Yeah, don't get me wrong, I love the driving aspect of car related games otherwise I wouldn't play them! I think you're oversimplifying my point though. My issue isn't that the game has one particular "fault" or omission, it's that there appear to be a number of issues that for most other games would render them a frustrating disappointment. I know PD has a great pedigree in terms of handling and physics, but I find it hard to be sold on the whole package of GT5 or 6. Games like Racedriver GRID and NFS Shift (don't roll your eyes young man), while not simulators, provided great content and heaps of fun, energetic racing. The racing elements in games like GT and Forza are mediocre in my opinion, and while the cars selections are phenomenal, I eventually get bored. At least in a game like Forza 4, you get a great overall package - highly detailed cars (ALL cars, not just "premium") and customisation options, great audio quality, visual and mechanical damage etc. I'm not going to get Forza 5 because it seems like an indefensible step backwards in terms of content.