Grand Theft Auto IV Didn't Drive an 8 Year-Old to Murder

Doom972

New member
Dec 25, 2008
2,312
0
0
So it's completely legal there to have a gun in a child's reach? That's pretty much asking for disasters like this to happen, because apparently there are people there that aren't smart enough to safely store their guns unless the law tells them to. Not only was it in his reach, it was also loaded and I doubt it was even on safe mode.

Most kids wouldn't know if it's a toy or a real thing. He probably just played with it, like most other kids would do. The only person at fault here, is the "victim". Playing video games had nothing to do with it. Anyone who actually played violent video games as a kid can tell you the same. The vast majority of us didn't end up murdering someone.
 

Balkan

New member
Sep 5, 2011
211
0
0
I think that if you keep a gun near a kid, you should at least give him good gun discipline. The problem is that in the US every moron can get his hands on a gun, and a person who doesn't know how to properly use guns can't teach someone else.
When I was a kid, I accidently fired a rifle in my family's apartment. The incident could have been fatal if I wasn't thought never to point a firearm at a person. That's the most basic way to avoid these sorts of accidents. Of course, it was stupid of my father not to teach me how to check for rounds in the rifle, since when I thought it was empty. And he kept his guns into a locked safe, it was very rare for him to leave a rifle laying around. This shows that even a small mistake can be fatal and parents should NEVER leave leave loaded firearms unattended.
 

Varis

lp0 on fire
Feb 24, 2012
154
0
0
I'll have to jump in the bandwagon, so to speak. Excellent article, it didn't run circles around the subjects but met each topic head on with good points.

Indeed, I know I've played GTA since I was a wee lad but it never encouraged me in anyway to go and shoot someone with a real gun, killing in mind. I've played with toy guns and pretended to be shooting my little brother, though it was never anything "serious". I love my brother and he's still very much alive. We've never had a real gun in our household and the first time I ever touched one was a rifle, with which I shot a skeet disc. Under constant supervision by my stepfather and my mother. After I discharged the gun, I would've never ever aimed it at a person. The power behind it was simply so overwhelming that anyone would realize that if it hits flesh, ain't no one going to come out of that looking pretty.

Take the time to teach your kids about these things. If your under-aged child is allowed to play a game such as GTA or Saints Row or the like, explain what's happening. Let your child know of the consequences.

And keep the guns behind locks and unloaded. *nod*
 

verdant monkai

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,519
0
0
It annoys me that just because they dont understand it grown ups (am I allowed to use that term if I drive?) place a negative stigma on gaming because if gaming gets bashed nothing happens to them. The media seems to be inhabited by almost zero gamers and they are happy to point the finger as long as its not their hobby getting disparaged.

Its just a band wagon these sheep are leaping on. Hoping to feed the ignorant these flawed stories so that they can get recognition for their oh so very current knowledge and wonderful writing prowess. Eventually all these assholes will be dead, then there will be three kinds of people left.

Gamers
Those who have grown up with gaming but do not game themselves
Those who dont care.
 

Lopende Paddo

New member
Aug 26, 2004
128
0
0
Great article! Although we'll probably see a repeat of this situation within a year, it was nice to read an objective piece on the subject.
 

frobalt

New member
Jan 2, 2012
347
0
0
As insensitive as this sounds:

The gun was a .38 caliber pistol she owned.
The fact that it was her gun makes her eligible for a darwin award.

After all, if you leave a loaded gun in a place where a child can reach it and a child kills you with it, then you're an idiot.

You can say that, because of her age she might have forgotten about it or something like that, but if that's the case, then she probably shouldn't even own a gun as she clearly isn't fit to use it. After all, when someone gets old and is unable to drive anymore, you take their licence off them. Surely that should work for guns as well.

I can't help but wonder: Where did she even store this gun? I mean, this kid was able to get the gun and play around with it and shoot her in the back of the head without her noticing. To me, this shows that it wasn't hidden very well.

Another thing I can't help but wonder: In a country where guns are readily accessible, why are kids not taught about firearm safety from an early age? Either from their parents or at school. A kid being ignorant about this topic shouldn't be an excuse. The solution to this problem is to educate kids from an early age. I know it's grim, but if it stops stuff like this happening, surely it's worth it.

While I've sounded harsh in this post, I do sympathise for the family. I especially sympathise with the kid, for whom this will scar for the rest of his life. But I have absolutely no sympathy for the old woman. As far as I'm concerned, her death was her own fault.
 

Church185

New member
Apr 15, 2009
609
0
0
Agayek said:
So this article sparked a question for me:

What do you think about the supposition/argument that the game is responsible for the kid thinking the gun was a toy?

The question occurred to me while reading and I couldn't get a sense of what you thought about that, or what kind of counter argument (if any) you would pose to such a thing, and I'm rather curious.
I kind of understand where you are going with that, but I think it was more of a situation where the kid thought it was a toy gun, and less about him thinking real guns are toys. I hope that makes sense.
 

gargantual

New member
Jul 15, 2013
417
0
0
The violence or depiction of media-objectionable content, or the negative effects of over consumption is just extra fuel the news reports. They're in the business of digging up the faults of others for broadcast.

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, but under the media storms of causation behind gun violence, there is really a cultural tension between the established mainstream and the geek culture (heck even technology) that has historically brought computer games to the height where it stands.

They fostered a form of cultural "independence" from other exploited western mass media, pop, cultural and social traditions. The same way hip hop was looked down upon. It wasn't so much NWA, and Death Row, it was the level cultural empowerment it gave, and you know how 'The MAN' hates any type of competition unless he can puppet it out to make more money.
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
The problem is "We live in a gun nation" Where ever their is a school shooting, The NRA is right on it's heels to have an NRA Rally and the media is looking into video games or parents or something else to blame cause god forbid anyone mention "Gun Control." You don't need GTA, COD or any video games at this point for a kid to know the basics of " point gun pull trigger" and not know the real life outcome of it all.

The other hard to believe thing is, Kids are smart. You can have the most sheltered 5 year old in the world and give him a water gun or a gun that makes sounds and I'll tell you it won't be more then 15 minutes before they start "shooting things" Toy guns are one of the most popular children's toys.

Lastly, it's easy to believe the kid didn't know what he did. Parents hate teaching their kids about the hard life issues and death is one of them. Most don't explain it or outright lie like telling them pets ran away and so on. Letting a piece of entertainment (games or movies) try to teach them or getting their information from it is just wrong and usually wrong with what they came out with it with.


Also I'm glad someone else mentioned it to, Why aren't schools having a small side class early on about firearm safety? We get taught about drugs, about sex, why not? Something that can keep them from killing themselves or others and ruining their lives in something that wouldn't honestly take more then a school class lesson is more important then ever with school shootings and such.
 

Ravage

New member
Aug 24, 2013
46
0
0
Thing is there were a lot of schools I think around the 50's or so (I could be wrong on that) that had classes that taught firearm safety.

It's funny how liberals are so quick to blame guns. Thanks to them my country is destroyed, inside out. Of course that's a rant for another time. In relation to guns, they're pretty much the problem. Think gun control works? Look at Chicago. The state with I think the heaviest gun control and some of the most crime there. This is why we need guns, not only that but from tyranny as well which is why the Second Amendment was written.

I'm happy to see intelligence from The Escapist community, compared to IGN and GameSpot, such idiocy on those sites, and from the editors as well. I think I'll like it here :)
 

Monster_user

New member
Jan 3, 2010
200
0
0
Eve Charm said:
The problem is "We live in a gun nation" Where ever their is a school shooting, The NRA is right on it's heels to have an NRA Rally and the media is looking into video games or parents or something else to blame cause god forbid anyone mention "Gun Control."
"Gun Control" is nearly the same thing this article was talking about, just in a different wrapping. "Gun Control" is simply "GRM". GRM = DRM. You're a gamer, you know what DRM is, you therefore know what GRM is. Why are you arguing for DRM?

First of all is that "Gun Control"/"Gun Rights Management" doesn't control guns. Aside from fingerprint recognition, or voice recognition, ala 007 Skyfall, or Lost in Space (1998), few other measures of "Gun Control" will actually do any good whatsoever, and would only serve to passify the sheeple/lemmings.

There are already laws requiring individuals to aquire permits to carry (like a drivers license), which require training on how to operate a firearm. There is also a waiting period between the date of purchase, and when the gun can actually be given to the buyer. Perhaps the permits should require re-training every five years, but once somebody has already purchased a firearm and a clip, will they have any need to renew their permits to even relearn about the training requirements?

There are also the black markets, and those who purchase guns for gang members. No amount of control will prevent killers/gangsters/mobsters/drug dealers from arming themselves. This is just more DRM nonsense. The criminals have fewer hassles, more freedom, and the honest customer is punished.

Parents are so irresponsible as to buy children "M" rated games, "R" rated movies, "Parental Advisory" music, and leave loaded guns lying around, loaded and in reach. What types of control methods would actually prevent this level of irresponsibility? When these people are already "honest" citizens, when they always pass background checks, and when they are already willing to jump through hoops to give minors access to restricted merchandise, what good will more hoops actually do?

* I don't want to loose my right to own a firearm, just because there are a few idiots who don't properly obey the rules and secure their weapons.

* I don't want to loose my right to drive, just because there are idiots who don't obey the rules and text and drive, or drink and drive.

* I don't want to loose my right to bear children, just because there are idiots who can't raise mature and responsible adults.

* I don't want to loose my freedoms, just because there are irresponsible "adults" who don't respect the rules. Especially when the bad guys don't loose any freedoms whatsoever.
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
Gun control is probably to broad of a term but ya you know what? It's a hassle for me to wear a seatbelt but hell I have to do it or risk a ticket. I like that you mention the word idiot, How about an IQ test before giving people things that can kill people or themselves. How about you don't have a place to store your gun or ammo, you don't get one. You don't have a lock box or a cabinet no gun for you till you get one. If you needed the gun fast it'd be a few extra seconds to unlock a box then take it out.

If I have to wear a seatbelt and still have my freedoms, you can keep your guns locked up and unloaded and still have your freedoms and not get anyone killed.
 

NearLifeExperience

New member
Oct 21, 2012
281
0
0
A truly chilling incident with a sickening after-math.

"Welp, we have no other lead than the whole videogames-promotes-violence bandwagon, so let's just go with that."
 

Psychobabble

. . . . . . . .
Aug 3, 2013
525
0
0
CriticKitten said:
Psychobabble said:
He's EIGHT. I'd say he almost assuredly can't tell the difference between a loaded handgun and a toy except that one is heavier.

As to the rest:

1) There have been countless psychological studies confirming that video games do not directly correlate to violence. And we're talking about an eight-year-old child, anyways, I rather doubt the game deeply affected his psyche.

2) The parents in question bought their child an M-rated video game. The entire purpose of the rating system is to prevent children from gaining access to objectionable material, and the parents circumvented that. That makes it the parents' fault (or granny's, take your pick), period.

3) The child in question was able to gain access to a loaded firearm. Again, that's the parents' fault.

4) Toy guns are a popular male toy, even at that age group. There are a number of squirt guns, toy guns, even cap guns advertised to children of young ages. The child may simply have thought the gun was a toy like the ones from stores. There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he's "aping" behavior from the video game beyond your own presumptions.

5) These same presumptions have been made in the past about every other form of major media known to man. Everything from comic books to television to movies to books have, at one point or another, been blamed for violence and crime. The difference is that at least back in the "olden days", people were generally smart enough to blame the parents for giving their kids access to crap that's way beyond their age limit in the first place.

Stop blaming this on the video game and place blame squarely where it belongs: on negligent parents. GTA had nothing to do with this death and should assume zero responsibility in this case. I'm honestly rather tired of people implying that it's somehow the video game's fault. Keeping a gun in an unsafe place should at the very least slap the parents with criminal charges, if not cost them their child. And the fact that they bought their eight-year-old a game clearly rated for adults shows just how much they care about him (not at all), so it's probably for the better if the child is moved into a more responsible and loving home.

1) There have been countless studies showing the exact opposite as well. Oddly enough they've been universally lambasted as ignorant anti-game propaganda by the games industry and gamers alike. But of course when a study says games aren't at fault those studies are trumpeted from the heavens as the gospel, without one iota of skepticism. Media bias is still media bias regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

2) Please explain to me why if these games cannot in any way provoke violent behavior in children, why a ratings system for these games is necessary at all. And before you say language and other adult themes, such as scenes of a sexual nature, why would they have any aberrant impact on child behavior if violence does not. It seems odd that one aspect can be totally harmless yet others dangerous.

The rest, nothing but strawman arguments to cement your position in the exact same manner as you blame the media for skewing this particular news story. I.E. "Its true because 'I' say it is true, because I so badly wish it to be true."
 

Monster_user

New member
Jan 3, 2010
200
0
0
Eve Charm said:
Gun control is probably to broad of a term but ya you know what? It's a hassle for me to wear a seatbelt but hell I have to do it or risk a ticket. If I have to wear a seatbelt and still have my freedoms, you can keep your guns locked up and unloaded and still have your freedoms and not get anyone killed.
An excellent example. Seatbelts save lives, and securing weapons save lives. Though both are a hassle, both should be done.

Eve Charm said:
I like that you mention the word idiot, How about an IQ test before giving people things that can kill people or themselves. How about you don't have a place to store your gun or ammo, you don't get one. You don't have a lock box or a cabinet no gun for you till you get one.
Great ideas. I'm sure the NRA would agree with the cabinet/lock box idea.

Eve Charm said:
If you needed the gun fast it'd be a few extra seconds to unlock a box then take it out.
There is a problem with your solution here.

Little old ladies, like the one in the article, often have difficulty unlocking those boxes. It would take you, or a child, mere seconds to unlock the box. It could take the grandmother 15 minutes. Then there is the additional time of trying to figure out which way to turn the ammo casing, and how to insert it. Finally there is the near impossible task of cocking the weapon.

These little old ladies may be no taller than a 10 to 14 year old child. So in order to get the weapon out of reach, they have to put it out of their own reach.

These little old ladies want their guns because they are afraid of having thieves break into their homes, or worse. Thieves often target them, because they are easy targets.

The original problem is that the grandmother did not feel safe at home. Yet a gun made her feel safe. The second problem is that the grandmother felt safe allowing a child to run unsupervised in a home with a loaded weapon.

Psychobabble said:
2) Please explain to me why if these games cannot in any way provoke violent behavior in children, why a ratings system for these games is necessary at all. And before you say language and other adult themes, such as scenes of a sexual nature, why would they have any aberrant impact on child behavior if violence does not. It seems odd that one aspect can be totally harmless yet others dangerous.
Our ratings systems are designed to solve two problems.

One is that there is material which should not be introduced too early in a child's development. Two is that there are differing opinions on what, and when a child could be introduced to certain material, if at all.

"K-A", and "E" represent the least objectionable material.

"E10+" and "T" represent material that is generally fun, but not everybody agrees that it is appropriate, especially for smaller children who haven't learned self-control, etc.

"M" games are generally considered to have unpleasant material, or display actions parents want their children to avoid, sometimes until they are mature, sometimes avoid it entirely

It is known that children like to emulate others, including characters in games. Young children likely have not developed a strong center, a strong notion of what is right and what it wrong. So there is worry that actions in the game will lead to planting "seeds" of corruption, or would otherwise interfere with the ethics the parents are trying to instill in the child. These are impressionable children, who have not fully developed their own identity, and are therefore susceptible to any "teachings".

Sexual Content is not age appropriate because most young children consider "flirtatious" behavior unsettling. In the "T" category, Teenagers are usually not mentally mature enough, or financially secure enough to raise a baby to be a responsible adult.

When young children play violent games, they may see violence as fun, or as a valid solution. A concern is that they might be more quick to adopt violent solutions as an adult, such as pre-emptive strikes by the military.

Yes, individually, each item can be overcome with a proper upbringing. However if the child is overwhelmed with contrary information, then the child will have trouble even "hearing" his/her parent. So some kind of advisory to minimize objectionable content is necessary. A parent can't teach a child everything within the first four years of life, even after that there are 16 years of education expected.
 

Kargathia

New member
Jul 16, 2009
1,657
0
0
Agayek said:
Robert Rath said:
Grand Theft Auto IV Didn't Drive an 8 Year-Old to Murder

This was a tragedy, from start to finish, but the association with GTA was a product of the media - not of reality. Here's what happened.

Read Full Article
So this article sparked a question for me:

What do you think about the supposition/argument that the game is responsible for the kid thinking the gun was a toy?

The question occurred to me while reading and I couldn't get a sense of what you thought about that, or what kind of counter argument (if any) you would pose to such a thing, and I'm rather curious.
Kids considering sticks as swords, and bent sticks as guns is something that is so deeply ingrained in us that no further impetus is required.

Give any 8 year old anywhere a toy gun, and he'll know it goes "pew pew". Thinking that GTA was the first to suggest the notion of toy guns is rather ridiculous, especially in louisiana. Chances are that kid has already seen more real guns handled at 8 than I have at 21.

This is not to say, however, that playing GTA didn't give him the urge to go play with toy guns right then and there - much akin that watching cooking shows on tv might make you hungry.
But if "reminding a kid he can play with toy guns" is a criminal offence, then excuse me while I go and stock up on facepalms.
 

Eternal Visitor

New member
Sep 14, 2010
27
0
0
I'm pretty sure that the first gun-like object I ever held was a pellet rifle, it was my cousin's, and I was given a complete safety talk about it. the first time I held a REAL handgun, I stupidly chambered a round and the thing worried the hell out of me, because I knew that in that state, any number of things could go so horribly wrong. I know it's not a perfect solution, but kids really need to be taught that guns of any kind (BB guns, pellet guns, and real firearms) are very dangerous things, and not to be played with unless you know EXACTLY what you're doing.
 

Gronk

New member
Jun 24, 2013
100
0
0
The Sheriff's Department's statement has a number of problems, not least that it misspells "PlayStation 3."
Really? Really? You're using THAT as an argument? That they misspellt a word? Are you 9 years old?