Google, Yahoo Partner to Create Encrypted Email System

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Whoracle said:
Tamayo said:
Thanks for bearing with me. I understand a bit better now, however.....

If Bobs Public key is the only thing needed to encrypt the message, why it cannot be used to also decrpyt it by reversing the process?

Tamayo mentions its "Hard" but isnt that just using same encryption in reverse?
 

Whoracle

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Jan 7, 2008
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Tamayo said:
(A key which he keeps on a read-only storage device that is always on or near his person, and never copies to any other storage device. Right, Whoracle? ;-) )
ROM SmartCard [http://shop.kernelconcepts.de/product_info.php?cPath=1_26&products_id=42]. The key was even generated on the damn thing. Now, if that hardware has a backdoor, then I'm screwed, but that's the crux: There's always SOMEONE you have to trust...

Strazdas said:
Tamayo mentions its "Hard" but isnt that just using same encryption in reverse?
See, this is where the math comes in. Tamayo can explain that way better if you've got a head for it, but until he chips in, suffice to say that no, it's not simply doing stuff in reverse. Until you understand the math, accept that there is a way of creating a keypair where key 2 depends on key 1, but key 1 does not depend on key 2, and where you can encrypt something with key 2 that can only be decrypted with key 1.
That's why it's called asymmetrical encryption ;)
 

Tamayo

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May 16, 2014
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Whoracle said:
ROM SmartCard [http://shop.kernelconcepts.de/product_info.php?cPath=1_26&products_id=42]. The key was even generated on the damn thing. Now, if that hardware has a backdoor, then I'm screwed, but that's the crux: There's always SOMEONE you have to trust...
I'm impressed. *bow*

Whoracle said:
Strazdas said:
Tamayo mentions its "Hard" but isnt that just using same encryption in reverse?
See, this is where the math comes in. Tamayo can explain that way better if you've got a head for it, but until he chips in, suffice to say that no, it's not simply doing stuff in reverse.
er, s/he/she/g

I get this a lot. It's not easy being green. Or short. Or ... um ... yeah.

On topic: the difficulty is similar (but not exactly the same, naturally) to the fact that division is more difficult than addition. Factoring numbers is a kind of division where the dividend is unknown; if you have to search through all different possible dividends, that makes it even harder. Consider my example of n=p*q; if p and q each have 1000 decimal digits, that's an immense and terrifying task one sets oneself. Yes, there are ways of reducing the search space[footnote]The General Number Field Sieve, to be precise---or Shor's algorithm, if you have a quantum computer[/footnote], but until quantum computers are available, they're not good enough.

Edit:

I may not have been sufficiently explicit. Encrypting something in RSA is taking a value m and exponentiating it to the power e, that is, multiplying m by itself e times, modulo n, which is the public key.[footnote]Actually, for an e which is less than 2^f but more than or equal to 2^(f-1), then it takes at most 2*f multiplications.[/footnote] That's fairly slow, but tolerable.

Consequently, decrypting a value c=m^e(mod n) in RSA must be an inverse exponentiation, modulo n. However, inverse exponentiations in general are difficult to perform. I'll have to mention a little bit of math, here, and I'm sorry I didn't do it earlier.

Theorem. ("Fermat's Little Theorem") Let p be a prime, and let a be a positive integer. Then a^p is congruent to a, modulo p. Furthermore, if p does not divide a, then a^(p-1) is congruent to 1, modulo p. (Proof omitted.)

Let e and d be positive integers such that e*d = 1(mod p). Then a^(e*d) = a (mod p). But a^(e*d) = (a^e)^d; that is, if we know e, and (a^e), we can recover a just by exponentiating (a^e) to the power of d, modulo p. Finding such a d where e*d = 1(mod p) is easy, but only because p is a prime.

Theorem. ("Chinese Remainder Theorem") Let s and t be different positive integers each at least two and such that the greatest common divisor of s and t is 1.[footnote]This condition is trivially satisified if s and t are both primes.[/footnote] Let c be a positive integer less than s*t. Then there exist unique positive integers a and b less than s and t respectively such that c = a*b (mod s*t). (Proof omitted.) It is important here to note that given s, t, and c, it is easy and swift to calculate a and b. It is also important to note that finding a c such that 1 <= c < s*t given a and b where 1 <= a < s and 1 <= b < t is even easier and swifter.

So, back to the RSA decryption example: remember that c=m^e(mod n), and m is unknown. However, if we know the factorization n=p*q, we can use the Chinese Remainder Theorem to represent c as c_p and c_q and e as e_p and e_q. Then we can use Fermat's Little Theorem to find the inverses of c_p (mod p) and c_q (mod q). Explicitly, given c_p, we want to find m_p. But c_p = m_p^e_p (mod p) and (by Fermat's Little Theorem) m_p=(m_p^e_p)^(e_p^-1 (mod p)) (mod p), so m_p = c_p^(e_p^-1 (mod p)). Similarly, we find m_q = c_q^(e_q^-1(mod q)) (mod q).

Finally, having found m_p and m_q, we use the Chinese Remainder Theorem again to find the related unique m where 1 <= m < p*q, and we have thus decrypted the message c. Instead of using a difficult procedure (finding an inverse modulo a composite number n) we have used secret knowledge (the factorization of n into p and q) to operate in the far simpler realm of inverting modulo the prime factors of n.

Any asymmetric cryptosystem has this kind of structure. Encrypting something is a matter of applying a function which is difficult in general to invert; decrypting something is a matter of using secret knowledge to make a special case in the difficulty of inversion.
 

Whoracle

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Jan 7, 2008
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Tamayo said:
I'm impressed. *bow*
Sysadmin. Paranoia kinda comes with the job description :)
Also I use the key way more for signing messages than for decrypting them. In fact, encryption is only the icing on the cake, signing is the more useful feature 99% of the time. And that's worth the hassle :)

Tamayo said:
er, s/he/she/g

I get this a lot. It's not easy being green. Or short. Or ... um ... yeah.
My bad. I automatically assume names ending with "o" to be male. Don't know why *shrug*. Sorry.
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
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TheSniperFan said:
He said that he doesn't have anything to hide. How's that "obviously referring to stuf that goes in email" only?
Because it was obvious.

TheSniperFan said:
First: How was my statement lacking in courtesy?
Second: How doesn't it make any sense?
If one says that he has nothing to hide, one can freely share everything. If one doesn't want to share everything, one has something to hide. It's as easy as that.

Over the past few months Snowden has proven that there is an entity in your country that breaks laws like clockwork, doesn't give a shit and became virtually uncontrollable by your own government. Still, the majority doesn't seem to care.

The "I don't have anything to hide" mentality is what puts the icing on the top. It frustrates me because I hear it a lot.
Saying this proves that a person either doesn't care about an issue of such colossal importance because they fail to (or don't want to) see how it affects them (and pretty much everyone else) or are just lacking the intelligence to understand its importance.

Either way it makes me sad to hear this...
This does not excuse you from coming at people with extremely-literal interpretations of their statements in a manner designed to annoy. Of course, there is always the case that you were literally taking it literally, in which case I must ask you to stop doing so. I think perhaps that your view of my country is not accurate, but that is a side-point to the fact that you simply shouldn't be like that to people in a serious conversation. It comes off as rude.
 

Tamayo

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May 16, 2014
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Whoracle said:
Tamayo said:
er, s/he/she/g

I get this a lot. It's not easy being green. Or short. Or ... um ... yeah.
My bad. I automatically assume names ending with "o" to be male. Don't know why *shrug*. Sorry.
Ah, but it's a "-yo" mora, not an "-o". ;-) It was my great-grandmother's name, and then my UO character's (this is a gaming site, right?) and then my userid for casual discussion fora. My own name is just too boring to mention so I shall not do that.

And, on topic, I again applaud your well-considered paranoia. In that digital signatures are really astonishingly useful, however, and in that they are still fairly rarely used casually outside the small community of virtuous paranoiacs, do you occasionally wonder if your use of them will attract the attention of unsavoury sorts from three-letter agencies?
 

Whoracle

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Jan 7, 2008
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Tamayo said:
In that digital signatures are really astonishingly useful, however, and in that they are still fairly rarely used casually outside the small community of virtuous paranoiacs, do you occasionally wonder if your use of them will attract the attention of unsavoury sorts from three-letter agencies?
Given that our three-lettered friends are taking the dragnet approach anyways, it doesn't really matter if I'm attracting their attention.
And even without the dragnet as it is, I'm very likely to be in one or more of their finer-meshed dragnets, given my interests and acquaintances. I attend the Chaos Computer Congress annually, and I use TOR, so that alone nets me a place on at least two of their "let's keep that guy in mind" lists. Not high up on those very big lists, granted, but still.

And if they see me signing or encrypting as reason to target me specifically (which I doubt, tbh), then it's all the more reason to encrypt. I encrypt everything I can, just on the off-chance that they deem me important enough to spend a few computing years on cracking the encryption of my grocery list :)

But yes, encrypting nets me a place on their lists, pretty sure of that. And that factoid alone is worth encrypting for, because privacy of communication is one of our greatest goods, and the very fact that attempting to communicate in privacy is enough to get surveyed speaks volumes of our current state.