good vs. Evil decisions suck!!!!

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josh797

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Nov 20, 2007
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now this is a bit of a rage, but i think its warranted. I want to say right here and now that good vs bad decisions suck ass!!! game devs put them in because they make a good bullet point and people think that they need a bit of tweeking and they will work. well im here to say, they dont, they will never work, and they only hurt your game.

Good vs bad, and any other multiple storyline type dealies, hurt the game because they force the player to miss content in your game. if i have to chose between two different jedi power sets, then i miss out on the fun of using the other set of powers. this is detrimental to your game, and means that i may not enjoy it as much. it might encourage multiple playthroughs, but why should i have to play your game 3 or 4 times just to get different content? its stupid to make the player sacrifice parts of the game, arbitrarily.

secondly, it dilutes the storyline. because you have to make two storys, each one is only half as good, because it has half the effort put in. the end result is that i play a game that is only half as good as it could be, while the other storyline languishes on the disk, doing nothing but making it take longer to read. each storyline has to mesh with other key facts, so it wont be as potent, and it often ends up being bland. untill the end where they finally diverge in the final cutscene and become radically different, trying to cram all that story into one scene. this is often jolting and poorly story structure. simply put, 2 times the storylines equals 2 stories that are half as good.

the counter argument is that good vs evil/ choose your path gameplay makes it more like real life, supposedly it means games are evolving. THIS IS STUPID! are you gonna help cure world hunger? or are you going to murder the entire population of Western Europe. hummmm i dont know. im pointing out the black and whiteness of the choices that are in these games. binary choices dont simulate life, and you certainly cant try out choices in real life and reload the game to choose the other one when the current choice sucks dick. computers cant simulate choices well anyway. thats why it has always been and will always be a or b. computers are binary they dont like variability. so simple organic choices that we make ever day in our lives can never exist in games. besides, do we want real life? do you want a game where your choices are real, final and everlasting? Escapism; why most of us game. we dont want real life, people dont take one bullet and go down because thats not fun, learning to fly a ship takes years, but we do it in games in seconds because we want to escape.

finally, good vs evil/alternate storylines will never work. give it up game devs, no one likes em. they force me to lose out on your handcrafted content, they dont work like they should, they will never work like they should, and no one wants them to work like they should.
 

Kollega

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Jun 5, 2009
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This rant actually makes sense - moral dilemmas can easily disrupt consistency of narrative. I think they should be reserved for RPGs and variations thereof - where you are actually expected to make descisions.
 

josh797

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delta4062 said:
josh797 said:
delta4062 said:
Also, BLOG IT.
what do you mean? also i know of no game that does good vs evil well. can your provide examples?
KOTOR 1 and 2, Persona 3 and 4 and many other RPGs.Also you clearly dont know what a captial letter is either.
yeah, i know, its late. give me a break. also what about those games made the alternate storylines good? why is it done well in your opinion? also what did you mean by "BLOG IT"?
 

The Rockerfly

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Dec 31, 2008
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Probably because it extends the content quite a lot for doing very little work for developer

I wish developers would try not to extend a game by adding crap to it. Just make a linear game that maybe short but sweet, but I know that won't happen again, every game also needs a multi-player on it too...
*sigh*
I miss not having multi-player
 

JoshGod

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Aug 31, 2009
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yes it is stupid as its a game so i dont really give a damn im only intereste in which makes me have the pooowwer!
yeah infamous did it well but if they just did 1 story it probly would of been better without the bull ending
 

josh797

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Nov 20, 2007
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delta4062 said:
josh797 said:
delta4062 said:
josh797 said:
delta4062 said:
Also, BLOG IT.
what do you mean? also i know of no game that does good vs evil well. can your provide examples?
KOTOR 1 and 2, Persona 3 and 4 and many other RPGs.Also you clearly dont know what a captial letter is either.
yeah, i know, its late. give me a break. also what about those games made the alternate storylines good? why is it done well in your opinion? also what did you mean by "BLOG IT"?
Why? because it was done well, I could choose to save or kill innocents, Let outcasts join me, or leace them to fend for themselves, I could choose to Destroy te sith, or Take my rightful place as a Sith Lord. Games that do Good an Evil bad are games like Infamous, you have Karmic choices but it doesnt alter the story at all.
What I mean by BLOG IT I mean put it iin your BLOG. Actaully does the escapist even have Blogs?
ok thanks, i dont know much about those games, never played em myself, as for the blog, i dont have one, except facebook, which i suppose i could do.... hmmm i guess i will. but no, the escapist has no blog
 

The Madman

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Dec 7, 2007
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There are a couple games that do it extremely well and wouldn't be the same without it. Knights of the Old Republic wouldn't be the same without it for example, as choosing your path plays a major part in the theme of the story. The entire game, the whole story and concept is based around the idea of the player choosing their own morality.

Same with other games like The Witcher, or Neverwinter Nigts 2: Mask of the Betrayer. In Planescape: Torment playing as both an evil bastard and a righteous beacon of goodness can open entirely different approach to situation and give wholly different perspective on various situation.

It's also used as an element to add 'immersion' in many western rpg. Fallout and Baldur's Gate for example. It's not just any character you're playing as but an avatar of yourself, making the choices *you* would make rather than just doing what the story says you should. And it's because of that element of immersion that both Fallout and Baldur's Gate are considered two of the greatest rpg series ever made.

Hell, I remember in Vampire: Bloodlines rather than a good/evil system (You're already a vampire, so being good would kinda be impossible when you're mauling people for blood!) it had a 'humanity' system. What was amazing about it was how the lower your humanity dropped your characters dialogue would change, subtly, to suit it as rather than calling people people you'd start referring to them as 'cattle' and rather than saving the poor saps if you see one in trouble, the options open up to take advantage of their situations and *feeeeeeed*.

Your choices, how you were playing were having a visible impact on your character who reflected your choices. It's amazingly immersive and makes you care all the more for that character you're playing because they're not just some random snob, it's who you want them to be.

I think you just haven't been playing the right games honestly. Good/Evil works amazingly well in quite a few titles and doesn't impede the story at all. Planescape: Torment is widely considered to have the best story ever put into a game and it's got morality and alignment choices.

All a matter of how well the developers implement it. Me? I like it!
 

syndicated44

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Apr 25, 2009
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I prefer games that give you the option but dont reward you for it. Take Oblivion for instance there isnt a karma system. There are multiple ways to do a mission whether it be good or evil but you dont get anything for doing it good or evil. You just have the quest done and you get your reward. In the end it is much a much more rewarding experiance because you have to live with yourself. If you get a reward you have an excuse for being an evil character or a good character. The game is actively promoting you to do it. But if the game doesnt give a damn it is entirely up to the player and you have no one to blame if your actions have repercussions or not.
 

Knight Templar

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Dec 29, 2007
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Somebody needs to play some more Bioware games.
But seriously I agree to a point, for example the "evil" decisions in Fallout 3 were often just silly. Blow up megaton and treck across the wasteland for 500 caps, or get use of the shops ,houses and doctors of megaton while receving 200 caps and with no need to travel. One is the smart option, the other is stupid, good and evil don't enter into it. However as i said I only agree to a point, because I'm all for moral choice, I just want it done right.

Karma meters are even more silly, unless they judge things such as how closely you follow the law or other more stable things.


EDIT: Watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOXAtPvMDk it explains the problems that Moral choice systems have.
 

comadorcrack

The Master of Speilingz
Mar 19, 2009
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I generally Don't like them in games which it makes no sense. Like INfamous. But in KotOR it fits in with the star wars Mythos. So I'll agree with it in those sorts of games. But not in others.

Also Bioshock is one where it makes sense. But it dosnt really make any difference to the game. It just sorta makes you feel bad and then give you a sucky ending.
 

syndicated44

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As I have been sitting here thinking I guess Vampires the Masquerade Bloodlines had an interesting take on good vs evil. Doing more malicious things made you lose touch with your humanity and possibly having a masquerade violation which if you had enough would end the game. But if you lost enough humanity by say killing alot innocent people you would go into a rage gaining a huge benefit to your stats but losing all control of your character. You could also gain humanity back by doing good things like saving somebody completely unrelated to the game from death.
 

blackfrancis567

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Oct 18, 2008
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Get over it? Seriously Moral choice systems add a sense of immersion since you get to choose which way the story goes. Linearity in games is great but sometimes people want something different but since your opinion is the only thing that matters and by the looks of it when someone makes a good point the most you can get out is a childish "THIS IS STUPID" I say grow up and realise the world doesn't revolve around you. Game's will be made with good vs evil choices so if you hate it that much either ignore them games or put up with them
 

Insanum

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May 26, 2009
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I think you have got some points there. Theres nothing more annoying than "you cant use because your too good/evil" However the flip side too this is that you get to make decisions which affect the game world. Sure its sometimes exaggerated, But I hate it when you'ce spent the whole game trying to get to a certain point, Then the character does something that you wouldn't do, Or theres a big plot twist and you have to do some grinding Missions instead of killing them all.

I guess you should be ranting at the lack of DECENT Good Vs Evil options. Without Player options you can have a linear game experience. Which personally i hate.
 

AvsJoe

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MaxTheReaper said:
You are not the only person that matters.

I am.
Wow Max. It seems like he really struck a nerve of yours with his post. You really outdid yourself this time. Great reply (ies?).
MaxTheReaper said:
josh797 said:
so simple organic choices that we make ever day in our lives can never exist in games.
Incorrect.
They cannot, as of yet, exist in games.
People used to think that the horse and wagon would never be improved upon.
In 1908 it was generally believed that everything that could be invented had been so at that time. Boy were they wrong. That's why I always assume that everything can be done, we just haven't figured out how to do it yet. I too believe that games like that will exist. I figure within the next decade a lot of games will be able to do so, and do it well. We just need to be patient...
 

chase211

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delta4062 said:
They only suck if done wrong. When done right they are excellent.
Also, BLOG IT.
But in what game have they been done right? I can think of many that have done it wrong, not many that have done it right.

Star Wars KOTAR did it OK I guess, beyond that, Fable 2 did a terrible job, it implied a "karma" system as you played through the game then at the end made you "pick" what ending you wanted to see.

Good vs. Evil can bring alot to a game, but it can also simply be a ill designed let down. The problem with Good Vs. Evil games is it is a concept that takes A LOT of effort and polish to do well, much like how several years back Open World games were a huge trend, which lead to many OPEN BUT EMPTY world games that simply did not flesh out that element enough for it to be an actual asset to the game, and instead it was a determent.

The problem with this type of a gameplay element is that it so often in games is an afterthought and the developer simply adds an ending with 2 choices, most commonly "save or kill", so you do the "save them" option, then reload your save, and watch the "kill them" choice. This type of gameplay mechanic is simply not well done and brings nothing to the table but an optional cutscene. As many above said, when it is done right and polished it can be a very sweet thing, like most gameplay mechanics.

Anoctris said:
And if you boycott 'choice' games because they're failing to deliver, they're not going to get any better are they? Publishers/Developers need feedback to improve their games.
I could not possibly disagree more. Giving the developers the message "your failing to deliver but I'll give you my money anyways" is absolutely the worst possible thing you could do to convince them to improve their games, I think companies like EA have proved that quarter after quarter. If a game is not doing a good job, do the responsible thing and don't buy it.
 

The_Healer

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Jun 17, 2009
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I enjoy a good karma based decision.
It makes it all so much sweeter if I know I can be completely evil and contribute to my power.
Also, since I am a complete cheap ass I enjoy getting the most amount of game-play for my buck.
Oh and being a fairly large achievement whore, having the choice also gives me more trophies to win.

So all around, you're looking wrong to me my friend.
 

Jenova65

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Oct 3, 2009
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Also Jade Empire, that is a great example of choice in game, yup, no mistake Bioware do it best!
 

Inco

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Sep 12, 2008
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MaxTheReaper said:
Snipped For length
Basically enough, I don't have to really say anything, because that breakdown and subsequent ripping-to-shreds of that guys argument really says it all.

EDIT- For the Sake of argument. I like the good vs evil choices, because sometimes they can mislead you and really make you regret decisions that you may have taken. Well, at least i am wishing for a developer to do this, so that the quick save option when making decisions is absent.