Oh it's so time to get over this, it's fiction and it doesn't sound like it misrepresents torture in any way, it's a brutal and awful thing to do, and it happens, so when I hear "make it skippable", I actually hear "lalalalala my perfect world can't be shattered".
It's a game about crime, about doing crime, harming people, I don't understand this outrage like it doesn't belong in this type of game.
I think it's not unreasonable for them. They're trying to prevent torture and abuse of prisoners' rights, and so media depictions of torture that trivialise or glorify it are a concern to them.
Gary Larson said that every time he drew a cartoon featuring prisoners in shackles or being tortured he would get a gentle letter from Amnesty about it. Although he did ask 'does the Wizard of Id get these?'
First of all the whole "children watching this" argument shouldnt even be made since you insisted on having rating system that limited this game to 18 year olds and older.
Besides that, i believe that the game authors have a right to put whatever content they want in thier game (provided its legal), and you as a consumer have a right not to buy such content. you cant however force them to take away content they feel is necessary for their game.
Also while i havent played that mission myself, from what i hear if anything it makes you feeling that torture is in fact a bad thing, as in, opposite to what Amnesty is saying.
mad825 said:
Rockstar North.
Trolling the media and the sense of morality since 1997. This game isn't for kids, I hope you guys figured that out.
For those who haven't played the game but want context:
The mission takes place in a storyline where the protagonists have to help the FIB extract an informant from the IAA (CIA) because the FIB feels that they are being shortchanged. In the two missions leading up to the torture you are basically told outright that the prisoner is an innocent man who's been abducted by the IAA because he's Azerbaijani and works with electronics (as a stereo/home movie installer).
During the torture sequence it is made amply clear that the prisoner is ready to talk if the interrogator would just ask any proper questions and that it is an overzealous FIB agent and a sadistic protagonist that tortures him anyway. He eventually gives you the information you need and you shoot a guy with the other protagonist in the mission. After the torture mission the news on the radio will inform you that the police and community are baffled why anyone would shoot the target that was singled out under torture (and was singled out as "that guy I installed a stereo system for") since he was a known philanthropist and pillar of the community.
Essentially, the entire mission chain is a big take that at both the US intelligence agencies rivalry, their confirmation bias in singling out people of specific ethnicities and the unreliable methods of getting "information" that they use. The torture scene is visceral and I found it pretty disturbing, which I think was the entire point of it.
As a final note: during the entire torture the victim has a huge crucifix around his neck, as if to further drive home just how misguided the entire thing is.
Exactly put, in both of these posts. I HATED playing through this bit, they made it disgusting on purpose, you're not SUPPOSED to enjoy it in any way, and it felt much the same way as a lot of bits in Spec Ops: The Line. You have no choice, you're forced into it, and it's horrible. But it made a damn good point in the way no other medium could-
Trevor, the psychopathic batshitcrazy fucking asshole he is, in what seems his only slip of humanity in the entire game thus far, lets the guy live after being told to off him by the FIB* guy running the show, and explains to him the whole way that torture for information is bullshit, he knew that the guy would've talked anyway if he'd known what he needed to tell, and that anyone who has tortured and says torture for information is really for information is full of shit and just enjoys it. Trevor takes the guy to the airport and tries to convince him to get as far away as possible and become an advocate against torture.
So concentrate on stopping them doing that. Don't blame the publishers who put a clear adults-only rating on the game. Let's have a concentrated media campaign to stop parents letting their kids play non-age-appropriate games. We don't blame movie makers for parents' irresponsibilities, why do we treat games differently?
I think it's pretty bad to not only put the player in the position of a torturing protagonist, but also to imply that information obtained under torture is reliable.
I was playing through that part of the game yesterday and the whole point of it was to show how unnecessary these methods are. The victim didn't say anything he wouldn't say otherwise. It was implied that the asshole guy from the agency was turned on by this.
The information wasn't reliable since it was just a vague description of a guy. For all I know, I shot the wrong person afterwards.
Flatfrog said:
We don't blame movie makers for parents' irresponsibilities, why do we treat games differently?
Because if you'll start blaming all those dumb parents, they will stop watching your TV station or buying your paper or they won't vote for you in the next elections.
Choice, choice, choice... people keep whining about it but it isn't a requirement of a good game, nor' should it be. Don't get me wrong, I love choice and freedom in my games but games can be put into two categories regarding choice. Games where you as the player are essentially the main character and games where you are in the shoes of another character. GTAV is the latter.
As the character you play is EVIL, you tend to do EVIL things, despite your own morality. Nobody walks away from that scene thinking torture is ok that didn't already think do. In fact, I am willing to bet money that many people that believe in torture for national security change their minds after playing through a scenario like this one.
Amnesty International does great work. But they just don't get it(or at least the older PR members in charge don't). I don't expect them to get it. What does surprise me is all the Gen Y'ers like myself suddenly grabbing a moral soapbox on these issues as things like this stop rolling off their conscious and start impacting their more experienced psyche. It is an interesting social phenomena to watch.
So concentrate on stopping them doing that. Don't blame the publishers who put a clear adults-only rating on the game. Let's have a concentrated media campaign to stop parents letting their kids play non-age-appropriate games. We don't blame movie makers for parents' irresponsibilities, why do we treat games differently?
?ATL is not calling for a ban on these games, or censorship at all. What we are asking is for parents to become aware that the little ones are seeing these things.?
That's from the primary bit even mentioning children.
Well no shit torturing doesn't give you reliable information in the real world? Guess what though? You cant ram another car at 40 without a seatbelt, be fine and drive away a few seconds later either. Or take half a dozen bullets from a rifle and duck back for a few seconds and be AOK either.
Games are unrealistic. I know it is a shock but its something everyone should know.
I know, but it still makes me uncomfortable (as the whole game always has, really). Because all that fun driving around, consequence-free crashing, carjacking and mowing down of pedestrians has always had an element of wish-fulfillment to it. And now we add torture to the mix, is that wish-fulfillment too?
Having said that, judging by several posts here by people who have actually played the game (unlike me or, as I said before, I suspect Amnesty) it sounds like the context of the scene is much more sensitively done than Amnesty suggest. So that's good.
I'm surprised this scene hasn't drawn more heat than this, to be honest.
But it's really not that bad. I had heard mention of the scene and that it's gruesome but I played it the other night and it's... Meh. Pull a tooth, break a kneecap, electrocute the guy, bit of water torture; it's pretty standard and far from the worst violence in video games. Far from the worst thing Rockstar have done. I obviously understand why it would make people feel uncomfortable, but it's really not as bad as people say, imo.
That said, only Trevor (the psychotic drug addict) and the asshole FIB agent are happy with the torture and even Trevor isn't totally in support of it.
The hot coffee mod? The mod itself was to enable hidden code within the game. The animations and mechanics were created by rockstar but weren't officially part of the game as it seemed to be an unfinished project.
I think it's not unreasonable for them. They're trying to prevent torture and abuse of prisoners' rights, and so media depictions of torture that trivialise or glorify it are a concern to them.
Gary Larson said that every time he drew a cartoon featuring prisoners in shackles or being tortured he would get a gentle letter from Amnesty about it. Although he did ask 'does the Wizard of Id get these?'
If I remember rightly, and in fairness it has been a very long time since I checked, a lot of Amnesty's work centers on assisting political prisoners with everything like healthcare to helping them communicate with their families to offering legal assistance. Much of their ability to achieve anything relies on their being perceived as politically neutral.
I know that political neutrality does not equal ethical neutrality, but if they're going start brazenly denouncing elements of pop culture, bizarely even elements that support their position as in this instance, in the public eye then that's going to undermine their ability to perform that role. It's inappropriate for them to pass judgement on anything is what I'm saying.
Then again maybe they're not about actually helping individuals in shitty situations anymore. Maybe they're like Human Rights Watch Lite and just bang the drum shouting "Torture is bad!" to anyone who will listen.
I haven't played it or seen that scene so I can't say for sure, but if Rockstars intention was to make the player feel like an ass for doing it (therby condemning torture rather than glorifying it) then... good on them? They sure picked a controversial way to do it though.
I mean some psychopath could get off on it, and it could lead to disaster of some kind, but there is no shortage of entertainment media around to glorify torture or at least desensatize us to it.
As someone who was myself extensively tortured, I don't have an issue with the scene even not having played it. Even if it was held up as some kind of useful tool for extracting information and an okay thing to do, it would simply be nonsense, and fiction is full of nonsense. Doing this in a game is no more desensitizing than it is for rape, murder or any other horrible act.
As for torture itself, it can very much so get a stubborn detainee to talk and reveal secrets. The information you get is suspect and you have to corroborate it using other intel gathering methods. I have no doubt that the U.S. officials who defended water boarding as a method were correct in that its use produced results. However, water boarding IS torture and torture IS wrong. I don't care how effective what they did was nor do I care how many people they claimed it saved. Torture is horrific and should never be used except as a training method.
Is it like Splinter Cell where it's completely misplaced and stupidly over the top? Cause that really ruined a lot of Conviction for me, not that i was taking it particularly seriously in the first place but it was in very poor taste.
I don't know how it is in GTAV but i imagine it's just Rockstar trying to be controversial, something i really don't condone.
Well that's it then. The party's over. Expect future versions of the game to sell with the torture scene removed. Just look at how many brutal and despotic dictators have stepped down and let democracy rein stating "I would have got away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids at Amnesty International."
Now all we need is for Code Pink to stage a sit in and Rockstar Games will just put themselves completely out of business.
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