignore that. I will admit that even I've rolled my eyes over this I think the problem is that alot of new games with faster access at the same time dumb down the games (COUGH-Deus Ex 2-COUGH), and so the knee jerk reactions of older gamers is to end up seeing faster access to 'the fun bits' as being a sign of dumbing down.

Of course, a game can manage fine without jumping straight to 'da fun', if its done right.

Now, I haven't played the original Deus Ex. Maybe it is so amazing and impossibly good that all other games pale in comparison. Maybe it's able to cure Cancer. I don't know. But I did beat Deus Ex 2 recently, and I loved it. I guess you must be talking about the gameplay when you say "dumbing down," because the story is probably one of the most complex in gaming history. Every single thing you do has consequences, even doing nothing. You can kill pretty much anyone you ever meet. You can save the world or destroy it. What's even better is that every decision you make is in a moral gray area. There is no "right" choice. The sheer ambition of the narrative is astounding, with the sort of political and societal issues it tackles. I was feeling genuinely guilty for many of my decisions throughout the game.

If THAT is dumbing down a game, I'd like to see more game retardation, please.

Or maybe you meant it's more of a Chrono Trigger -> Chrono Cross case, where the sequel is good but rather lacking in comparison to the original masterwork.

Play Deus Ex 1 before commenting; if you thought the plot from Deus Ex 2 was good, you'll be blown away by Deus Ex 1; its got global conspiracies, ancient families, and corporate greed; I would go into more deepth, but it'd spoiler it for you. As for the freedom of choices in Deus Ex 2, well, lets just say there are parts of Deus Ex 1 I didn't even know I had a choice until I saw on YouTube a video showing a third option for solving what I'd thought was an on-off problem; and yet, the developers had thought about it and made the game react. Specifically...

Spoiler

You can kill Anna Navarre early and save Lebedev! Rather than what I'd assume; either killing him yourself or Anna doing it regardless.

edit: Agmonst other choices, obvious and not obvious, of course.

Edit 2: And don't get me wrong, I liked Deus Ex 2 as well, but it was like going out with the prettier but dumber sister of an ex.

Edit 3: This thread had me idly routing around YouTube, and I found an interesting video from one of the creators of Deus Ex 2 that I thought was interesting - though I think he's being abit hard on himself.

 

[Zand88]

The problem is, if you want to talk to other people, don't play Nightelf. Their starting land has no one in it.

 

[Grampy_bone]

I think it's funny that WoW is now considered "too grindy" since when it came out it had a much faster level progression than its contemporaries (or so I've been told). I played it for the free trial and got bored in a few days around level 15 or so. To me, all MMOs make you work way too hard for too little reward, compared to single player games with much richer and more satisfying content (if less total playtime).

 

[Dhatz]

I hate MMOGS because it's work to play them, not fun. fun is ginormo sword because it doesn't require you to be some level, nor it has human players,nor graphics,nor sounds. you just want to kill the creatures and bosses and (10th screen object spoiler)

Spoiler

fill the library

. this game has an end and no story, but it's great because you just want to play it (when you need to grind it becomes: watch movies while playing it). When you are done you say: That was great, another superb game finished!

 

[cobra_ky]

Fascinating that the starting areas in WoW are deserted now. i started playing a few months after release, and i remember starting zones so crowded that the respawn rates couldn't keep up with all the new players killing quest mobs. that's why the mobs in the starting zones literally travel in mobs, they actually needed that many in the zone so people could progress through the game. (admittedly this is harder to see in the night elf area because of all the trees. Roll a human and it's blatantly obvious.)

iguess my point is that MMOs are mutable experiences, and i saw vast changes in how the game played even while i was playing it. From what i've heard, Blizzard is making an effort to shift the content more toward the front-end, and it will be interesting to see what they end up with.

 

[Aardvark Soup]

I've never liked MMO's exactly for the reasons mentioned here. So I completely agree and also applaud what the new 'superhero' MMORPG's are doing. Who knows, maybe in the far future there will once be an MMO that can even get me hooked...

 

[toapat]

this post comes back to my overarching points about WoW:
dont take it seriously
if you aim to hit the max level, take your damned time and do what you want
find someone who you like to talk to
do some research on the classes to see if they seem interesting to you
only force yourself to do something excessively if you need what it gives. (god damned deadmines and its inability to let my rogue ever get a cruel barb)

only PvP if you need the Warsong Gulch trinkets

 

[theultimateend]

So what is the definition of grinding now? I noticed you said you got to 30 without grinding once. I'm trying to imagine how you managed that. Not to say you didn't I just apparently misinterpreted the term .

this post comes back to my overarching points about WoW:
dont take it seriously
if you aim to hit the max level, take your damned time and do what you want
find someone who you like to talk to
do some research on the classes to see if they seem interesting to you
only force yourself to do something excessively if you need what it gives. (god damned deadmines and its inability to let my rogue ever get a cruel barb)

only PvP if you need the Warsong Gulch trinkets

My love of WoW jumped 1 million fold once I moved off of Tichondrius (PVP server). Your points are fantastic .

The thing I find odd about it is I got to 80 in far less than a month of very very light play. I'm not sure what game so many folks were playing. All it took was one request to join a guild that belonged to a guy in a party for Dead mines and I was flying up in levels like someone was printing out level tokens for me or something.

But to each their own. I'm just sorely interested in this 'wow' that so many people banter on about that apparently requires your entire devoted life to enjoy .

 

[Doug]

I've never liked MMO's exactly for the reasons mentioned here. So I completely agree and also applaud what the new 'superhero' MMORPG's are doing. Who knows, maybe in the far future there will once be an MMO that can even get me hooked...

Indeed - I would love to see a level-less MMO, where everyone can take part in the good stuff straight away; about the only one that springs to mind at the moment is WW2 online.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

This is a really interesting discussion to me. I'm a big retro gamer (especially SNES RPGs), but I've found that modern-day games are immediately more fun, and that I think it's a terrific change of pace. Crackdown is a good example; you've got super strength right off the bat and it's instantly fun.

True, I think alot of old time gamers do ignore that. I will admit that even I've rolled my eyes over this I think the problem is that alot of new games with faster access at the same time dumb down the games (COUGH-Deus Ex 2-COUGH), and so the knee jerk reactions of older gamers is to end up seeing faster access to 'the fun bits' as being a sign of dumbing down.

Of course, a game can manage fine without jumping straight to 'da fun', if its done right.

Now, I haven't played the original Deus Ex. Maybe it is so amazing and impossibly good that all other games pale in comparison. Maybe it's able to cure Cancer. I don't know. But I did beat Deus Ex 2 recently, and I loved it. I guess you must be talking about the gameplay when you say "dumbing down," because the story is probably one of the most complex in gaming history. Every single thing you do has consequences, even doing nothing. You can kill pretty much anyone you ever meet. You can save the world or destroy it. What's even better is that every decision you make is in a moral gray area. There is no "right" choice. The sheer ambition of the narrative is astounding, with the sort of political and societal issues it tackles. I was feeling genuinely guilty for many of my decisions throughout the game.

If THAT is dumbing down a game, I'd like to see more game retardation, please.

Or maybe you meant it's more of a Chrono Trigger -> Chrono Cross case, where the sequel is good but rather lacking in comparison to the original masterwork.

Play Deus Ex 1 before commenting; if you thought the plot from Deus Ex 2 was good, you'll be blown away by Deus Ex 1; its got global conspiracies, ancient families, and corporate greed; I would go into more deepth, but it'd spoiler it for you. As for the freedom of choices in Deus Ex 2, well, lets just say there are parts of Deus Ex 1 I didn't even know I had a choice until I saw on YouTube a video showing a third option for solving what I'd thought was an on-off problem; and yet, the developers had thought about it and made the game react.

Edit 2: And don't get me wrong, I liked Deus Ex 2 as well, but it was like going out with the prettier but dumber sister of an ex.

Ah, I see. Well, guess I need to go find a version of Deus Ex to play. I suppose when you set the bar so high for yourself, anything even *slightly* less good is going to seem like absolute crap, even if it's not. I still really like Deus Ex 2, though. I just now know I have something even better to look forward to.