Good vs. Bad JRPG intros

[NerfedFalcon]

Every cases that involved criminal act would easily be solved in real world. If you were to call just about any journalist and say "The former Olympic athlete that coach our volleyball team is physically attacking his student, we can easily get video of that, and also sexually assaulted a female student who then attempted suicide, which you can verify easily" all you'd hear back would be a loud explosion has he'd cream his pants followed by "Pulitzer here I cum!!!!!!". The group in P5 is really the epitome of "we've tried nothing and are all out of idea".

If the idea was really to go after people that couldn't be touch the regular way, then they should have actually done that. Like people who were tried for something but then had their case dropped for unclear reason or because the prosecutor messed up badly, or maybe because they were pass the statue of limitation. But every case you go after would be like catnip to any journalist and the hardest thing would be to fight off the horde of journalist trying to interview you to get the info. Things could even have been setup so that instead of brain washing people, you'd go into their dreamland to steal information about their crime (which would be more in keeping with the thief motive) and then would use that info to make them suffer consequence in the real world.

Do you think that a journalist would find solid evidence of it? That they'd be able to run the story without getting beaten down by the school's lawyers for libel? Or that they would even care about accusations against Kamoshida, celebrated Olympic athlete, made by students with existing disciplinary and criminal records who just want attention and/or revenge? And that it would all happen in just two weeks before the expulsion came down and PC went back to jail?

More importantly, do you think that PC, Ryuji and Ann would think that, or would they be more likely to decide that the journalists are exactly like every other adult in their lives and that they can't be trusted or relied on out of hand? Because that's part of the game's entire message: "you can't solely rely on other people to solve your problems."

As for your idea of getting evidence in the mental world to use in the real world, that wouldn't work for the same reasons it didn't work that way in Persona 4.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Jrpss can be slow burns sometimes, but some of them just take it a bit too far. Kingdom Hearts 2 spends way too long to get going. Just hours of minigames and faffing about in Twilight Town before you even get your first proper battle. Xenoblade 2 has a similar problem, where it just takes forever until you get to the meat of the game.

On the other hand, I'm currently playing Triangle Strategy, which takes about 1,5 hours between the tutorial battle way at the beginning and your first real battle, all of it basically frontloaded conversations and worldbuilding, but it kind of works there.

Funny enough, the massive amount of nicely done dialogue and world building between battles is why I meshed with Triangle Strategy so much, not to mention the stellar soundtrack. I don't typically like tactics games, but a few outlier examples (Knights in the Nightmare being one) and Triangle Strategy showed me I do enjoy the genre, I just don't like a lot of the prime examples that come from it. Most notably Fire Emblem, which feels less like a medieval fantasy tactics game these days and more like a Japanese high school waifu drama simulator with a tactics system attached to it.

In P4 you're trying to stop a murderer that's using the paranormal power for his own twisted ends, in P5 you are the murder using the paranormal for no real reason other seemingly boredom. The case in P4 is unsolvable without using the paranormal power, which only your main characters have, in P5 the cases are all solvable in the real world (when there's even something to be solve) the main character just don't bother and immediately use their power without trying any alternative.

I really don't think you're giving P5 a fair think here. The cast and events made it pretty clear that a lot of the police force, or adults they could approach to help with the issues at hand, were either corrupt or didn't want to listen to what is essential hearsay from a bunch of teenagers (from a school that was branded as a bunch of punks and delinquents no less). Not to mention that if they tried to follow the system, then either it'd take way too long (and by then it'd be too late and the villains of each arc could cover their tracks) or the system would swallow them entirely. Everyone in the main cast has had some sort of troubling situation put upon them cause of the abusive and overall corrupt system they find themselves surrounded in. That's kinda the whole vibe of the game? Hell, the reason why the protagonist is even in his situation is cause a politician tried to sue him, and used his power to keep everyone else quiet or lie about what actually happened.

The reason why they're using their abilities is cause it's the only option they have left that they feel will actually get some results.

Also I typed this up before reading NerfedFalcon's responses to you and he gets deeper into the root of the cast's problems and why they went the route that they did way better than I would have. I know when you hate a game it's hard to look at it deeply without potentially resorting to "game's STOOPID" but that's kinda the vibe of what I'm getting is happening here. Whether it just didn't really sink in cause you weren't having fun or you don't care to look back at the game in a more in depth manner, NerfedFalcon had it all pretty spot on. The game's gone into detail about every part you're being critical of and explained why it went the way it did.

Also, aside from the first case, none of P5 case had any impact on me and I was just thinking "why the fuck are we bothering with this?!"

The first case was definitely the strongest I feel, or at least very close to the best one. It felt way more real than the others cause the stakes were smaller, the situation wasn't blown up so big and filled with so many twists, and definitely hit hard cause it felt like a very real issue that many could likely relate to on a personal level. Not that the other cases weren't real issues, but, this one felt a liiiiiiittle less fantastical with its circumstances

 

[Hawki]

Well, I can think two two JRPG openings;

First is Golden Sun. Within first 15 min or so, you are introduced to a world using powers called psynergy. I thought this was nice how well it fits into the world, and not just there for the sake of being JRPG. we also see dangers of its power, seeing how an entire town gets nearly destroyed and four people are presumed to be dead. After that, we began to learn more about fundamentals of the power with Kraden, further cementing in how the elemental powers fit into this world

Much as I love Golden Sun, I can't say I fully agree. Everything up to Isaac and Garet being knocked unconcious? Pretty neat. But everything up to the pair leaving Vale is comparatively sedate. It takes a very long time for the game to truly begin, if we take "true" as being the moment they leave town (and that gorgeous theme kicks in).

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Much as I love Golden Sun, I can't say I fully agree. Everything up to Isaac and Garet being knocked unconcious? Pretty neat. But everything up to the pair leaving Vale is comparatively sedate. It takes a very long time for the game to truly begin, if we take "true" as being the moment they leave town (and that gorgeous theme kicks in).

I tried maybe 3 times to get into Golden Sun but I just couldn't... I don't know why. The first time I didn't get through the first dungeon. The second time I did and got to the next town. The third time I got a teensy bit further than that but got stuck at some roadblock that I couldn't work out how to pass. (I distinctly remember it being around when you could see the little fire djinn hanging out on a cliff above you out of reach). Never went back to it after that.

Equally had the same issues with the DS sequel. I guess the series just isn't for me?

 

[meiam]

Do you think that a journalist would find solid evidence of it? That they'd be able to run the story without getting beaten down by the school's lawyers for libel? Or that they would even care about accusations against Kamoshida, celebrated Olympic athlete, made by students with existing disciplinary and criminal records who just want attention and/or revenge? And that it would all happen in just two weeks before the expulsion came down and PC went back to jail?

More importantly, do you think that PC, Ryuji and Ann would think that, or would they be more likely to decide that the journalists are exactly like every other adult in their lives and that they can't be trusted or relied on out of hand? Because that's part of the game's entire message: "you can't solely rely on other people to solve your problems."

As for your idea of getting evidence in the mental world to use in the real world, that wouldn't work for the same reasons it didn't work that way in Persona 4.

That's why you grab your cellphone (they had those back then) and you film it, the abuse happens in a big gymnasium, you crack open a door and film it. The milisecond a journalist gets their hand on it they'll publish it. Look, the reason why the arc works was because people love the fall from grace stuff, they love the idea that the big and celebrated person is actually a jerk. There's tons of case of ex Olympian being outed out as not particularly good people, and you'll noticed journalist aired those out, because that's literally what pays their salary and make their career. Why would the school lawyer do anything about that? How would they even know? They'd just wake up one morning with 17 missed message and would look on their news app and go "well fuck". And hell, even if that doesn't work by some miracle, just social media it (again they had those back then), you think parents are just going to sit by and ignore it?

So sure, maybe the PC wouldn't trust journalist and somehow are ignorant of the existence of social media, but they didn't even think of that, there's not ever a point where someone goes "wait, what else could we do?". They tried nothing and ran out of idea.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

That's why you grab your cellphone (they had those back then) and you film it, the abuse happens in a big gymnasium, you crack open a door and film it. The milisecond a journalist gets their hand on it they'll publish it. Look, the reason why the arc works was because people love the fall from grace stuff, they love the idea that the big and celebrated person is actually a jerk. There's tons of case of ex Olympian being outed out as not particularly good people, and you'll noticed journalist aired those out, because that's literally what pays their salary and make their career. Why would the school lawyer do anything about that? How would they even know? They'd just wake up one morning with 17 missed message and would look on their news app and go "well fuck". And hell, even if that doesn't work by some miracle, just social media it (again they had those back then), you think parents are just going to sit by and ignore it?

So sure, maybe the PC wouldn't trust journalist and somehow are ignorant of the existence of social media, but they didn't even think of that, there's not ever a point where someone goes "wait, what else could we do?". They tried nothing and ran out of idea.

I think you're missing another major theme of the game, besides 'take action for yourself': society is corrupt, at every level. People with power abuse it, and nobody can or will stop them. The system let everybody involved down, and the Phantom Thieves have good reasons not to trust it, and to take matters into their own hands themselves. That's what leads to the actual story, including the parts of it that you can actually play.

There's another, broader point to this as well, and that's that the earlier in a story you are, the more contrivance you can get away with to start it off. Let me use a film as an example. Do you think Terminator 2 would be as good of a movie if the T-850, while randomly driving around Los Angeles, didn't happen to spot John Connor in the LA River and follow him to the mall, where the T-1000 would therefore have just killed John without opposition? By the same token, would Persona 5 have created a new zeitgeist if it was a game about taking your phone out, filming an amateur video, and immediately being believed without question by a supposedly-corrupt society, and then waiting a few weeks until you come across another scandal, while setting up the existence of a supernatural element that is then not used at all?

And even if they went with the 'film the abuse' route, that only works up until you reach Kaneshiro. Would that work on a yakuza waving a gun in your face, physically and metaphorically? In the cases after that, would it work to bring a depressed and suicidal young girl back from the brink? Heck, even before that, would it work with Madarame's emotional abuse, where almost nothing you can film as explicit evidence is going on? Or would they have to fall back on the supernatural system that the story set up and then forgot about until it was convenient to remember it, rather than building the whole story around it like any normal storyteller would?

In my opinion, rather than analyzing the game's story as it is, you're grasping at straws to criticize it for aspects that are ultimately irrelevant. To get back on the thread's topic, the start of the game sets up the rest of the game, and I'd argue that it succeeds at doing so the way that it is, without needing to be 'more realistic' or 'smarter' about it for a short-term gain with a long-term detriment.

 

[Catfood220]

you think parents are just going to sit by and ignore it?

Actually there is a line of dialog that says that both the school and parents are aware of the abuse going on but they let it slide because the prestige that having a Olympic athlete coach the team to glory is worth a few bruises, broken bones and even the odd sexually assaulted student.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Actually there is a line of dialog that says that both the school and parents are aware of the abuse going on but they let it slide because the prestige that having a Olympic athlete coach the team to glory is worth a few bruises, broken bones and even the odd sexually assaulted student.

As I said, society is corrupt at every level. And it's that corruption that they're fighting by going to the Metaverse repeatedly. The public changes of heart force everyone else to confront the fact that they knew that person was awful, but didn't say anything because they were corrupt or apathetic as well.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Anyway, to prevent this from turning into a Persona 5 thread, I'm going to try talking about something else.

Let me preface this by saying that I like Final Fantasy 13. I think the characters go through interesting arcs and the gameplay has a lot more going on than just 'line 'em up and let the AI knock 'em down'. However, the game is not very good at explaining itself, and that's most apparent in the early part of the story. A lot of stuff happens seemingly without any reason for it, and the characters never bother to explain because they know what's going on even if the audience doesn't. Then they pull back hard on the action to try and develop the characters, but the world still doesn't really make sense unless you've been reading all the in-game codex entries (which maybe go into a little too much detail) or you've had it explained to you outside the game entirely. It wasn't until Chapter 7 (in Palumpolum) that I started to really get into it, and I totally understand that very few people were/are willing to give it that many chances.

 

[Jarrito3002]

This is my example of good intro. Its just effective. Be me pop in your PS2 you loved Dark Cloud 1 and your hyped for two you see this opening and your enthralled. The music start off slow to set up the scene and as all of these random scenes pop up and music gets faster you just want to find out how the hell all this stuff fits in the plot and how it all ties to together. Simple and effective and now I am stoked to play your game.

 

[Chimpzy]

I just realized about about 90 min into the game before I stopped which means I'm probably right about where the battle happens. Is it the tournament they keep going on about?

Yeah, that's the one. After the tourney you start getting battles more regularly and you unlock the encampment where you can do practice battles whenever you want, so the story/gameplay equation balances out. Tho it's still another 5-6 hours after that before the plot truly kicks off and some setups begin to pay off.

 

[Catfood220]

I would say Skies of Arcadia has a pretty good intro. It starts with the Evil Empire being evil and kidnapping a strange girl and then Vyse, Aika and the rest of his band of air pirates decide to raid the enemy ship in an opportunistic attempt to steal their stuff. It tells you everything you need to know in a matter of minutes, these are the bad guys, these are the good guys and this girl is important. And then the story unfolds from there on out.

I wish I could play this game again. It really needs a re-release.

 

[Dreiko]

Anyway, to prevent this from turning into a Persona 5 thread, I'm going to try talking about something else.

Let me preface this by saying that I like Final Fantasy 13. I think the characters go through interesting arcs and the gameplay has a lot more going on than just 'line 'em up and let the AI knock 'em down'. However, the game is not very good at explaining itself, and that's most apparent in the early part of the story. A lot of stuff happens seemingly without any reason for it, and the characters never bother to explain because they know what's going on even if the audience doesn't. Then they pull back hard on the action to try and develop the characters, but the world still doesn't really make sense unless you've been reading all the in-game codex entries (which maybe go into a little too much detail) or you've had it explained to you outside the game entirely. It wasn't until Chapter 7 (in Palumpolum) that I started to really get into it, and I totally understand that very few people were/are willing to give it that many chances.

Actually, all the explanation is found in the prequel books that SE released periodically on their Japanese webside which introduce you to the characters to build up hype for the game, their personality and motivations, and most important of all, Sera. If you don't know her and why she is so important to everyone in the game then you will not get the story at all. She is the protagonist in those books.


And while I question the logic in not officially translating those books in English in tandem, I did find a fantranslation that came out not too long after the JP release, way before the game was out, so reading that helped me enjoy XIII a ton.

 

[thebobmaster]

Actually, all the explanation is found in the prequel books that SE released periodically on their Japanese webside which introduce you to the characters to build up hype for the game, their personality and motivations, and most important of all, Sera. If you don't know her and why she is so important to everyone in the game then you will not get the story at all. She is the protagonist in those books.


And while I question the logic in not officially translating those books in English in tandem, I did find a fantranslation that came out not too long after the JP release, way before the game was out, so reading that helped me enjoy XIII a ton.

I have a problem with the idea that it is acceptable to explain character motivations and importance cross-media. I shouldn't feel left out of the story, or wonder why Sera is so important because I dared to only play the game. Extra material should be used for world-building for those who want more of it, not required reading to understand what the game couldn't be bothered to show.

 

[Dalisclock]

I have a problem with the idea that it is acceptable to explain character motivations and importance cross-media. I shouldn't feel left out of the story, or wonder why Sera is so important because I dared to only play the game. Extra material should be used for world-building for those who want more of it, not required reading to understand what the game couldn't be bothered to show.

especially since a lot of the worldbuilding itself is expressed in Codexs apparently.

Let's not forget the massive problem FFXV had with pretty much having the game, the movie and the anime needed to know what the fuck was really going on and having DLC to fill in character stories after the fact.

I'm not just picking on SE for this, Bioware/Ubisoft did a lot of this as well and I hate it there too.

 

[BrawlMan]

Actually, all the explanation is found in the prequel books that SE released periodically on their Japanese webside which introduce you to the characters to build up hype for the game, their personality and motivations, and most important of all, Sera. If you don't know her and why she is so important to everyone in the game then you will not get the story at all. She is the protagonist in those books.


And while I question the logic in not officially translating those books in English in tandem, I did find a fantranslation that came out not too long after the JP release, way before the game was out, so reading that helped me enjoy XIII a ton.

A crappy way of storytelling and character info dump is still a crappy of storytelling and character info dump. If I have to look up a whole bunch of different websites and encyclopedia to know what's going on with your characters, their motivations, or plot ,then you failed as a writer and storyteller. I will hear no excuses of it. The same problems with FF13 happened with FF15.

especially since a lot of the worldbuilding itself is expressed in Codexs apparently.

Let's not forget the massive problem FFXV had with pretty much having the game, the movie and the anime needed to know what the fuck was really going on and having DLC to fill in character stories after the fact.

I'm not just picking on SE for this, Bioware/Ubisoft did a lot of this as well and I hate it there too.

Thank you.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Actually, all the explanation is found in the prequel books that SE released periodically on their Japanese webside which introduce you to the characters to build up hype for the game, their personality and motivations, and most important of all, Sera.

but the world still doesn't really make sense unless you've been reading all the in-game codex entries (which maybe go into a little too much detail) or you've had it explained to you outside the game entirely.

Thank you for proving my point. As I said, I actually like the game, but I also had a lot of it explained to me outside the game itself, and I fully acknowledge that that shouldn't have been necessary.

To balance that out, here's a slightly belated good example in my opinion: Tales of Berseria. At first glance, the game's first chapter, showing Velvet's ordinary village life being rudely interrupted by an invasion of demons, is fairly cliche and not a lot of it's important, but I think that the pacing is fine, as her relationships to Laphicet and Arthur are important enough to detail before they're also destroyed. It also makes a point that's important for the rest of the game: Velvet wasn't always an edgelord. It was due to her brother being killed by her 'father' in front of her, and her turning into a demon herself at the same time, that she became so angry and edgy. Without that, it would be a lot harder to root for her early on before she started having more party members to play off of and develop alongside.

 

[Dreiko]

A crappy way of storytelling and character info dump is still a crappy of storytelling and character infidel. If I have to look up a whole bunch of different websites and encyclopedia to know what's going on with your characters, their motivations, or plot then you failed as a writer and storyteller. I will hear no excuses of it. The same problems with FF13 happened with FF15.

It's not info dump, it's just...books. You know, reading. It's not like the codex in mass effect that has encyclopedic exposition, it's just a story taking place in the same universe with some of the same chars. Hope's mom is in it too, one of the short stories is about her, so her death hits super hard.


XV's problems were very different, part of it was just that the game released unfinished and had dlc keep coming out for years to finish telling the story, part of it was that it felt more like a FF fangame where someone who wants to pay homage to the franchise is at the helm, instead of a coequal member of the FF game library. If they had named it something else people would be more positive towards it I think.


The fact that you had a couple of anime and cg movies come out was not that big of a deal since the game's story was just flimsy as all hell anyways so you didn't lose anything by not grasping every detail. It just was very hollow on impactful moments, outside of my bro going blind I don't remember much from the game.

I have a problem with the idea that it is acceptable to explain character motivations and importance cross-media. I shouldn't feel left out of the story, or wonder why Sera is so important because I dared to only play the game. Extra material should be used for world-building for those who want more of it, not required reading to understand what the game couldn't be bothered to show.

I really don't think that placing rules on such things makes sense.


Ultimately, you have to judge it on whether it is a good experience or not. The standard has to be "if you read the books first and then play the game, do you enjoy yourself?". If the answer is "yes", then it's a good choice.

To fundamentally dismiss it just because you happened to not be aware of it so you missed out makes no sense and would limit future experiences that could also be fun from being fun.



It's not really "extra" material, it's just material. Hell, it came out before the game did, so if anything the game is an extra addon to the book universe if you wanna be pedantic. Tons of games and anime and so on have media-mix storytelling where you have the main thing in one format and then a spinoff with one of the chars in a different format, and then the game gets its own extra thing too like Android 21 for DBFZ.

Thank you for proving my point. As I said, I actually like the game, but I also had a lot of it explained to me outside the game itself, and I fully acknowledge that that shouldn't have been necessary.

To balance that out, here's a slightly belated good example in my opinion: Tales of Berseria. At first glance, the game's first chapter, showing Velvet's ordinary village life being rudely interrupted by an invasion of demons, is fairly cliche and not a lot of it's important, but I think that the pacing is fine, as her relationships to Laphicet and Arthur are important enough to detail before they're also destroyed. It also makes a point that's important for the rest of the game: Velvet wasn't always an edgelord. It was due to her brother being killed by her 'father' in front of her, and her turning into a demon herself at the same time, that she became so angry and edgy. Without that, it would be a lot harder to root for her early on before she started having more party members to play off of and develop alongside.

I don't think it's necessary at all either, don't get me wrong, but if it ends up being a good experience that I loved (made me tear up a bunch of times too) I'm not about to criticize it. Unnecessary doesn't equal flawed.


And Velvet's thing is something that you'd see in a flashback more so than a side story, I think a better example is the Laguna bit in FFVIII where you just play a bunch of random other chars out of nowhere for a bit. That's kinda how the books felt, kinda disjointed but as you played the game you saw more and more links existing.

 

[BrawlMan]

It's not info dump, it's just...books. You know, reading. It's not like the codex in mass effect that has encyclopedic exposition, it's just a story taking place in the same universe with some of the same chars. Hope's mom is in it too, one of the short stories is about her, so her death hits super hard.

Nope. Shitty way of telling a story and glorified info dump only available to those that bothered or happened to live in Japan at the time. Also, I could not give a shit about Hope's mom or any of the characters in FFXIII. Maybe, if all of those events happened in game, instead of a bunch of books that were region locked at the time. Even if they weren't or translated now, the same issue still applies. Good day and learn some actual good storytelling. Don't bother responding, I won't be listening.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

I was not expecting any of this to happen when I brought up Final Fantasy 13. To close my thoughts on it, in general, I believe that a work should be able to stand on its own for people with no prior knowledge, even in the case of things like sequels to existing works. Not that you can't get more out of it with more knowledge, but someone with no knowledge should be able to get into it and enjoy it, and that just isn't the case with 13, ignoring everything that isn't on the disc such as Ultimania, the short stories, or a streamer/LPer who knows what's up explaining everything as he goes.

Which is even worse in 13's case, because other than being a numbered Final Fantasy game, it isn't really a sequel to anything. And while it definitely gets better the further you get into it, returning to the thread's topic, it starts on the wrong foot and keeps going that way for about a third of the runtime before it gets good.

Gonna try not to get involved in any more posts about it on this thread.