GOT: That Sansa scene (spoilers)

LostCrusader

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erttheking said:
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to let her out of his sight, it makes no sense for the Boltons to not assume that she'll want revenge for the death of Robb and her mother, it doesn't make any sense in terms of meeting up with Stannis (Wouldn't a Stark riding out to meet Stannis be a great way to rally the North under his banner? Instead of sitting on her ass waiting for him to come to her?)
I'm curious why you think she would go out and join Stannis. She is only there because Littlefinger brought her there, seemingly as a bargaining chip to make the Boltons think he is their ally. Still seems up in the air which way he will go on that, but he hasn't ever shown any allegiance to Stannis.

But I also got the feeling that the scene with Sansa was just there to be edgy.
Plus it looked like they almost did it again with Gilly in the next episode.
 

Erttheking

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LostCrusader said:
erttheking said:
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to let her out of his sight, it makes no sense for the Boltons to not assume that she'll want revenge for the death of Robb and her mother, it doesn't make any sense in terms of meeting up with Stannis (Wouldn't a Stark riding out to meet Stannis be a great way to rally the North under his banner? Instead of sitting on her ass waiting for him to come to her?)
I'm curious why you think she would go out and join Stannis. She is only there because Littlefinger brought her there, seemingly as a bargaining chip to make the Boltons think he is their ally. Still seems up in the air which way he will go on that, but he hasn't ever shown any allegiance to Stannis.

But I also got the feeling that the scene with Sansa was just there to be edgy.
Plus it looked like they almost did it again with Gilly in the next episode.
True, Littlefinger might not ally with Stannis. But what Sansa and Littlefinger want are not one in the same. Stannis is openly waging war on the people who betrayed her brother. Sansa could rally the North to her side if she sided with Stannis. And consider Littlefinger is enough of a dumbass in the show to let her out of his sight with the rapist murderer Ramsay, I don't think it would be impossible for Sansa to slip off on her own. And the end of her arc in the Vale showed that she WAS supposed to be getting good at politics. Something else that got thrown out of the window like Bran I guess.
 

Redd the Sock

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I'm not a fan of the looser definitions of rape, and even I said this was rape. Pure clothes tearing, face in the pillow, getting off on the terror style rape. I mean, look at Danereys and Drogo from the first season for comparison. She didn't want to be there, and he seemed indifferent to her pleasure, but he didn't delight in being cruel to her.

As for the purpose, it fits. Ramsey has been put into the role of replacement Joffery and they seem to try and make him cruel. Frankly, Sansa wasn't all that shocking after how he's been portrayed treating the Forrester family in the teltale video game. Sansa on the other hand has been one big deconstruction of the medieval princess character and the kingdoms they were in. Factor in this has always been a show that purposely knocks most of its heroes down and hard at that, and it was a scene almost destined to happen.

The last point is the most poignant though. I've seen people bring up the "why did that have to happen to the character instead of something good happening to them" things in several shows and other ongoing series a lot and it always misses the point of ongoing fiction: we aren't supposed to take shortcuts to the happy ending. No, this wasn't the arc I'd have chosen for Sansa, but since we're here, it's safe to say that until the show is done, or they want her off the show, she won't be rescued from Ramsey any more than she was rescued from Joffery, or will be from whatever shithole situation she'll end up in next. Characters are here to be put through trials, and the tone of the show isn't going to be about Sansa finding happiness with a decent guy like a romantic comedy.

Will she get a happy ending: in this show I have doubts, but there's always the possibility it will happen. Just remember the show is over at that point.
 

LostCrusader

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erttheking said:
LostCrusader said:
erttheking said:
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to let her out of his sight, it makes no sense for the Boltons to not assume that she'll want revenge for the death of Robb and her mother, it doesn't make any sense in terms of meeting up with Stannis (Wouldn't a Stark riding out to meet Stannis be a great way to rally the North under his banner? Instead of sitting on her ass waiting for him to come to her?)
I'm curious why you think she would go out and join Stannis. She is only there because Littlefinger brought her there, seemingly as a bargaining chip to make the Boltons think he is their ally. Still seems up in the air which way he will go on that, but he hasn't ever shown any allegiance to Stannis.

But I also got the feeling that the scene with Sansa was just there to be edgy.
Plus it looked like they almost did it again with Gilly in the next episode.
True, Littlefinger might not ally with Stannis. But what Sansa and Littlefinger want are not one in the same. Stannis is openly waging war on the people who betrayed her brother. Sansa could rally the North to her side if she sided with Stannis. And consider Littlefinger is enough of a dumbass in the show to let her out of his sight with the rapist murderer Ramsay, I don't think it would be impossible for Sansa to slip off on her own. And the end of her arc in the Vale showed that she WAS supposed to be getting good at politics. Something else that got thrown out of the window like Bran I guess.
Ok, I get your point of view there. I didn't take her change as she understands politics, but just her siding with the devil she knows who rescued her. I would think she would have gained a very strong distrust of people she doesn't know after King's Landing, and would then side with Littlefinger since she thinks she understands him. So from my view going off to join Stannis and hoping for the best wouldn't fit.
 

happyninja42

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lechat said:
I was kinda hoping someone else would open this can of worms but anyway here goes.

I briefly glanced at a click bait article about how game of thrones played off the rape scene just for the lolz and what scum bags the producers were for having a rape scene "lightly" added for pure entertainment value which raised a few questions.
*blinks* How can they say it was "lightly" added for entertainment. It was shown to establish that Sansa is still in trouble and danger no matter where she is, and that she is in the hands of a demented fuck who thrives on harming others. I thought it accomplished this quite effectively, with the tense, ominous music, her obvious fear, and Theon's expression of pure disgust and misery as he was forced to watch.

lechat said:
For starters was it rape? And I instantly feel like shit for asking that question because I think we all know she wasn't exactly thrilled with the circumstances but when you start talking about these kinds of royal arranged marriages based on convenience there starts to be a kinda grey area between rape and just having a disgusting forced husband that you reluctantly sleep with because it's your duty.
Yeah, this is where it gets weird. By modern standards, yes, this was rape. By midievil standards, not really. It was an arranged marriage, that she agreed to, and in those days, a marriage wasn't "legal" until the couple had had sex. So it was expected. She knew what was going to happen in that bedroom. She had options to try and get out of that situation, but chose not to use them. So was it rape? Eh...*sighs heavily*...I still have to go with no, not in the context of the GoT world. Was it brutal and shitty? Yep, without a doubt.

lechat said:
The next question is about rape as entertainment. I found the scene fairly uncomfortable especially since Sansa is one of my favourite characters and I wanted something better for her but life's not fair, people are scum and the game of thrones world is brutal so I don't think the producers should shy away from the topic especially if it leads to good character development and gives us another villain to hate like joffrey.
I didn't find the scene "entertaining" at all. If we're classifying anything in an entertainment show as "entertainment", then eveyr single scene is "entertainment". And that just seems silly. I doubt the creators were using the scene with the hopes of having people go "Wow! That was so fucking hot! Let's watch that scene again to hear her get raped! Because that's the sexiest thing I've seen in weeks!" Because remember, we don't actually see it. We hear it, while looking at Theon's face, showing how upset he was at the situation. It seems pretty apparent (to me), that the intent of the scene was to say "this is a very bad thing happening. it's something happening to a character a lot of people like, and hoped wouldn't happen to her. You're not supposed to like this scene, but you are supposed to come away from it understanding that Sansa's situation is even more dire now, than it was before."

When I was watching that scene, I had two thoughts running in my head.

1. *while the situation is building up* "Come on Theon! Do something! Grab a candelabra and club him on the back of the head! Save Sansa!" I knew this wasn't going to happen here, but that was what my brain wanted to happen.

2. *after credits rolled* "Fuck, Sansa just cannot catch a break! It's just shitstorm to shitstorm to shitstorm for her!" And I actually have to give the show credit, they've made me actually like Sansa. In the books, where I get her internal dialogue with herself, my god is she fucking annoying. She's so vapid and vain, and pampered and stupid and naive, it hurts. I seriously almost put the next to last book down simply because of how much page time GRRM gave to Sansa. I just wanted to shake her and slap her and tell her to wake up, grow up, and stop acting like a spoiled little *****. The show's Sansa, waaaay more sympathetic. I actually like the show's portrayal of her, and want things to go well for her. So I have to give them credit there.
 

Erttheking

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LostCrusader said:
erttheking said:
LostCrusader said:
erttheking said:
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to let her out of his sight, it makes no sense for the Boltons to not assume that she'll want revenge for the death of Robb and her mother, it doesn't make any sense in terms of meeting up with Stannis (Wouldn't a Stark riding out to meet Stannis be a great way to rally the North under his banner? Instead of sitting on her ass waiting for him to come to her?)
I'm curious why you think she would go out and join Stannis. She is only there because Littlefinger brought her there, seemingly as a bargaining chip to make the Boltons think he is their ally. Still seems up in the air which way he will go on that, but he hasn't ever shown any allegiance to Stannis.

But I also got the feeling that the scene with Sansa was just there to be edgy.
Plus it looked like they almost did it again with Gilly in the next episode.
True, Littlefinger might not ally with Stannis. But what Sansa and Littlefinger want are not one in the same. Stannis is openly waging war on the people who betrayed her brother. Sansa could rally the North to her side if she sided with Stannis. And consider Littlefinger is enough of a dumbass in the show to let her out of his sight with the rapist murderer Ramsay, I don't think it would be impossible for Sansa to slip off on her own. And the end of her arc in the Vale showed that she WAS supposed to be getting good at politics. Something else that got thrown out of the window like Bran I guess.
Ok, I get your point of view there. I didn't take her change as she understands politics, but just her siding with the devil she knows who rescued her. I would think she would have gained a very strong distrust of people she doesn't know after King's Landing, and would then side with Littlefinger since she thinks she understands him. So from my view going off to join Stannis and hoping for the best wouldn't fit.
Now she might not trust Stannis, I can understand that, it's canon that he's as charismatic as a brick and hasn't raised a good reputation for himself with the whole burning people thing (Something the show apparently made worse) but I still feel like she would stick Stannis when the alternatives were freaking Roose and Ramsey. Someone she doesn't know if she can trust is better than someone she knows she can't.

Besides, the tale that Littlefinger spun for her involved allying with Stannis in the end.
 

Ravenbom

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Why are people qualifying that it's rape in our society? Of course it's rape here today in America. You don't need to qualify that. At least you shouldn't need to qualify that.
If she was book age it'd also be statutory.
It also wouldn't be marriage in America today since she's not an age (in the book) of majority.


It's not a rape scene. I don't like how the click-bait articles are calling all these sex scenes rape in Game of Thrones now. They did the same when Jamie and Cersei last had sex.


As pointed out, the scene wasn't about sex, it was about how Sansa's childish fairytale ideals are continually being torn to shreds. But in particular, this scene was a little bit more than that. In this season she's becoming hardened to the world and learning to play the Game of Thrones within the narrow boundaries allowed to her.
Cersei lived in those boundaries and overstepped them in an inelegant way which is coming back to bite her in the ass, while Sansa is a synthesis of what she learned from everyone she's met so far which makes her transformation and her character finally interesting.
 

Erttheking

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Ravenbom said:
It's not a rape scene.
I'm sorry, the show can't have Ramsay forcibly ripping her dress off, force her onto the bed, have her look like she's about to start crying, having sad music blaring in the background and Ramsay forcing Theon to watch and have him look like he's about to start crying and then try to claim it's NOT a rape scene. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's not fucked up, the show's been making that clear with slavery and men being forced to fight for their lives in fighting pits in Essos. And everyone thought that the Jamie and Cersei scene was rape because the director royally fucked up.

Not to mention people in universe saying "It's not rape, they were married" has been a thing for awhile now and it usually still portrayed as fucked. Like in this show.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaritalRapeLicense

So if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm calling it a duck.

And it's about her fantasies being torn to shreds? Those fantasies were all dead and buried by the end of season two. I fail to see what this scene added that hasn't been done a hundred times over by earlier seasons. And Sansa learning to play the game and showing what she learned required Ramsy to stick his dick in her how? She isn't playing the game of thrones at all. She's just being a victim. Again.
 

Fappy

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That scene was just one in a long list of huge issues with this season of GoT. I'm pretty much ready to write it and anything that follows off as glorified fan fiction, and I haven't even read the books. GoT's greatness came and went.
 

Silence

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Yes it was rape.

No, it was not nearly as controversial as Daenerys' rape scene is Season 1.
And this is why the outrage about it is dumb.
 

Mikeybb

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It was rape even if permissible by the laws in that setting and it certainly wasn't played for laughs.

Harrowing, abusive (towards sansa and what's left of theon in reek) and not pleasant to watch.
Technically entertainment as it's part of a story being told for that purpose, but no worse than any fictional featuring of rape in this or other medium.

Sansa sometimes does feel like the shows pinata, but I suspect she's stronger than people realize and will, should the chance fall to her, rise as a truly dangerous and cunning courtier given time.

Oh, another vote for a change in title here.
I may be up to date, but I get spoilerphobic by proxy.
 

Erttheking

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the silence said:
Yes it was rape.

No, it was not nearly as controversial as Daenerys' rape scene is Season 1.
And this is why the outrage about it is dumb.
At least they did something with that, considering it was the start in her arc from Dany's growth from little mewling little girl to conqueror. Not to mention it formed a large part of her motivation with freeing slaves and staying in Slaver's Bay.

With Sansa her character had already gone through everything. She was starting to become more independent after escaping Joffery and then she goes to the Boltons (For stupid reasons) and then gets raped by him because...it builds character I guess. Honestly, Sansa's character feels like it's regressing. It's a repeat of what she went through in the first few seasons.
 

Politrukk

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Under laws and regulations from the historic periods it might reflect and the setting itself, rape in the sense of forcing sex in a marriage was legal.

Especially under nobles the production of an heir was obligatory, it validated the marriage.

That's simply what they've shown.


Edit: So legally it would not be considered rape but looking at it you're obviously seeing rape, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be portrayed as such.
 

Silence

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erttheking said:
the silence said:
Yes it was rape.

No, it was not nearly as controversial as Daenerys' rape scene is Season 1.
And this is why the outrage about it is dumb.
At least they did something with that, considering it was the start in her arc from Dany's growth from little mewling little girl to conqueror. Not to mention it formed a large part of her motivation with freeing slaves and staying in Slaver's Bay.

With Sansa her character had already gone through everything. She was starting to become more independent after escaping Joffery and then she goes to the Boltons (For stupid reasons) and then gets raped by him because...it builds character I guess. Honestly, Sansa's character feels like it's regressing. It's a repeat of what she went through in the first few seasons.
I felt like she was regressing beforehand. She always did Littlefingers bidding.

Now she might actually do something. Out of desperation, yes, but it's more than she ever did before.
 

Erttheking

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the silence said:
erttheking said:
the silence said:
Yes it was rape.

No, it was not nearly as controversial as Daenerys' rape scene is Season 1.
And this is why the outrage about it is dumb.
At least they did something with that, considering it was the start in her arc from Dany's growth from little mewling little girl to conqueror. Not to mention it formed a large part of her motivation with freeing slaves and staying in Slaver's Bay.

With Sansa her character had already gone through everything. She was starting to become more independent after escaping Joffery and then she goes to the Boltons (For stupid reasons) and then gets raped by him because...it builds character I guess. Honestly, Sansa's character feels like it's regressing. It's a repeat of what she went through in the first few seasons.
I felt like she was regressing beforehand. She always did Littlefingers bidding.

Now she might actually do something. Out of desperation, yes, but it's more than she ever did before.
At least before she tried to subvert Joffery's rule in under the table ways. Tricking him into sparing that drunk knight, trying to escape with Loras. And even with Littlefinger she spun her tail in a way that made it clear that she was getting good at manipulation. Here she's just kinda sitting around being a victim.
 

TakerFoxx

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I'm not caught up in the tv show so I haven't seen the scene in question, but I have read the books so I'm at least familiar with the plotline and where it's going to go. And I'm not really sure how I feel about this event, so I'm going to suspend judgment until later. However, I do personally find the rape scene and people's reactions to it to be very interesting.

See, I have a few pet peeves when it comes to fiction, and one of the biggest is something I call "Redshirt Philosophy." Like the name implies, it's the trend of allowing horrible things to happen to side characters but ensuring that the main characters' plot armor stays fastened. You have things like innocent nobodies getting eaten by the monster of the week, bystanders becoming collateral damage, the main bad guy raping/murdering their way through countless people whose names we never learn, but at the end of the day it's okay, because at least the hero rescued their loved one, defeated the villain, and saved the day.

Personally, I find that trend to be very disturbing. Maybe it's because I've always been pretty empathetic for fictional characters, but to my mind, the only difference between the main characters and those walk-ons is plot focus and viewpoint, and the life of the hero and the people they care about really isn't worth more than the lives of those that are killed just to make the bad guy look worse. It always bothered me how in shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, you'd have multiple students die every episode and then just get forgotten, whereas if someone the hero cares about is so much as threatened, it's treated like a huge deal. Meanwhile, I'm going, "But what about the families of those kids that got killed at the beginning? What about their friends and loved ones? Don't they matter?" I dunno, it's just really disturbing to me.

I guess that's part of the reason why I like ASoIaF and GoT so much, because while the books and show are downright brutal, they're at least equal-opportunity about it. There's no plot armor, the main characters have just as much chance of dying as the nameless redshirts, and the deaths actually feel like deaths. Hell, even the deaths of Lommy and the butcher's boy ended up having consequences long after the fact, when in most series they would just be forgotten. It makes everyone who isn't a POV character feel like they're treated as actual people instead of just plot devices.

Now, regarding the rape scene, that bit is still in the books, though it happens to a nobody named Jeyne Poole who had barely any lines up until then and did nothing of significance until she was married off to Ramsay Bolton. But no one really raised much of a fuss other than to feel sorry for Jeyne, because Ramsay's a monster and because it was ASoIaF, and that's just what happens if you're unlucky enough to live in Westeros. The only thing that's really different is who it's happening to. It's still a cute girl that we feel sorry for, but instead of it happening to a nobody character, it's happening to one of the mains, someone whose story we've seen in detail and has receive substantial character development. And that's why people are upset. It's not that it happened, it's who it's happening to. If it had been someone nameless or unimportant, I doubt anyone would have really been upset, even though the in-universe situation would have been exactly the same.

I mean, let's face it. Brutal rape is something that so rarely happens to mains. It almost always happens to other, unimportant characters who are really just there for the heroes to feel sorry for and/or to show how evil the villain is. And if one of the main characters does get raped, it's usually part of the backstory and a major driving force in their motivations. And if it does happen partway through the story, it usually happens either to someone already established as being strong enough to survive and rise above it or someone who wasn't all that sympathetic to begin with. But the cute, sympathetic girl with lots of character development? Nope, barely ever happens. So in that sense, you could say that the show managed to out-Martin Martin himself.

Again, I don't know yet how I feel about this scene. Of course I'm not at all approving of an innocent girl being raped by a monster. But at least the show is sticking to it's equal-opportunity standards of bad things happening to everyone. And in regards to what I said earlier about Redshirt Philosophy, I do find the reactions to be...pretty interesting.
 

chikusho

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TakerFoxx said:
See, I have a few pet peeves when it comes to fiction, and one of the biggest is something I call "Redshirt Philosophy." Like the name implies, it's the trend of allowing horrible things to happen to side characters but ensuring that the main characters' plot armor stays fastened. You have things like innocent nobodies getting eaten by the monster of the week, bystanders becoming collateral damage, the main bad guy raping/murdering their way through countless people whose names we never learn, but at the end of the day it's okay, because at least the hero rescued their loved one, defeated the villain, and saved the day.
You know, this is actually realistic as hell. Of course you care more about someone you know than someone you don't. Someone gets murdered somewhere across the world? That's bad, sure. Your brother gets murdered? That's one of the worst things you will ever have to experience.

You can think of it this way: the death of the redshirt matters - just in another story. Only, in that story they are the main characters.
 
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The scene was inevitable. In fairness, it wasn't strictly necessary since Ramsay was already loathsome and as evil as can be, and Sansa was a victim without the power to control her destiny or protect herself. As such, his raping her didn't add anything to their characters that wasn't already there.

I find it amusing that SJWs and myriad websites/fans are up in arms over the scene. Somehow what happened to Sansa is so bad that they can't watch the show anymore. So it was fine when Ramsay kidnapped, tortured and broke Theon as well as chopping off his manhood? IMO that is far worse than what Ramsay did to Sansa. Not even to mention the number of people he's flayed alive or hunted with dogs who tore them apart.

The scene wasn't entertaining. It was brutal and perpetrated by an evil, sadistic character which fits into the context of the show and is in keeping with the character and story. I think if anything, it is a good thing to have a scene like that about which people feel so strongly. It creates discussion, shows how horrific an experience rape can be and it does exactly what art should do, if not *must* do. Instead of trying to silence artists who portray brutal scenes, they should be thankful that there's *anyone* who is breaking the taboo and creating discussion on the subject.

My understanding is that in the books, the character to whom Ramsay was wed and who he later raped was a woman called Jeyne Poole who was actually masquerading as Arya. However the showrunners incorporated that character into Sansa's role to avoid too many new characters (and to give her a larger role).

So much of what's going on this season is utterly predictable. Cersei sends Lord Tyrell off with her Kingsguardsman; to Braavos, where Arya is, and he just so happens to be on her hitlist. Cersei, like a frikkin idiot sets about destroying the alliance with the Tyrell's, the only thing keeping the Lannister's in power and uses the High Sparrow to do so; a man under whose auspices works her now devout cousin, Lancel (s/p?) who also slept with her (incest) and was part of her plot to murder her husband. Yeah, I wonder how that's going to end. *eyeroll*