Great Old Games you want to play but feels too dated?

shrekfan246

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Whenever threads like this come around, I marvel at the people who bring up games I love.

- Said every fan of Deus Ex, Baldur's Gate, or Fallout.

Actually, funnily enough, after two or three tries I've finally managed to break past the initial barrier of both Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate, though the latter is still proving to be a bit trying on my patience. Combat just really doesn't feel good, and I'm bad at it too so I always end up needing to stop for a rest at the most obnoxious times. I'm honestly more keen on the combat of Fallout because it feels better-suited to the style of game those CRPGs are trying to be (see also: XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, and Divinity: Original Sin).

Uh... oh, I've got one.

Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain. I'd love to play it, but it's nigh on impossible to get it running on Windows 7 in my experience. What? It counts.

Also, any game with tank controls. I didn't like them fifteen years ago, I still don't like them today.
 

Xeros

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Shaun Kennedy said:
The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall
SoreWristed said:
"...the original Deus Ex" "...the archaic pc controls."
Those, along with System Shock 1. I just ..DOS. I can't do it anymore. My modern sensibilities have overwritten the old ones, and I just can't go back.
 

EHKOS

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Planescape Torment and Fallout 1&2. I can't stand isometric views and the Fallouts have that old difficulty to them that's too hard for someone who started out on consoles in '96. I guess we can throw in Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick or whatever that Trokia game was called.

My basic complaints are usually "It's haaaaaard, the character moves too slow, why do I have to click on places to make him go places, I miss my analogue stick!"
 

Fishyash

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Looking at the thread it seems to be mainly RPGs and strategy games. They tend to be the most complex games and older games don't really convey their mechanics that well unless they were very simple (like arcade games).

Anyways, Planescape: Torment got me really interested in older RPGs and I had a fantastic time with it. Same with other isometric RPGs I've played (Arcanum and Fallout). Ultima IV was free on GoG, and being such an influential RPG I gave it a shot.

The game has astounding depth. However I really don't have the patience to delve into its wonderful world, and being so old I had a lot of trouble with how the mechanics are conveyed. I honestly think I'd need to check a walkthrough at least a few times before I get used to how the game works.

I also tried Wizardry 6. That game isn't even very complicated but I was spending more time than I wanted to figuring out how to navigate the menus efficiently. And then there's the fact there's no map. I've been spoiled by automaps now so I would rather not draw them or spend a long time wondering where the fuck to go.
 

Ihateregistering1

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Pretty much any old RTS games before they actually started figuring out efficient RTS controls.

If you ever play any of the old-school RTS games, a lot of them lacked things that we now take for granted, like the ability to shift-click to add or subtract units from groups, attack move commands, being able to deselect units easily, etc. Hell, some don't even let you form groups. It just makes them a nightmare to play now. I can get over the graphics, but frustrating controls just kill me.

Strangely, I have an easier time playing old school 2D FPS games (Duke Nukem, Shadow Warrior, Blood, etc.) than old-school 3D FPS games (around the Quake era). The hand-drawn sprites just look so much better than the "5 boxes with a head on top" blocky models that they started with.
 

BlackBark

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I'm quite surprised people find it hard to play Deus Ex. I actually played Invisible War first and only played Deus Ex afterwards (which is probably why I seem to be one of the few people who actually enjoyed IW), but I still think it's a classic game and I do go back to replay it sometimes. Obviously Human Revolution wins in terms of graphics, but there are a lot of things about the first game (and even IW) that are definitely superior.



raeior said:
Little Big Adventure: Played through LBA 2 two times or so and maybe through 2/3 of LBA 1. I always wanted to play them again but the controls are pretty horrible, targeting is horrible, the maps are huge and it takes forever to get from one end of the world to the other (in LBA 1 at least).
I never played LBA 1, but LBA 2 is one of my favourite childhood games. I tried to play it again recently and that was difficult to get through again. The controls are pretty bad and the gameplay can be incredibly annoying. I don't know if you remember the part where you have to escape the prison on Zeelich and you go into that room with three guards...they always got me into a corner and it was impossible to break out of their endless loop of attacks. Anyway, I still think it's a great game and I really enjoyed the characters and game world...if only they would make an LBA 3 with improved controls, I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
 

thoughtwrangler

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There are a few mentions of Planescape: Torment on here, and I can totally understand. It won't alleviate ALL of the old-school feeling from it, but running some of the high-res mods can help make the game MUCH more playable.

There's a great one by GhostDog (IIRC) that expands the resolution to modern monitor sizes, and another that fixes the UI so in-game cinematics, etc. play better (in a letterboxed format).

There are also cool gameplay mods like stacking rings, etc. that make inventory management feel MUCH more modern.
 

Mutant1988

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Pyrian said:
What's so archaic about Deus Ex's control scheme?
Nothing really. What makes that game archaic for me is the fact that font size isn't scaled independently from the game resolution.

That means that if I run the game in the native resolution for my screen, it's 100% impossible to read the text. Or at least painful.

I would probably be playing that if I could fix that one issue. I have tried lowering the resolution, but then the graphics bug me instead. And I'm not even picky about graphics, but I'd really like to be able to run games at as high a resolution as possible.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Lol, that would include most of the "greatest games of all time" that get consistently name-dropped, such as:
-Earthbound
-Final Fantasy VI
-Chrono Trigger
-Mega Man
-Baldur's Gate 1 & 2
-Icewind Dale
-Planescape Torment
-Neverwinter Nights
-Fallout 1 & 2
-Thief 1 and 2
-System Shock 2
-Dungeon Keeper 2
-Starfox 64
-Most Legend of Zeldas

And many more. I grew up on the Xbox(the original) and whilst games from that era definitely have not aged that well, I am even less eager to dive into the first days of 3D rendering :X

Though with the RPGs, the issue is also more mechanical, especially with the Japanese ones since my only point of reference for JRPGs is Persona 4.
 

HardkorSB

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Goldeneye on the N64.
It was cool to play in the 90's but even then, as soon as Duke Nukem and Quake II got released on the system (both with immensely better controls), I stopped playing it.
 

Elfgore

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Morrowind. It has not aged well at all, but I do believe it has the most content of any Elder Scrolls game. I've tried installing the restoration mode once before and it completely bugged up, causing me to completely reboot my PC. I may give it a go in the future once again and give it a go.
 

The Madman

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Goldeneye and a couple other early fps games including the original System Shock.

It's not the visuals or the level design or difficulty that turn me away, it's a mixture of the game controls and nostalgia. I remember some friends and I got the old N64 hooked up and played some Goldeneye not so long ago and... yeah, it wasn't nearly as fun as we remembered mainly because the controls were so unintuitive. We switched to other games before our memory of the fun times became too tainted by modern expectations. Same with System Shock 1 (2 still plays just fine today I find), I prefer to just preserve the good memory of the game I have.

Other than those though I can't think of anything. I still play games like Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, Thief and the like regularly. It actually makes me sad to see names like those legends pop up so often in topics like this one; so many people missing out on such great gaming experiences.
 

Quazimofo

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Kingjackl said:
Too many to list. I couldn't finish System Shock 2, Knights of the Old Republic and the original Fallouts because I found them too dated. The same has kept me from Planescape Torment, which is another old classic I'd like to play.

Strangely enough, the one exception to this rule was the original Deus Ex.
Funnily enough I couldn't stand the original Deus Ex for how dated it felt, but Loved the original fallout games (even after beating 3 and new vegas), and enjoyed KotOR quite a bit.

I have heard nothing but good things about baldur's gate, but I just can't get past that UI. The tiny tiny screen makes everything feel like I'm trying to stare through binoculars ever so slightly too far in front of my eyes. Baldurs gate 2 to a lesser extent, but then it still just feels dated in other ways. I can at least partially blame this on supreme commander and Sins of a Solar Empire which let you zoom smoothly from eye-level with the units to the whole map; love that camera feature and wish more games had it.

Also, age of empires 2. The factions all feel too similar and the aesthetic grates on my eyes now. It's a shame, because I greatly enjoyed it in years past, but now I just can't stand it. If only Age of empires online had been a single player game, that would have been wonderful.
 

Tuesday Night Fever

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For me it'd be Planescape: Torment. I picked it up during a sale on GoG and was pretty excited to play it, since I missed it during it's heyday. I just couldn't get into it. I put a few hours into it, wasn't having any fun, and regretfully had to give up.

It's not even like I have any sort of problem with isometric RPGs. I consider Fallout and Fallout 2 to be among my favorite games and I still play them from time to time. I grew up with stuff like this.

ADDED:
I also bailed on Freespace 2. I got to the part where you have to escort a repair ship out to a stranded ship and defend them. I flew around taking out the enemy fighters swarming the area for a while without too much trouble. I was on Ventrilo at the time with the friend who recommended the game to me, and I asked him how long I was supposed to keep this up since I was beginning to think the mission was bugged. "You're supposed to let them destroy the ship for the mission to progress" is what he told me. I glance at my objective... defend the ship. Nowhere does it say, or even hint, that I'm supposed to just let them waltz in and destroy my allies. The game never expected me to successfully defend the ship, and as such my mission objective was a lie. That really rubbed me the wrong way, that the game was designed so that I'm capable of succeeding but am still forced to fail. That's bullshit.
 
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Tuesday Night Fever said:
The game never expected me to successfully defend the ship, and as such my mission objective was a lie. That really rubbed me the wrong way, that the game was designed so that I'm capable of succeeding but am still forced to fail. That's bullshit.
this bugs the FUCK out of me when it happens in games.

I can't think of one perfectly off the top of my head..maybe god of war had one moment like this? idk, it usually causes pure rage whenever I come across a moment like it, because I tend to quick-load like a ************ until I can beat it, wasting anywhere from an hour or more in pure frustration to learn I should've just died in the first place.

If they REALLY want to pull that card, just do a fucking cutscene for christ sakes that pulls some sort of deus ex where the villain gets away (happens in games anyways when a certain character is supposed to be "too strong" for you right now, even though you wipe the floor with them in combat.)

OT: planescape torment...I haven't put a GREAT deal of patience into trying to play it, but damn if that UI and setup isn't ugly as all hell, I put maybe an hour in before I was getting bored as hell, but I"m sure i'll get around to it one of these days.

freespace 2 is a good mention though, I have it in my gog install folders somewhere, but it just always felt so...idk, it rubbed me the wrong way after the first mission or so, even with the flight stick.
 

Ihateregistering1

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Tuesday Night Fever said:
I also bailed on Freespace 2. I got to the part where you have to escort a repair ship out to a stranded ship and defend them. I flew around taking out the enemy fighters swarming the area for a while without too much trouble. I was on Ventrilo at the time with the friend who recommended the game to me, and I asked him how long I was supposed to keep this up since I was beginning to think the mission was bugged. "You're supposed to let them destroy the ship for the mission to progress" is what he told me. I glance at my objective... defend the ship. Nowhere does it say, or even hint, that I'm supposed to just let them waltz in and destroy my allies. The game never expected me to successfully defend the ship, and as such my mission objective was a lie. That really rubbed me the wrong way, that the game was designed so that I'm capable of succeeding but am still forced to fail. That's bullshit.
That's really, really strange to hear. It's been a long time since I played Freespace 2, but one of the things I really liked about it was that there were certain missions where you were supposed to succeed, but even if you failed in some of the objectives, the game would keep going on to the next mission. It gave it a more realistic feel than the usual "you have to complete everything or the war is over", it actually made you feel like you were in a war, where you'll win some battles and lose some.

Anyway, like I said, haven't played the game in probably a decade so I'm sure that's one that I forgot about (and I just sucked too much to actually successfully defend the ship).
 

shintakie10

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Gotta echo the Planetscape Torment and older Fallout titles.

People can call it dumbing down all they want, but I happen to like that shit is actually explained in games nowadays. Playing older RPGs I always wonder how the hell anyway is supposed to just figure this out, then I remember those were the days when instruction manuals were practically books that you were expected to read and memorize before you were allowed to enjoy the game. That's cool and all, but I prefer my hand-holding thank you very much.

Speaking of hand-holding, Deus Ex as others have said. The lack of a map, having absolutely no clue how anything interacted with anything else without just figuring it out on your own, not having a quest log (or even a friggin journal) to tell me what I should be doing now drove me batty. I spent 2 hours in that game just tryin to figure out where I'm supposed to go. I still haven't figure that out.
 

Dragonzeanse

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Hmmm, this could be a good thread.

Lately - for better or worse - I have had an extreme desire to visit some of the older games I have never experienced before my nostalgia glasses get too heavy and fall right off my face like a VirtualBoy without a stand. Suffice it to say, 2014 left me feeling cold at least, and snowed in a condemned tenement at worst. I've seen what I perceive as astonishingly overrated quite a few times, at this point. So-called "classics" that most of my friends played when they were kids, but don't seem to have really played in recent years or simply forgive them for what they accomplished at the time. When the word "classic" passes your lips, you shouldn't have to follow it with an asterisk saying "at the time."

Allow me to clarify with the following examples.

LEGEND OF DRAGOON:
Perhaps it's my fault for not properly experiencing this game on a tube television at properly Playstation resolution. I don't care. It's 2014. There are genuinely good remasters of games that have helped us preserve what will be lost one day, but god forbid you tell the seething legions of the Peoples' Anti-Remaster Party of Absurdistan. They had to play the game when it was shit and so do you. In this particular case, it manifests as a glaring gameplay issue realized by - believe it or not - the graphics.

"Look at this wimp over here," you might say, "blaming the game for sucking at it." Legend of Dragoon shares a mechanic with Paper Mario, in that your attacks and moves have certain actions required for you to perform and execute increased damage. The player feedback necessary to pull off this maneuver is usually squares that spiral around the screen and require you to press X at the proper time to continue the attack's chain in order to do extra damage. Sometimes there's a counter-attack. Regardless, this visual feedback presents massive ghosting issues on modern video, which makes it extremely difficult to time this properly. I know this is Legend of Dragoon's problem because you can still pick up the original Paper Mario - from the same generation of consoles - and not face this issue with its clean, stylized-but-efficient UI. If I'm going to be able to enjoy Legend of Dragoon, I'm sorry Sony Defense Force, it's time for a remaster.

I might have been able to truck through this issue and mastered it, but to be completely honest, I wasn't gripped by any other part of the gameplay, and the story - while a breath of fresh air compared to some modern JRPGs - was not endearing itself to me. It's not a timeless classic, otherwise I'd be able to pick it up and enjoy it these days. I know this because I've been playing Parasite Eve and I'm astonished by how aggressively risk-taking it was compared to a lot of JRPGs I've played. Sure, it wasn't much of one, but that's exactly why I liked it. There are games that do things differently than Legend of Dragoon, and games that do what it does better. I see no reason to bother here unless you just want more JRPGs. It's assembled well if you can seek an obsolete TV and system to play it on. PSN has it for sale, but I don't know if it was upscaled. If it was, the ghosting will likely be present.

CHRONO TRIGGER:
Oh, now it's just obvious I'm trolling, isn't it? Another classic JRPG? I must be biased, me and my love for Final Fantasy 9, my positive acknowledgment of Final Fantasy 10, my burning passion for Parasite Eve's accomplishments, and my obsession with the Persona games. No, truth be told, I grew up with JRPGs - but not very many. Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Xenogears, Suikoden, Grandia, Skies of Arcadia, and indeed, the earlier Persona games and Final Fantasy 6, were among JRPGs I did not play when I was younger, and still haven't played. I picked up Chrono Trigger over at a friend's house and played it for about five hours. Perhaps I'm missing something by judging this game quite early, but I found it to be a perfectly average - perhaps even above-average - JRPG that successfully pulled off the tactical depth of a JRPG and provided an interesting story without doing much else. Perhaps just accomplishing what it set out to do is exactly what makes this game so beloved, but I saw missed opportunities. Character positioning, for example, seemed to be - like in Final Fantasy X-2 - purely for show save for a few enemy attacks that might have exploited it. You don't get to move around, yet the enemy can saunter about and change their positioning? I'd like to be able to use that, too. It was the natural next step for JRPGs, I feel, and Chrono Trigger missed it.

That's not really why I dislike this game, though. I dislike it because, well, frankly... it's not THAT good. Have you ever picked up a game that was new at the time and played it and thought it was satisfying, but had no strong urge to go pick it back up again? That's what Chrono Trigger is. It's basically a Suda 51 game in that you don't really need to look back at it after playing it. Okay, so there's multiple endings, but I never liked that idea in video games, like, ever. Multiple endings are so rarely satisfying, as I just think to myself "what about those other endings I haven't gotten to enjoy? Maybe I should start up a new game and play those." I'm not pleased, because I know I haven't actually completed the game. It's one of those experimental innovations in video gaming that I've always thought needs to die. This so rarely works. One of the appeals of a lot of western RPGs is playing the game differently a second time, which is the notorious cause of that so-called excuse: "I haven't finished the game yet, but I have made five different characters already." While this certainly presents its own challenges, providing multiple approaches in a game is the sort of depth that makes you want to genuinely revisit it. Many games fail to do it well. People are fans of the Elder Scrolls games exactly because they can do this. This, however, is the reason I can sometimes accept multiple endings. You had a completely different character with a completely different skill-set and (if you're properly roleplaying ;)) a different moral compass. A JRPG like Persona is capable of this as well. But the standard for video games is to have one minor choice in a game or a god-awful binary moral choice system that restricts your gameplay because you want to pursue the most climactic of endings or the mode of gameplay that fits you, the player, best. I'm not going to pretend I know what Chrono Trigger does, but after seeing the status quo from both old and new games providing such lazy incentives for multiple playthroughs, and the fact that Chrono Trigger appears to be a fairly linear JRPG, trust that I won't hold my breath until I know for sure. There are a lot of video games to play, and I just can't give that time to many JRPGs that don't grip me fast.

SONIC CD:
Take my opinion for what it's worth, because I'm not entirely certain I'm the target audience for Genesis platformers. I enjoyed Freedom Planet, but that's an indie game from last year that was inspired by the Sonic games. I grew up with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, but upon reflection, I think nostalgia is really the only reason I could truly say I "enjoyed" them. I certainly didn't like the levels without Sonic (the absolutely lowest part of either of the Adventure games were the Big the Cat levels, followed by Rouge's Mad Space from SA2). So I figured, "The 2D Sonic games probably got it right." I kind of liked Sonic Generations as a guilty pleasure, but I honestly think it was still too much of a mess to even be called a "step in the right direction" for Sonic. It was more like accidental... not quite "genius" but more like a village idiot that could provide you with some harmless fun.

Sonic CD does not live up to its praise. It's an extremely short game, which ironically manages to be its best characteristic, as anything that isn't a boss battle in that game is incredibly BORING, and coming from someone who actually has ADD, playing a Sonic game should not be boring. Have you ever encountered someone that says that Sonic games are all about "speed" and not the "platforming"? Sonic CD is the perfect linchpin in your rebuttal. Levels zoom by so fast that I barely have a chance to appreciate the platforming bits. As I speed through levels, pressing jump and somehow making the next leap of faith I had to make at high-speed, I get the impression that maybe it's similar to a rhythm game, except what's a rhythm game where I don't know the rhythm? There's so little actual platforming, so very little substance that makes games like Super Mario World such breakout hits. This game's cheap attempts to have multi-world gameplay only serve to pad out an experience that I could barely care to enjoy to begin with. It feels like it wasn't made to be enjoyed in a single playthrough, but to be beaten after acquiring arbitrary bonus collectibles in the form of Time Stones. These multiple worlds actually make the game far longer, at a total of 70 levels according to Sonic Wikia's entry on the game. But I don't even want to explore the slightly-different levels. I think the only thing that could earn less of my interest than a boring level is a boring level that's been reskinned and called a "new level." This game might have seemed amazing in its day, but next to the massive libraries that have been built up since Sonic CD's debut - including platformers that all but crush it deftly - I see little reason to keep bringing up Sonic CD when mentioning the "best Sonic game." For all I know, that could just mean the shiniest of turds.

THE ELDER SCROLLS III: MORROWIND:
This is a very weird one. The first Elder Scrolls game I ever played was Oblivion, but the first one I ever played extensively was actually Skyrim. I don't want to criticize the actual game so much as I want to criticize the fanbase that has made newer games virtually impossible to enjoy simply because it doesn't measure up to their nostalgic wonder. I wish Morrowind were a game I would have grown up with, as I knew it existed at the time and frankly, I think I would have enjoyed it thoroughly. I have a friend who I almost want to stop talking to about video games entirely bnecause I'm sick of his opinions on how amazing Morrowind is, even if I think Skyrim is a badly streamlined game compared to Oblivion, which I have glimpsed. I would like to have a rebuttal, or perhaps even better, I would like to enjoy Morrowind for all its depth and complexity. The problem? Bethesda never seemed to get any better with QA.

I don't merely say this because the game has a lot of glitches. Actually, the only glitch I've encountered is one that prevents me from playing. After about 15 minutes of playing, the audio bugs out and infinitely loops a split second, only for the game to crash when I attempt to transition maps. I've diagnosed this issue with the help of Google to possibly my Xonar DG sound card. Understandably, the game doesn't play nicely with modern hardware, but that's my point.

Games go obsolete. Like it or not, there are some things we enjoy now that are going to look pitiful when we're older, and there may even be games in the future that blow our minds compared to years like 2014 that merely promised and failed to. We'll be complaining about tank-like controls to our grave from games like Resident Evil. This is why remasters, why post-launch support, are pivotal to a game's survival. I hold no ill will against Morrowind and for all I know, it could be fantastic. Signs point to it likely being enjoyable for me. Unfortunately, we have to come to grips with the fact that technology needs to be updated in order to remain relevant, and video games are technology. Silent Hill 2's fog is a good example, as it was made possible with the Playstation 2's technology, but the translation over to modern systems was less than compatible, resulting in the malfunction of one of the most important aspects of the atsmopheric horror game. This could have been made possible with new technology, and regardless of where you stand on the Silent Hill HD Collection debacle which I don't wish to get dragged into, Silent Hill 2 suffered on modern systems. But do you want to preserve that game and make it playable so that we can demonstrate to others why horror in video games has been going through an awkward phase? Do you want people that never experienced it to enjoy it again? This is the beauty of post-launch support, even so many years after its launch, whether it be something as innocuous as being sold on PSN/XBL or even getting a complete remastering.

Older games sometimes used technological limitations to their advantage, so I understand that translating to new hardware would be something of a challenge, but I am for the preservation of actual classics in video gaming. Morrowind is the only example of one of these games that I couldn't get "in to" because it's less than friendly with present-day technology, even if it's just a sound card. People had an even worse issue with Grim Fandango and Dungeon Keeper, as I understand it. Now they're made available to new generations to enjoy through remastering and simply selling on a digital storefront like GOG. Holding a game hostage to outdated systems is probably the worst disservice you could possibly do to a game you love, especially as you try to suggest that anything new can't hold a candle to it, and Morrowind stands as that example. Skyrim may have a lot of game-breaking glitches, but at least Bethesda and their customers can find solutions for that game that can be fixed. Googling "Morrowind crash fixes" isn't going to yield nearly as many results. Likewise, games I can still enjoy despite appearing horribly outdated like Deus Ex are in need of SOME level of modernization.

Again, I don't hate Morrowind, nor do I even dislike it at all. I have no opinion; it just keeps crashing. When I do get it working, I'll probably enjoy it, but I feel this aside was important when discussing new players playing old games. It's a relevant discussion that needs to take place among retro gaming circles, especially when people still see "HD Remaster" as a cash-in. Maybe if you're Konami, it is.

You may now PM me to tell me that I need to git gud at old video games.
 

Tuesday Night Fever

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Ihateregistering1 said:
That's really, really strange to hear. It's been a long time since I played Freespace 2, but one of the things I really liked about it was that there were certain missions where you were supposed to succeed, but even if you failed in some of the objectives, the game would keep going on to the next mission. It gave it a more realistic feel than the usual "you have to complete everything or the war is over", it actually made you feel like you were in a war, where you'll win some battles and lose some.

Anyway, like I said, haven't played the game in probably a decade so I'm sure that's one that I forgot about (and I just sucked too much to actually successfully defend the ship).
It's a pretty early mission. I hadn't been playing the game too long before it came up. I'll probably give the game another go eventually, but at the time it just really bugged me. If the game is going to present an apparently winnable scenario to me, then spit in my face for trying to win... it called into question every single future objective in the game and what other dirty tricks they were going to try to pull for the sake of their narrative. If I go back to the game down the line, it's going to be purely for that narrative and I'm going to have to just try to be apathetic toward the gameplay objectives.

I'm fine with a game allowing you to progress past a failure and adjusting things afterward to address it. That's actually pretty cool - assuming the player was able to also succeed too. Like gmaverick019 above said... if forcing the player to give up and fail in order to progress is the gimmick you want to use in your game, just make it a cutscene. Don't present a scenario to players that forces them to fail. It's incredibly immersion-breaking to me.

shintakie10 said:
Speaking of hand-holding, Deus Ex as others have said. The lack of a map, having absolutely no clue how anything interacted with anything else without just figuring it out on your own, not having a quest log (or even a friggin journal) to tell me what I should be doing now drove me batty. I spent 2 hours in that game just tryin to figure out where I'm supposed to go. I still haven't figure that out.
Deus Ex does have a journal. Open the inventory screen and you'll see a bunch of tabs at the top. Click on the one labeled "Goals/Notes" and it'll display your primary/secondary objectives in the area as well as notes that auto-fill with any computer logins/door codes/important information/misc. that you happen to encounter from data cubes/conversations/newspapers/etc. You can also create your own notes on that screen if there's something you want to remember that doesn't auto-fill, and you can edit all of the auto-filled notes if you want to add to them or shorten them. I actually thought it was one of the better "quest log" features I've seen in a game.

Some of the levels do provide you with maps too. They appear under the "Images" tab since they're presented as like reconnaissance photos. I don't think it's all of them though, and they're admittedly not particularly useful.

EDIT:
Just remembered that Deus Ex was also released on the PS2 a couple years later as Deus Ex: The Conspiracy. I have no idea if the PS2 version's Goals/Notes screen is anything like the PC version. Presumably the ability to edit things was removed, but I have no idea.