Ground Zeroes Rape Apologists Baffle Me

[Eclectic Dreck]

Even in Peace Walker, Paz was at least 20-ish. I forget why but she was pretending to be 16 for some reason or another. Not planning on talking about the difference between how someone looks and their actual age but Paz has never been "underage" in any game in the series.

I'm just going to have to call you on this though not necessarily because what your saying is wrong but the problem with this mentality. The problem, you see, is that telling me someone is a certain age and then showing me someone who appears to be substantially younger is a problem. You don't arrive at that aesthetic by accident - it was carefully crafted to look exactly like that. And what it looks like is a girl who I'd bet money is a few years shy of 18 at best.

This same nonsense plays out regularly in video games. The Asari in Mass Effect aren't female according to the game and yet every single one of them appears to be built more or less like a human female between 20 and 35 years old. They're also all voiced like females and the most notable one in the series dresses and acts in a sterotypically feminine way throughout the series. Tera pulls the same thing with the Elin who are allegedly hundreds of years old and yet look exactly like a pre-teen girl.

The claim being made falls entirely flat in each of these cases because other than the minor aside explaining that Paz is of legal age or the Elin are actually ancient or the Asari are mono-gendered and therefore not at all a race of girls all these games do is provide lots of information that directly contradicts those claims. The problem here isn't with what's being depicted in the slightest but rather that the people involved seem to realize what they depict might seem wrong if you don't offer a hurried and insubstantial explanation. When you see just a consistent and half-assed attempt to claim that your duck is not a duck all it tells me is that they know it's a duck and they seem to be ashamed of their directorial choices.

This isn't to say that I have a problem with Paz or the Asari or even the (fairly creepy, honestly) Elin but rather that if developers are so very uncomfortable about the design choices they make then, perhaps, they ought to reexamine their designs. It's either that or just own it. Dancing around the issues of sexuality and violence (which are largely the problem at the heart of all of this) undermines anything they might hope to achieve leaving little but titillation without substance.

 

[Zhukov]

The Asari in Mass Effect aren't female according to the game and yet every single one of them appears to be built more or less like a human female between 20 and 35 years old. They're also all voiced like females and the most notable one in the series dresses and acts in a sterotypically feminine way throughout the series.

Except Asari are female. Both in the lore and in the presentation.

They're mono-gendered, not genderless. And that mono-gender is female, since all Asari can potentially get pregnant. The codex thingy even outright describes them as "all female".

Of course, the reason for them being all-female is less "hey wouldn't this be a cool idea of an alien species" and more "let's give the lonely nerds a race of blue alien babes who swing both ways".

 

[Smeatza]

Except Asari are female. Both in the lore and in the presentation.

That's debateable.
They carry children and have breasts but does that make them female?
Do merely human concepts of gender even apply to a one gender species? I don't think so.

In fact I remember a sequence in the first game where it's speculated that Asari make themselves appear visually more similar and more appealing to species interacting with them, using their psychic powers.
Perhaps the player's perception of the Asari is coloured by Shepherd's perception, which is coloured by the Asari's psychic powers.

They're mono-gendered, not genderless. And that mono-gender is female, since all Asari can potentially get pregnant. The codex thingy even outright describes them as "all female".

No gender and all the same gender is effectively the same thing.
Look at bacteria, they can reproduce and share genetic material. But we don't call them female because of that, we call them genderless. If a species does not have two sexually dimorphic genders then our human concepts of male and female simply don't really apply.
Perhaps in the context of the Mass Effect world the codex was written by humans, who are also subject to simplistic views of gender.

Of course, the reason for them being all-female is less "hey wouldn't this be a cool idea of an alien species" and more "let's give the lonely nerds a race of blue alien babes who swing both ways".

That's a very cynical view. I would have expected the design, lore and characterisation of the race to be more exploitative and pandering if they were created purely for sexual appeal.
If I had to hazard a guess (which is what we're doing, guessing) I would say they thought to themselves,
"How do we make a race dominant yet benevolent and have that as a key part of their design?...... I know, a motherly theme."

I don't know, maybe it's just semantics. But I don't think it's fair to define the Asari on such conventional terms.

 

[Lupine]

Of course, the reason for them being all-female is less "hey wouldn't this be a cool idea of an alien species" and more "let's give the lonely nerds a race of blue alien babes who swing both ways".

That's a very cynical view. I would have expected the design, lore and characterisation of the race to be more exploitative and pandering if they were created purely for sexual appeal.
If I had to hazard a guess (which is what we're doing, guessing) I would say they thought to themselves,
"How do we make a race dominant yet benevolent and have that as a key part of their design?...... I know, a motherly theme."

I don't know, maybe it's just semantics. But I don't think it's fair to define the Asari on such conventional terms.

I don't know, I just always figured they were an homage to the Vorlon race from Babylon 5. That is to say that they are a species that no one is sure of their true form because every other race perceives them differently based on the alterations in their genetic code. That is not to say that they match up perfectly, but I definitely thought...homage and that they went with women instead of angels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVSlKqOXf2k

 

[Zhukov]

Except Asari are female. Both in the lore and in the presentation.

That's debateable.
They carry children and have breasts but does that make them female?
Do merely human concepts of gender even apply to a one gender species? I don't think so.

In fact I remember a sequence in the first game where it's speculated that Asari make themselves appear visually more similar and more appealing to species interacting with them, using their psychic powers.
Perhaps the player's perception of the Asari is coloured by Shepherd's perception, which is coloured by the Asari's psychic powers.

That scene is in the second game and they weren't being serious. The developers were just poking fun at the fact that Asari basically look like blue humans.

They're mono-gendered, not genderless. And that mono-gender is female, since all Asari can potentially get pregnant. The codex thingy even outright describes them as "all female".

No gender and all the same gender is effectively the same thing.
Look at bacteria, they can reproduce and share genetic material. But we don't call them female because of that, we call them genderless. If a species does not have two sexually dimorphic genders then our human concepts of male and female simply don't really apply.
Perhaps in the context of the Mass Effect world the codex was written by humans, who are also subject to simplistic views of gender.

I bet if bacteria had boobs and hips, spoke in feminine voices and gave birth then we'd call them female.

Of course, the reason for them being all-female is less "hey wouldn't this be a cool idea of an alien species" and more "let's give the lonely nerds a race of blue alien babes who swing both ways".

That's a very cynical view. I would have expected the design, lore and characterisation of the race to be more exploitative and pandering if they were created purely for sexual appeal.
If I had to hazard a guess (which is what we're doing, guessing) I would say they thought to themselves,
"How do we make a race dominant yet benevolent and have that as a key part of their design?...... I know, a motherly theme."

I don't know, I just always figured they were an homage to the Vorlon race from Babylon 5. That is to say that they are a species that no one is sure of their true form because every other race perceives them differently based on the alterations in their genetic code. That is not to say that they match up perfectly, but I definitely thought...homage and that they went with women instead of angels.

Well, they weren't created purely for sexual appeal. They obviously wanted Asari characters to be able to be taken seriously as well. And there's clearly some homage to the old green-skinned alien space babes of cheesy sci-fi.

However, I don't know how anyone can look at the whole able-to-fuck-any-species-and-in-fact-are-culturally-encouraged-to-do-so thing without having their cynicism alarm go crazy.

Look, asari are a race of sexy blue alien babes whose declared objective is to mate with males and females of other species. Do we really need to fool ourselves into trying to pretend they're a good, serious race with other objectives than sexyness - especially when the developers themselves in some interview have openly declared they designed asari with the word "sexy" in mind?

Yeah, the Asari always bugged me a bit for that reason. Damn near everything about them seems to have been made up to justify the omnisexuality thing.

I love the individual Asari characters, but the race as a whole... meh.

 

[Vegosiux]

Yeah, the Asari always bugged me a bit for that reason. Damn near everything about them seems to have been made up to justify the omnisexuality thing.

I love the individual Asari characters, but the race as a whole... meh.

"It's a big galaxy, so it's not a stretch that such a species would exist." Now of course, I agree with you on "cynicism alert" and while yes, the Asari weren't created "purely" for sex-appeal, I'd dare say they were created primarily for it, and that's only marginally less bad when it comes to writing. I mean, sure, they at least tried to write some substance around the core of "let's go with sexed-up blue space babes", but, honestly, just having started there kind of makes the point moot...

 

[Terminal Blue]

And there's clearly some homage to the old green-skinned alien space babes of cheesy sci-fi.

Honestly, that's how I always took them. They are basically an updated version of the Syreen from Star Control (who fly around in dildo shaped ships seducing enemy crew). Mass Effect 1 was actually really retro in its aesthetic, although that got eroded in Mass Effect 2.

But I still think what came out is kind of funny.

What's actually weird about them though is not so much why they look like women by why they act like women. They're for the most part an entire civilization of various stereotypical female characters, which is somewhat odd.

 

[Zhukov]

Look, asari are a race of sexy blue alien babes whose declared objective is to mate with males and females of other species. Do we really need to fool ourselves into trying to pretend they're a good, serious race with other objectives than sexyness - especially when the developers themselves in some interview have openly declared they designed asari with the word "sexy" in mind?

Yeah, the Asari always bugged me a bit for that reason. Damn near everything about them seems to have been made up to justify the omnisexuality thing.

I love the individual Asari characters, but the race as a whole... meh.

And it would have been so easy to keep the concept of asari as sexy alien ladies while at the same time not making them as laughable as they are.
I mean, all the ants and bees that we see are female. It would've been easy to keep the concept of an alien race of all females without making it utterly ridiculous like a cheap porn flick.

But then again, that's not what the developers wanted because Mass Effect has awful writing. I don't care what the fans say: I find Mass Effect's writing to be abysmal.
You don't notice it because in the little things - dialogues with NPC, some substories and characters - it works well. But then you realize how the grand scheme of things has worse writing than a generic fps game.

Okay then.

While I am by no means blind to the faults of the series, if you're looking for a ME hate-off then you're talking to the wrong person.

 

[Smeatza]

That scene is in the second game and they weren't being serious. The developers were just poking fun at the fact that Asari basically look like blue humans.

Yeah I don't think so, if that was what they were trying to do then they failed miserably and should employ somebody else to do all of their "poking fun."

I bet if bacteria had boobs and hips, spoke in feminine voices and gave birth then we'd call them female.

Even if we did that doesn't mean we would be right to do so.

Well, they weren't created purely for sexual appeal. They obviously wanted Asari characters to be able to be taken seriously as well. And there's clearly some homage to the old green-skinned alien space babes of cheesy sci-fi.

So when you said "the reason," you meant "a reason."
It makes quite the difference.

However, I don't know how anyone can look at the whole able-to-fuck-any-species-and-in-fact-are-culturally-encouraged-to-do-so thing without having their cynicism alarm go crazy.

Meh, nature has come up with just as weird models of reproduction.
Perhaps it's because I think more of, have more faith in people in general.
Perhaps it's because I'm less judgemental of/sensitive to, this perceived sexual element.
Perhaps it's just because I'm less of a cynic.
But even the green alien babe element doesn't seem out of place to me.

 

[Zhukov]

That scene is in the second game and they weren't being serious. The developers were just poking fun at the fact that Asari basically look like blue humans.

Yeah I don't think so, if that was what they were trying to do then they failed miserably and should employ somebody else to do all of their "poking fun."

Here's a video the scene in question:

Spoiler

Whether you find it funny or not is up to you. But if you can't tell that it was intended to be humorous, then, well, apparently you and me come from different planets.

Well, they weren't created purely for sexual appeal. They obviously wanted Asari characters to be able to be taken seriously as well. And there's clearly some homage to the old green-skinned alien space babes of cheesy sci-fi.

So when you said "the reason," you meant "a reason."
It makes quite the difference.

No, I meant "the main reason, but not the only reason".

Yes, it makes a difference, but not much of one.

However, I don't know how anyone can look at the whole able-to-fuck-any-species-and-in-fact-are-culturally-encouraged-to-do-so thing without having their cynicism alarm go crazy.

Meh, nature has come up with just as weird models of reproduction.

Sure.

And the weird model of reproduction that showed up in the nerdy space adventure about MrMcAwesome The Mighty Manly Space Captain and his Loyal Crew of Hotties just so happened to be one involving a species of bisexual blue aliens that can have sex with humans and resemble hot human women.

But clearly I'm just a mean ol' cynic who never learned the true meaning of Christmas.

 

[Smeatza]

Here's a video the scene in question:

Spoiler

Whether you find it funny or not is up to you. But if you can't tell that it was intended to be humorous, then, well, apparently you and me come from different planets.

I never doubted it was humorous, what I do doubt is that the humor is comes from where you say it does.
They are not poking fun at how much they look like humans, if anything they are poking fun at the idea that they look like humans.
In actual fact the humor comes from drunk people saying silly things, nothing more.
And even so, there's no reason the tone of the scene should automatically exclude it from the canon.

No, I meant "the main reason, but not the only reason".

Yes, it makes a difference, but not much of one.

I could argue that but it would be pointless semantics.

Sure.

Kangaroos have two vagina's so they can keep a reserve fetus on ice and quickly replace their baby if it dies.
That just springs to mind, I could remind myself of much weirder.

And the weird model of reproduction that showed up in the nerdy space adventure about MrMcAwesome The Mighty Manly Space Captain and his Loyal Crew of Hotties just so happened to be one involving a species of bisexual blue aliens that can have sex with humans and resemble hot human women.

Oh I doubt it's a coincidence. Not that it matters.

But clearly I'm just a mean ol' cynic who never learned the true meaning of Christmas.

No not mean, grumpy, pessimistic, hot-headed maybe. After all you are over-exaggerating the sexual element of the Asari and seem highly judgemental of such an element existing at all.

 

[Torque2100]

I absolutely agree with the OP that Kojima is a complete and utter hack. When I heard about the "possible" rape scene involving Paz my reaction was pretty much this. http://images.wikia.com/fantendo/images/b/b0/Jontron.gif

I mean, seriously? Kojima writing a rape scene is like Uwe Boll directing a movie about the Holocaust. It's exploitation. It's not even the fun kind of exploitation like old school Grindhouse movies either. It's the kind of un-ironic, bold-faced exploration that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

I hate the tired, worn out, old moral equivalency argument that keeps getting dragged out every time the handling of sexuality in Video Games comes up. It's a pointless exercise in deflecting debate away from the point, which is that most writers in Video Games, Hideo Kojima included, treat rape at best about a delicately as a Freight Train treats the errant soccer Mom van than tries to drive around the barricades. At worst, Rape and mutilation of attractive women is fetishised and Kojima definitely falls into the latter category.

 

[Gankytim]

You're not getting the point.

Metal Gear has always been about THE HORRORS OF WAR. The entire series can be summed up as "War is very, very, very bad and brings nothing but death and misery. There is no glory, there are no heroes only sad and tortured souls who would have been literally better off if they'd never glanced at a battlefield." Shit, the only character I can think of that doesn't apply to is The Fury, but he was part of the Space Race which was kind of a battlefield on its own. The rapist isn't being rewarded here. You're not supposed to see him as a good guy. You're supposed to WANT to kill him and that's a good reaction to have. How many people are looking forward to dropping that ************ in The Phantom Pain? I am!

It doesn't move the main story forward? Um, I think it does. If not at least giving a little backstory, it makes you hate this character, it makes you want him dead. Which, as mentioned earlier will come to a head in The Phantom Pain.


There is no sexual undertone to the bomb extraction, you're reading too much into it. I can make the failed butterfly catching in MGS3 look like an allusion to masturbation if you give me enough time and I do some serious mental gymnastics. Would I be right? No, of course not. The camera doesn't "lovingly gaze", it puts the gore in your face and practically screams. "THIS IS WRONG, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO THIS!" You felt uncomfortable? GOOD! THAT WAS THE POINT!

Again, going back to the point of the horrors of war Ground Zeroes is an (obvious) allusion to the mistreatment of Prisoners of war in places like Guantanamo. The places where the REAL sadists and scumbags get to do whatever they want to these poor people. It's not a pretty message but it's one that deserves telling if any of this is going to change and if and when it does change stories like Ground Zeroes will serve as a haunting reminder of what horrible people got to do to their fellow human beings during this time.

Reasons like this are why Ground Zeroes is going into my folder for arguing with people who say games aren't art, because this story damn well is. Maybe if people didn't jump the gun and immediately think that any mention of rape is trivializing, apologizing or supporting rape we might be able to have an actual discussion about it.

 

[Gankytim]

It doesn't matter if Paz managed to hold the world at gunpoint. If she was such an important character, whom we are suppose to root for, then surely a better death could've been written.

Ah, but is her death "poorly written" or do you just think that it's offensive?

There's a difference. A big one.