Growing up pirates?

[StriderShinryu]

Yes, it's another topic about piracy and yes, I hate these as much as you all do, but a recent comment by someone at Namco/Bandai caught my interest.

"I think that the combat against piracy is very complicated because it's very complicated to explain to a 12-year-old that drag and dropping a file on a PC is piracy - he was born with this."

http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/705044/Namco-Bandai-Always-On-DRM-Is-Good-Approach.html

I found that to be a very interesting point. Certainly that has become the way of things with the downloading of music. As someone who doesn't pirate games, however, has it really gone that far with games already? Is it so ingrained in those growing up today that the way to get a game (on their PC for the most part) is to just go online and find a copy of it there? If so, is there really any way that this can be turned around when children are essentially growing up pirates and maybe not even realizing it?

 

[DazZ.]

I knew that copying a game was pirating at that age, and it wasn't plastered all over the media back then.
I'm sure you can grasp that you shouldn't play games copies off a buddy.

My friend had a cracked PSX and more games than the game store though, so I learnt quickly. I didn't learn it was wrong quickly though, I loved it back then.

 

[Entropyutd]

It's bee

Is it so ingrained in those growing up today that the way to get a game (on their PC for the most part) is to just go online and find a copy of it there? If so, is there really any way that this can be turned around when children are essentially growing up pirates and maybe not even realizing it?

It's been that way for a long time.
I first got online consistently in 1994, even then at arguably the start of the internet being present in most homes, warez/piracy was rife.
In fact even before the internet, one could buy large quantities of software for home computers like the Amiga or Atari ST.

I think it is reasonable to assume that most of this generation have grown up with priacy.
I do not subscribe to the fact that just dragging or clicking is hard to explain to a kid that it is still theft, because I do think most understand, It's not that it is wrong, it is more that it is a very easy crime to commit with virtually no comeback. The victims are faceless, and lets face it Metallica are hardly starving artists are they?

The way I see it, piracy hate it, or love it, is here for good, because the only way to actually stop it would make 1984 look like total freedom.
Each ISP would have to be forced to spy on their clients, looking at every packet of data downloaded and then enforce a ban on the user downloading pirate software or music and report them to the authorities.
Or perhaps even national firewalls like China. (Which don't work and most people know how to circumvent)

 

[AnAngryMoose]

I read this and expected the swashbuckling kind of pirates...

...Sniff...

 

[xdgt]

... I think his train of thought is missing a few hundred miles of track.

You still have to download the game. It may only take half an hour on those 50mb/s connections, but theres still the process of getting the torrent client, going to a tracker, downloading a torrent file that automatically opens the torrent client, and waiting for it to download. Then installing it and drag/dropping the crack in the installation folder.

Well that's not entirely true, there are sites that store games, where you can just click and download. Some games are 500-700mb so it doesn't take that long. And once the game is on your PC you couldn't distinguish it from a legal version (no crack necesary for some).

If you compare internet piracy to real life stealing, I'd have to say there is much less effort involved and you never see the owner of the product infront of you so you never think of it as theft.

You go to Youtube and listen to a song you like and its perfectly legal, but you download it to your PC and then listen to it and its piracy - the distinction is just too slim and its hard for some to see. But I don't think its that hard to explain or understand once its been explained to you.

 

[Arawn.Chernobog]

Oh there are plenty of solutions to truly fight piracy gone rampant, all of them mean sacrifices for those who don't pirate, the most popular one currently being suggested by several companies: "Make a monthly subscription system for all PC games and lock out half the content in on-line databases without which the game will not run properly, keep them lock until the subscription is paid"

Or people can start buying their damn games.

 

[xdgt]

Well that's not entirely true, there are sites that store games, where you can just click and download. Some games are 500-700mb so it doesn't take that long. And once the game is on your PC you couldn't distinguish it from a legal version (no crack necesary for some).

If you compare internet piracy to real life stealing, I'd have to say there is much less effort involved and you never see the owner of the product infront of you so you never think of it as theft.

You go to Youtube and listen to a song you like and its perfectly legal, but you download it to your PC and then listen to it and its piracy - the distinction is just too slim and its hard for some to see. But I don't think its that hard to explain or understand once its been explained to you.

I always forget about your rapidshares and your megauploads simply because I don't understand why anyone actually lays down the money necessary to get even a small game off them. But there is still the point of "DOWNLOADING THE GAME." Not to mention how pathetically easy it would be to argue such paid "file hosting services" are generating 99.999% of their revenue from illegal activity. Ranging from something as mundane as piracy to full blown, hardcore, actual factual, child pornography.

Also, most games are 500-700mb? What? Are you posting from 1997?

Oh there are plenty of solutions to truly fight piracy gone rampant, all of them mean sacrifices for those who don't pirate, the most popular one currently being suggested by several companies: "Make a monthly subscription system for all PC games and lock out half the content in on-line databases without which the game will not run properly, keep them lock until the subscription is paid"

Or people can start buying their damn games.

Yes, lets punish paying customers for the actions of people engaging in activities deemed illegal by countries they may not even live in. Flawless plan.

Rapidshare has a free download option so you don't even have to subscribe. I said "Some" games not "Most", I'm not living in a bubble here, just pointing out that some very good games aren't necesarily huge in disk space.
And the final subject of download - all it takes is clicking a button so its easy as hell, and seeing as how you download legal stuff all the time it doesn't right off the bat strikes you as wrong. The problem is you don't have a physical object - when you steal a disc from a store you can cleaarly see its a theft, when you copy data from a public source (though the source itself does not have legal rights to the data) it is not so visible.

 

[Drakmeire]

I remember that my dad got me addicted to Napster when it first came out. I always figured "If it's illegal, why are they allowed to do it online". In my defense I was 9.

 

[tzimize]

Well...I'd say that people that young are a bit more prone to breaking the rules in the first place. Thats sort of what teenagers do. However I do not believe this to be a big problem for a couple of reasons.

1: A pirated game does NOT equal a lost sale. This is one of the most important points in the whole discussion.

2: Even if younglings pirate, they will grow up. They will (in most cases) come into more money. They will be able to afford to BUY what they want. In many cases, buying CAN be as fast/easy as pirating. A lot of grown ups will do this for a lot of reasons even if they can still pirate. This way the industry is really gaining customers in the long run.

I think that good products will be bought almost no matter what. Unfortunately a lot of people have shitty taste which is why games like for example BG&E and Okami sold rather poorly (I think). This has little to do with piracy though.

In the end, people will buy good products and thats the bottom line. A lot of developers want to develop shit and expect us to pay for it. I for one, am DAMN glad I dont have to shell out a sack of money for a product that MIGHT be good. I will almost exclusively try (interpret that how you want) before I buy. But I DO buy good products afterwards. This works fine and does not hurt the industry. Crappy products get zero money, good ones get more or less what they deserve.

 

[Penguinness]

Piracy, we've all done it. Thankfully some companies now are realising that having their products costing thousands when uni courses require the students to get them is just asking for it. Autodesk is now offering some of their products to students for free, thank god. I think it's not a farfetched notion that if things were how they were before they were offering these things to students but piracy was completely irradicated, then it's doubtful that there would be games courses at unis.

 

[Hashime]

I know that if I were to pirate a game I would have to deal with possibly long download times, the risk of viruses, possibly complex cracking techniques, and large internet usage (I only have 60 gb a month). This is why I prefer just buying a disk, or using steam, steam is not blocked at my school, torrents are.

 

[SimuLord]

Here's an interesting thought for game companies: Stop making PC games that young people will be your primary audience to enjoy, because most of them don't develop the sense that "games cost money" until adulthood, at which point their tastes are changing and evolving toward games that will be better-marketed toward them (consider the big sellers---as opposed to most-pirated, though there's certainly overlap---on the PC are games like Sins of a Solar Empire, Mount&Blade, Paradox Interactive's body of work, even the Civilization and Sims series.)

If you only make games for grownups on the PC, you'll still have piracy, but designing games that teenagers will like only works on consoles where they pretty much have to buy them---it's a (mostly) locked-down platform where casual piracy of the sort you find on the PC is all but impossible. (yes, I know about DS flashcarts and modchips, just saying most people don't have these things and you really do risk catching someone's attention once you get hardware involved.)

I think this is the future of PC gaming---as Brad Wardell of Stardock put it, "If we made games designed to appeal to Chinese gamers and lost our shirts, you wouldn't have much sympathy for us, would you?" Just swap in "pirates" for "Chinese gamers" and you'll see that kids don't belong here on this platform. Kids with adult tastes who act like adults and buy games like adults? Welcome, and we're proud of you. Mom and Dad raised you well (or they were complete fuck-offs and you raised yourselves well, but either way, we're still proud of you.)

 

[Doctor VonSexMachine]

I'm old, but not that old. Surely some of you remember that shit.

 

[xdgt]

Rapidshare has a free download option so you don't even have to subscribe. I said "Some" games not "Most", I'm not living in a bubble here, just pointing out that some very good games aren't necesarily huge in disk space.
And the final subject of download - all it takes is clicking a button so its easy as hell, and seeing as how you download legal stuff all the time it doesn't right off the bat strikes you as wrong. The problem is you don't have a physical object - when you steal a disc from a store you can cleaarly see its a theft, when you copy data from a public source (though the source itself does not have legal rights to the data) it is not so visible.

You've apparently never tried to use the "Free" options for anything. For rapidshare, its "please wait one second per mb of the file -> download speed capped to around 100kB/s -> please wait two minutes per mb of the file before downloading the next part."

Also, I knew I forgot to hit one point. Theft is actually removing a physical object from another's possession. Copyright infringement is exactly what that phrase says. Violating a person's or company's just claims to reproduction. The term and practice has about as much criminality as jay-walking. Even when its on a massive scale, the only way a copyright holder can argue its a crime (in civil court) is if someone is profiting from it.

Rapidshare specifically is beside the point - you can download stuff with relative ease.
And copyright infringement while might not be considered theft is still theft in essence - you take something for free that you would otherwise have to pay for, be it physical or information. And obviously companies profit from selling their games, so piracy is criminal.

 

[Beartrucci]

I read this and expected the swashbuckling kind of pirates...

...Sniff...

There's still hope for this thread!

Spoiler: Ahoy

 

[King of the Sandbox]

So, a pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel hanging from his fly...

OT: Meh, as far as piracy goes, it's BS. There are still TONS of people (the vast majority, in fact) that don't even use the internet. I'm dead serious. In my whole town, there's probably 20% of private residences with internet. They're either just stubborn old folks or folks that are satisfied with Tivo and a cellphone. They'll never pirate anything. These are the people still buying bootleg DVD's by the bushel, instead of learning to do it themselves.

And these aren't bumpkins or anything (ok, some, but still), they're the average Joe, middle income, white-bread, all American consumer type people.

Now, to the newer generations, the internet will have been around forever to them, and it may be second nature to just grab whatever you want offline, but if it's fairly enforced, it should be handled about as well as any other real-world theft. Which is to say, the cops will say they'll try and get the bad guys for you, but then actually not do dick about it. New format, same program, if you follow. The only thing to get them off their asses is when a organization such as the RIAA throws a hissy and makes them bust a token person for downloading a few albums they couldn't afford otherwise.

But I'm of the school that thinks creating something for money invalidates it as true art. True artists simply want their work to be seen, to be heard, to be experienced and to get feedback from it to inspire further works. Getting recompense is and should always be an afterthought to art. So anytime I hear an 'artist' whining about how people are TRYING TO LISTEN TO THEIR MUSIC, EVEN GOING SO FAR AS TO HAVE TO 'STEAL' IT TO DO SO, AND HOW THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED FOR NOT PAYING FOR THE RIGHT, I rage. Street performers are more of an artist than 90% of modern 'musicians'.

 

[direkiller]

And copyright infringement while might not be considered theft is still theft in essence

Okay.

you take something for free that you would otherwise have to pay for, be it physical or information. And obviously companies profit from selling their games, so piracy is criminal.

Wait, what? No, thats shoplifting.

To put in non-digital terms, piracy is duplicating something. The duplication is yours, and is identical in every way, shape, and form to the original, and the original is still in the possession of the creator. Calling this act "theft" is saying that, were the capacity of duplication removed and the only way to have the original was to buy the original, one would be guaranteed to buy it. This has been consistently proven to not be the case.

Attempting to argue that each pirated copy of a game, movie, book, or whatever is a lost sale of that IP is self defeating, as there is simply no data that indicates that.

there is still people that would buy the game if a pirated copy was not there. It may not be a 1 to 1 ratio of pirated copys to loss of sale but there is still some lost sales.

 

[xdgt]

And copyright infringement while might not be considered theft is still theft in essence

Okay.

you take something for free that you would otherwise have to pay for, be it physical or information. And obviously companies profit from selling their games, so piracy is criminal.

Wait, what? No, thats shoplifting.

To put in non-digital terms, piracy is duplicating something. The duplication is yours, and is identical in every way, shape, and form to the original, and the original is still in the possession of the creator. Calling this act "theft" is saying that, were the capacity of duplication removed and the only way to have the original was to buy the original, one would be guaranteed to buy it. This has been consistently proven to not be the case.

Attempting to argue that each pirated copy of a game, movie, book, or whatever is a lost sale of that IP is self defeating, as there is simply no data that indicates that.

Lets say you have a cake duplicating machine. You come to a man selling cakes, pick whichever you like and duplicate it, aren't you puting the man out of business? Obviously some would still come and pay for the original, and yes it is possible that if you didn't have the machine you never would have bought the original but there also a possibility that you would be really hungry and spend your money on the cake instead of spending it on something else.
And with the ability to duplicate the cake why would you ever want to buy the cake instead of duplicating it for all your friends and family?

 

[Delusibeta]

I read the quote in the OP as "12 year olds know how to copy & paste" rather than "12 year olds only know piracy". But then again, this is a representative who thinks the UbiDRM is a good idea, ergo he's a moron.

 

[direkiller]

there is still people that would buy the game if a pirated copy was not there. It may not be a 1 to 1 ratio of pirated copys to loss of sale but there is still some lost sales.

Most people who pirate do so because they don't have disposable income to blow on entertainment. The rest prefer simply to spend their money elsewhere.

Neither of these groups would ever be sales.

For the second group it picking between going to see that movie this weekend or buying that game and some would buy the game and thus lost sales. As i said its not every pirated copy is one lost sale but there is still loss of sales due to pirated copes.

Lets look at the wii after that chip hit the market there sales of games dropped. Why because people who normal would have bought the game pirated it instead.