Guild Wars 2 Player Reaches Level Cap Through Crafting

[Aprilgold]

Wait, you can level up by not fighting? Like... do other things to level up?

...

Alright, now I'm interested.

Its true, you can also level up by, but this is of course not everything, jumping puzzles, minigames within the world like Golem Chess or the Keg game [can't remember its name] and there may be several rewards for trading but I am not quite sure. In total, everything from fighting to being a pansy is covered as a legit way of leveling.

This is my problem with MMOs. It's really all math and equations, statistical data and efficiency, percentages and raw numeric data. I don't see the fun in that.

I hope you do understand that he choose to do this and that there is more then just numbercrunching right?

______________________________


I have said to people that you can do this and they thought I was bloody mad, well, I was right.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Math skills? I would agree. Anything other than math? Such as? Racing games require reflexes, observation, timing, not really math except in the loosest possible sense. Shooters require reflexes, eye-hand whatchamacallit, reflexes, even a keen eye. Puzzles, depends, often fast thinking, fast reflexes, foresight. Strategy games require strategic thinking (duh), problem solving, little math is necessary in many cases, but that depends on one's play style.

>.> see, i might not claim to be a fount of knowledge about GW2, but i do know it's doing more to break the mold of your conventional MMO then you seem to think. even i know its not doing the same shit ToR, or most every other MMO did to beat WoW, and i don't have any interest in the game

MMOs, those funny little games, take stats. You don't really need skill, you just need that .2% crit bonus, or those buffs that reduce DOTs enough to give that edge, in some cases range is a factor, all of this is math. I'm sure activating macros and selecting the right actions takes skill, but only in the same sense as microwaving a burrito takes skill. Ultimately, percentages, subtraction, etc, all numbers, no requirements beyond mathematical finesse.

only aplys to one of the games i play, sorta, not saying it dosen't apply to all MMOs but, aside the 3 i play this applys [http://i.imgur.com/ItLcn.png]

And really, 2/3 of what you play? Please list them if you wouldn't mind, I'm really dying to know which of these MMOs are more skill based than math based. I'm not even being sarcastic. Had I known such gems existed my whole outlook on the genre would be a drastic departure from where it stands now.

Comparatively, as far as I know the very way in which these games are executed prohibits them from being more than math games with a miniscule sprinkle of speed (irrelevant if one can overtake one's objective with superior numeric value).

Anxiously awaiting enlightenment.

Vindictus is the most predominant of the two. it has stats, of course, but the difference lies in that gear score really only accounts for like 5%, at best, of how well a battle will turn out. the rest relys on timing, reading tells and attacks and blocking or dodging accordingly. there are no support spells from the mage and only one, fairly crappy heal with a 2 minute cool down in the whole game.

the other is Dungeon Fighter Online, it has stats as well that for the life of me i have no idea why they're there other then to fill the 'it has stats so its an MMO' thing, its a 2D brawler in the vain of Streets of Rage. that stats matter a little more, but not much so far as i've noticed. it dose have buffs, mostly self improving, but again, on the characters that have em, not really noticing any real difference, with Super Armor being the exception due to its effect (cancels all forms of reaction to damage, IE getting knocked down or back and so on) and its not like I'm keeping them under leveled ether.

now, in DFO's case i could be I'm just not seeing where the 'math part' matters, but i know in Vin while there ARE some ways to get extra buffs, but those buff activate on a set percentage making them effectively random, (and highly sought after by people with nothing better to do and the gold to cover if adding these buff to their gear destroys it) and that they aren't needed in the same seance the buffs you spoke of are, i don't have them and i do just fine

the other, City of Heroes, >.> eh .... unless your running the super high end content, you really don't need buffs of any kind. the games pretty laid back in terms of the team combos you can get away with even in some of the higher level stuff, and since almost every thing you do is scaled to ether your level or a certain level (say your level 34, you jump into something with a max level of 20, your level 20 for the duration, and the same aplys to teaming with a lower level player, you scale to the level of whom ever is leading) all the high end min/maxing with IO sets kinda becomes moot.

course, if you got OUT MORE, and actually tried to find MMO's that where different, you'd know this already.

 

[2xDouble]

It's easy to forget that not all games rely on pure statistics, and cannot ergo be so easily broken down to fun-stifling mathematical equations. Math didn't make me an excellent driver in GTA4 or a skilled marksman in Unreal Tournament, that was skill, if you pardon my braggartry (I so made up that word).

Braggadocio, actually. And yes, it did. You merely weren't cognizant of it.

*The More You Know!*

Math skills? I would agree. Anything other than math? Such as? Racing games require reflexes, observation, timing, not really math except in the loosest possible sense. Shooters require reflexes, eye-hand whatchamacallit, reflexes, even a keen eye. Puzzles, depends, often fast thinking, fast reflexes, foresight. Strategy games require strategic thinking (duh), problem solving, little math is necessary in many cases, but that depends on one's play style.

MMOs, those funny little games, take stats. You don't really need skill, you just need that .2% crit bonus, or those buffs that reduce DOTs enough to give that edge, in some cases range is a factor, all of this is math. I'm sure activating macros and selecting the right actions takes skill, but only in the same sense as microwaving a burrito takes skill. Ultimately, percentages, subtraction, etc, all numbers, no requirements beyond mathematical finesse.

And really, 2/3 of what you play? Please list them if you wouldn't mind, I'm really dying to know which of these MMOs are more skill based than math based. I'm not even being sarcastic. Had I known such gems existed my whole outlook on the genre would be a drastic departure from where it stands now.

Comparatively, as far as I know the very way in which these games are executed prohibits them from being more than math games with a miniscule sprinkle of speed (irrelevant if one can overtake one's objective with superior numeric value).

Anxiously awaiting enlightenment.

How do you define "skill"?

You clearly mention reflex, coordination, problem-solving, critical thinking, area awareness, prior planning, and intelligence (both types)... defining those as "skills". Yet, all of those same skills, as defined and offered as examples by you, somehow lose "skill" status when applied to an MMO? Does the introduction of direct competition, the primary facet of the MMO, somehow make those things completely reliant on something that happens 0.2% of the time instead of the player using them? (actually, that last one is "yes", and I'll explain why)

The simple fact is, you need math to be the best. Any moron can jump into Halo or Call of Duty and start shooting people, or play Need for Speed and start crashing cars, but to truly excel at it (especially on a professional level), you need precise details (aka. Math). You need to know exactly how high is your muzzle rise and counterbalance it with drop-off (if there is any). You need to know exactly where your Sniper shot is going to bounce. You need to know exactly how large the rocket launcher explosion is, and where the effect tapers off, so you can accurately target the center of a group and get an Overkill. You need to know precisely how your tires and brakes affect your drift speed and turning radius. You need to know exactly what angle to place the spoiler under which weather conditions to maximize traction without sacrificing top speed. You need to know exactly how fast your vehicle can accelerate under which conditions, and your maximum "safe speed" (as opposed to top speed) with any and all circumstances. There are countless other examples in every game...

All of that is done in your mind and behind the scenes, without you even realizing it. Doing the math, creating those spreadsheets and calculations, bring those impulse reactions into your conscious mind, letting you manipulate and control them. As Sun Tzu said:

"Know your enemy, and you will be strong. Know yourself, and you will be invincible." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

I strongly suggest you look up one David Sirlin, and read his texts on the subject of competition and success.

 

[Icehearted]

Goodness me, where to begin?

This is my problem with MMOs. It's really all math and equations, statistical data and efficiency, percentages and raw numeric data. I don't see the fun in that.

I hope you do understand that he choose to do this and that there is more then just numbercrunching right?

Choices amount to a ration of aggro/dps/ and burst damage, all numerically calculated, and choosing how to overlap these and ottehr mathematical attributes in order to successfully whittle the numeric attirbuts of a target object or NPC (be it a buff, health, etc). You can decorate it with all the glitter you like, it's still more math than anything else, and the best players are the ones more keenly aware of how to apply said mathematical equations.

Math skills? I would agree. Anything other than math? Such as? Racing games require reflexes, observation, timing, not really math except in the loosest possible sense. Shooters require reflexes, eye-hand whatchamacallit, reflexes, even a keen eye. Puzzles, depends, often fast thinking, fast reflexes, foresight. Strategy games require strategic thinking (duh), problem solving, little math is necessary in many cases, but that depends on one's play style.

>.> see, i might not claim to be a fount of knowledge about GW2, but i do know it's doing more to break the mold of your conventional MMO then you seem to think. even i know its not doing the same shit ToR, or most every other MMO did to beat WoW, and i don't have any interest in the game

MMOs, those funny little games, take stats. You don't really need skill, you just need that .2% crit bonus, or those buffs that reduce DOTs enough to give that edge, in some cases range is a factor, all of this is math. I'm sure activating macros and selecting the right actions takes skill, but only in the same sense as microwaving a burrito takes skill. Ultimately, percentages, subtraction, etc, all numbers, no requirements beyond mathematical finesse.

only aplys to one of the games i play, sorta, not saying it dosen't apply to all MMOs but, aside the 3 i play this applys [http://i.imgur.com/ItLcn.png]

And really, 2/3 of what you play? Please list them if you wouldn't mind, I'm really dying to know which of these MMOs are more skill based than math based. I'm not even being sarcastic. Had I known such gems existed my whole outlook on the genre would be a drastic departure from where it stands now.

Comparatively, as far as I know the very way in which these games are executed prohibits them from being more than math games with a miniscule sprinkle of speed (irrelevant if one can overtake one's objective with superior numeric value).

Anxiously awaiting enlightenment.

Vindictus is the most predominant of the two. it has stats, of course, but the difference lies in that gear score really only accounts for like 5%, at best, of how well a battle will turn out. the rest relys on timing, reading tells and attacks and blocking or dodging accordingly. there are no support spells from the mage and only one, fairly crappy heal with a 2 minute cool down in the whole game.

the other is Dungeon Fighter Online, it has stats as well that for the life of me i have no idea why they're there other then to fill the 'it has stats so its an MMO' thing, its a 2D brawler in the vain of Streets of Rage. that stats matter a little more, but not much so far as i've noticed. it dose have buffs, mostly self improving, but again, on the characters that have em, not really noticing any real difference, with Super Armor being the exception due to its effect (cancels all forms of reaction to damage, IE getting knocked down or back and so on) and its not like I'm keeping them under leveled ether.

now, in DFO's case i could be I'm just not seeing where the 'math part' matters, but i know in Vin while there ARE some ways to get extra buffs, but those buff activate on a set percentage making them effectively random, (and highly sought after by people with nothing better to do and the gold to cover if adding these buff to their gear destroys it) and that they aren't needed in the same seance the buffs you spoke of are, i don't have them and i do just fine

the other, City of Heroes, >.> eh .... unless your running the super high end content, you really don't need buffs of any kind. the games pretty laid back in terms of the team combos you can get away with even in some of the higher level stuff, and since almost every thing you do is scaled to ether your level or a certain level (say your level 34, you jump into something with a max level of 20, your level 20 for the duration, and the same aplys to teaming with a lower level player, you scale to the level of whom ever is leading) all the high end min/maxing with IO sets kinda becomes moot.

course, if you got OUT MORE, and actually tried to find MMO's that where different, you'd know this already.

I confess, I know little about some of these games, but essentially the formula is often similar with a modest interpretation. I will give them a look, but from what I know it really is all about numbers. Anything that builds on the ideas of Guild Wars (Math), World Of Warcraft (more math), countless free to play MMOs (should I roll a Mathemagician or a Mathromancer?) is all math math math. See my first replay in this post. All the honey and milk doesn't change that it's just numbers vs. numbers. Also, I don't see how getting out more would be conducive with playing more MMOs... that's like, counterintuitive and stuff.

It's easy to forget that not all games rely on pure statistics, and cannot ergo be so easily broken down to fun-stifling mathematical equations. Math didn't make me an excellent driver in GTA4 or a skilled marksman in Unreal Tournament, that was skill, if you pardon my braggartry (I so made up that word).

Braggadocio, actually. And yes, it did. You merely weren't cognizant of it.

*The More You Know!*

Math skills? I would agree. Anything other than math? Such as? Racing games require reflexes, observation, timing, not really math except in the loosest possible sense. Shooters require reflexes, eye-hand whatchamacallit, reflexes, even a keen eye. Puzzles, depends, often fast thinking, fast reflexes, foresight. Strategy games require strategic thinking (duh), problem solving, little math is necessary in many cases, but that depends on one's play style.

MMOs, those funny little games, take stats. You don't really need skill, you just need that .2% crit bonus, or those buffs that reduce DOTs enough to give that edge, in some cases range is a factor, all of this is math. I'm sure activating macros and selecting the right actions takes skill, but only in the same sense as microwaving a burrito takes skill. Ultimately, percentages, subtraction, etc, all numbers, no requirements beyond mathematical finesse.

And really, 2/3 of what you play? Please list them if you wouldn't mind, I'm really dying to know which of these MMOs are more skill based than math based. I'm not even being sarcastic. Had I known such gems existed my whole outlook on the genre would be a drastic departure from where it stands now.

Comparatively, as far as I know the very way in which these games are executed prohibits them from being more than math games with a miniscule sprinkle of speed (irrelevant if one can overtake one's objective with superior numeric value).

Anxiously awaiting enlightenment.

How do you define "skill"?

You clearly mention reflex, coordination, problem-solving, critical thinking, area awareness, prior planning, and intelligence (both types)... defining those as "skills". Yet, all of those same skills, as defined and offered as examples by you, somehow lose "skill" status when applied to an MMO? Does the introduction of direct competition, the primary facet of the MMO, somehow make those things completely reliant on something that happens 0.2% of the time instead of the player using them? (actually, that last one is "yes", and I'll explain why)

The simple fact is, you need math to be the best. Any moron can jump into Halo or Call of Duty and start shooting people, or play Need for Speed and start crashing cars, but to truly excel at it (especially on a professional level), you need precise details (aka. Math). You need to know exactly how high is your muzzle rise and counterbalance it with drop-off (if there is any). You need to know exactly where your Sniper shot is going to bounce. You need to know exactly how large the rocket launcher explosion is, and where the effect tapers off, so you can accurately target the center of a group and get an Overkill. You need to know precisely how your tires and brakes affect your drift speed and turning radius. You need to know exactly what angle to place the spoiler under which weather conditions to maximize traction without sacrificing top speed. You need to know exactly how fast your vehicle can accelerate under which conditions, and your maximum "safe speed" (as opposed to top speed) with any and all circumstances. There are countless other examples in every game...

All of that is done in your mind and behind the scenes, without you even realizing it. Doing the math, creating those spreadsheets and calculations, bring those impulse reactions into your conscious mind, letting you manipulate and control them. As Sun Tzu said:

"Know your enemy, and you will be strong. Know yourself, and you will be invincible." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

I strongly suggest you look up one David Sirlin, and read his texts on the subject of competition and success.

Oooh, I learned a new word! My raging brainer and I thank you.

No no no no no. I use absolutely no mathematical thinking when I play a first person shooter unless there are role playing elements involved (Mass Effect with cool downs or Alpha Protocol with timers). Math isn't a factor in pinpointing a target or lobbing a grenade. One could argue that in certain cases compensating for angle, distance, and speed of a moving target are mathematical, but one is not using applied math skills for these purposes. I could almost describe what I do as "feeling things out" and I'm generally pretty darned good at this. Am I considering DPS when I shoot at a target? Am I considering how to best whittle down hit points when I am playing Hitman or May Payne? Nope. Point, shoot, dodge, in some cases health meters but the more ambiguous the better, and I suppose there's math there too, but that's much more loosely applied the raw calculation used to master PVP in WoW (of which I was an old hand from vanilla to TBC). In WoW, for example, one had to consider the stats of one's equipment and skills in order to defeat an enemy based on it's numeric value. In a game like Red Dead Redemption, there was little to no consideration given on my part as the player when it came to lassoing a wanted man and dragging him to death on my horse. Guitar Hero? Timing, but I never had to think about the math, in most cases I feel that would have held me back as it was better to have a sense of rhythm and memorization than anything else. What you've described is a deeply reaching, convoluted, and dare I say oddly nonsensical approach to sniping a target. Compensating for distance and velocity? I get that, but there were not +10 boots of the sniper to consider whether or not my bullet was going to damage a target, it was either a kill or a wound, based more on precision than on my math skills, which I am not ashamed to admit are atrocious.

Seriously though, in real life I can see the applications you've mentioned, in a video game, math won't make me better at Infamous or Half Life 2 than reflexes, eye-hand coordination, and patience. MMOs on the other hand, practically demand it.

Pardon the wall of textiness of my post.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Goodness me, where to begin?
mass snip-age

you seem to have riled the locals XD


Vindictus boss fight

DFO, and even level more or less

anyway, there ya go gameplay of both

 

[DracoSuave]

snip

To correct you on WoW. You can have the most mathematically calculated character... you can have every stat PRECISELY calculated to maximum dps, the best gear, and everything absolutely perfect.

And you can absolutely fail do to a lack of timing. WoW is almost like a rhythm game in how you mingle your abilities together, both in going through the regular rotation AND in weaving in proc'd abilities you react to.

On top of this, you have many distractions that try to keep you off this. Oh look, you're standing in fire--now you have to move, which changes what abilities you an use. Oh look, there's a bubble that if you don't stand in you die--now you have to move. Oh look, the boss is about to use an ability that kills anyone casting, now you have to wait for it.

You're constantly reacting to both the environment and your character itself. There is a HUGE element of skill at the high end, where your awareness of your surroundings will determine the possibility of success more than your stats. And where slipping up on your rotation too many times will make completing the encounter impossible due to DPS races.

Healers have to plan their mana-regeneration and how much healing they can put out, throttling and triaging based on the situation and the expectation of the fight.

Tanks have to be concerned not only with being ready when foes appear, but also with positioning their targets so that the encounter is completed successfully.

This has nothing to do with math, this is more understanding the rhythm and flow of what you are dealing with, and it--like any skill--takes practice. It's not math--it's more like music.

 

[Aprilgold]

Goodness me, where to begin?

This is my problem with MMOs. It's really all math and equations, statistical data and efficiency, percentages and raw numeric data. I don't see the fun in that.

I hope you do understand that he choose to do this and that there is more then just numbercrunching right?

Choices amount to a ration of aggro/dps/ and burst damage, all numerically calculated, and choosing how to overlap these and ottehr mathematical attributes in order to successfully whittle the numeric attirbuts of a target object or NPC (be it a buff, health, etc). You can decorate it with all the glitter you like, it's still more math than anything else, and the best players are the ones more keenly aware of how to apply said mathematical equations.

Right, because the best Mario player are people know how to get the most efficient amount of points. Or the best Zelda player is one who knows how to get every rupee. If you want to get into it, every single game ever made, from pong to Call of Skyrim Battle 45 is just a series of mathematical equations.

Your saying that since there exists mathematical equations that it is bad because of it, when every game ever made is pretty much just that.

So explain it and run it by me again, how exactly does the fact there exist Mathematical equations [like every game ever] stop a game from being enjoyable? Is Dark Souls any less difficult even if you went with the most game-breakingly powerful build? Is Mario any less fun because you want to always get a highscore? Is Portal any less creative in its puzzles just because your looking for the fastest way through a test?

All of these can be broken down into mathematical equations, every single one and I can guarantee that you shouldn't be playing video games if you expect them all to be unfun math equations.

So, explain it again, just because there exists Mathematical equations does not mean that a entire genre is terrible. Is every horror film a terrible slasher flick? If you can answer the latter then you have just answered the question "Is a game bad because people can play it to a mathematical perfection?"

 

[2xDouble]

No no no no no. I use absolutely no mathematical thinking when I play a first person shooter unless there are role playing elements involved (Mass Effect with cool downs or Alpha Protocol with timers). Math isn't a factor in pinpointing a target or lobbing a grenade. One could argue that in certain cases compensating for angle, distance, and speed of a moving target are mathematical, but one is not using applied math skills for these purposes. I could almost describe what I do as "feeling things out" and I'm generally pretty darned good at this. Am I considering DPS when I shoot at a target? Am I considering how to best whittle down hit points when I am playing Hitman or May Payne? Nope. Point, shoot, dodge, in some cases health meters but the more ambiguous the better, and I suppose there's math there too, but that's much more loosely applied the raw calculation used to master PVP in WoW (of which I was an old hand from vanilla to TBC). In WoW, for example, one had to consider the stats of one's equipment and skills in order to defeat an enemy based on it's numeric value. In a game like Red Dead Redemption, there was little to no consideration given on my part as the player when it came to lassoing a wanted man and dragging him to death on my horse. Guitar Hero? Timing, but I never had to think about the math, in most cases I feel that would have held me back as it was better to have a sense of rhythm and memorization than anything else. What you've described is a deeply reaching, convoluted, and dare I say oddly nonsensical approach to sniping a target. Compensating for distance and velocity? I get that, but there were not +10 boots of the sniper to consider whether or not my bullet was going to damage a target, it was either a kill or a wound, based more on precision than on my math skills, which I am not ashamed to admit are atrocious.

Seriously though, in real life I can see the applications you've mentioned, in a video game, math won't make me better at Infamous or Half Life 2 than reflexes, eye-hand coordination, and patience. MMOs on the other hand, practically demand it.

Pardon the wall of textiness of my post.

Pardon me for correcting you, but, that's exactly what you're thinking. Just because you're not running numbers and equations through your mind does not mean you aren't doing math. You absolutely are considering angle of attack (in three dimensions, no less), trajectories of grenades/rounds/enemies/yourself, position of attack & defenses of the target (including total and partial cover, armor power-ups, covering fire, etc.)... all of which translate into DPS equations. For example: you know it will take three shots to the chest to kill an enemy, two in the chest from behind, but only one to the head. There is a more powerful weapon nearby that can drop the target in one shot regardless, and a high probability of enemies nearby who can kill you instantly if they see you. How many shots will it take to bring down your enemy without getting yourself killed? All of that, my friend, is DPS calculation.

You're doing it intrinsically, "without even thinking". I'm saying you have the ability to focus that and command it even better than you do, by understanding how it works and why. Like all math, there comes a point where you don't need to bust out the calculator; you just know.

On the other hand, I'm sitting here trying to explain that physics and trigonometry are identical to statistics and spreadsheets... (Oh wait, this is a video game; they are. heh.)

Steering this back to the topic at-hand, Have you ever tried League of Legends? It offers a fine example of GW2-like combat systems; LoL's influences are felt throughout the game.

 

[Smertnik]

I find it somewhat crazy how people can level so fast. I'm still at level 17
I also have to wonder what even the point of rushing to the end level would be. It's not like it's required for anything.

Still, kudos to the guy.

 

[Icehearted]

you seem to have riled the locals XD

Not even intending to do so, and to be honest most of these justifications, comparisons, and counterpoints have been pretty inaccurate. I feel like I would have been better off simply disavowing this conversation, I can't even tell if I'm being screwed with or what (I don't think I am, it just really seems like that.

General replay follows:
Colors are math, jokes are math, flatulence is math, things that aren't math are math if you want them to be math, which isn't to say that anything I've just said is not math, only that it's all evidently math because you can find some convoluted and extremely far-reaching way to tie these things together. I've seen conspiracy theorists talk about how junk food caused the 9/11 attacks and at least seem more sensible than some of the arguments here. Not dodging, just not sure how else to respond to fatuity of this caliber (no offense... even if for some reason offense seems implied).

I've made my statements, you've offered almost nothing to the contrary, what more can I actually say without repeating what I've already said? Shooters? Not about math. Platforming games? Not about math (score efficiency? You've got to be yanking me here). I concede racing games, for example, but only in a very loose sense. FFS GTA4? Really? Because you have to calculate friction against velocity, inertia, whatever? That's exactly the logic that dictates that the way I swallow water is a mathematical activity because I must likewise consider much the same thing. That's solid-gold bullshit. Not really sure what more I can say about it. Sure it's all math, and Doritos made terrorists ram planes into buildings.

Spoiler: Also.... please do not click this if you plan on replying, at least until you've already replied...

For the love of [insert deity] I hope nobody attempts to play the weak-handed straw man card. I'm [hyperbolic adjective goes here] sick of seeing that cop out. And if you are reading this and still intend on replying anyway, I asked you not to for a reason, I'm sure you can see why if you do the math.

 

[Lunar Templar]

you seem to have riled the locals XD

Not even intending to do so, and to be honest most of these justifications, comparisons, and counterpoints have been pretty inaccurate. I feel like I would have been better off simply disavowing this conversation, I can't even tell if I'm being screwed with or what (I don't think I am, it just really seems like that.

yeah the FPS argument was pretty lame, only math skill i can see applying there is geometry cause of grenades, cause of angles and such and even that's stretching it a bit.

also, and don't take this the wrong way, doesn't help you don't really sound like you know what your taking about ^^;; sorry it just doesn't. it sounds like the arguments of some one who's spent next to no time with the games, and more importantly, is blind to the fact developers are FINALLY starting to figure out "Hey, copying WoW isn't working, we should try something else" with games like

Champions Online
DC Universe Online
Tera
Vindictus
Guild Wars 2

who in terms of actual game play, are wildly different then WoW, and when you start adding a level of required skill to play, like they have been, even in the ones where the math 'matters still' like the top 3 (DCUO is literally all about raid->gear->bigger raid at the cap) you can still get away with being under geared if you got the skills

 

[Mr F.]

Some people and studios alike put way too much focus of an MMORPG on the Endgame. I will freely admit that having a solid endgame is the most important part of keeping folks playing your MMO, but at the same time people who just rush to the endgame are missing out on a lot, unless the developer didn't bother making the journey to the endgame engaging.

I'm not going to deny that people should be able to play how they want to play, but I think rushing to the endgame is the perfect way to quickly find yourself bored of the game and moving on to something else.

This is sorta why I gave up on WoW.

The focus on the endgame meant that if you wanted to try out a new character you had an insane slog through the rest of the game before you got to anything that "Mattered". Yet Blizzards answer to this was to make leveling even faster. Sure, it meant that you got to 70/80/85 (I played for a loooong time) much faster but imo a better response would have been to beef up the fun to be had getting to level cap rather then making it ludicrously easy *grumbles*

I mean these days it takes about as long to get from 1-80 as it did to get from 1-45 back when I started. Which is just dull. You barely see any content and what you see is dull as fuck.

Endgame is always going to be where the most content is. I mean, you have to keep those who get there engaged and all. But one of the main reasons I gave up on MMO's as a genre was the focus on endgame, the focus on gear, the focus on endless raids with people who take themselves and the game way too seriously.

The most fun I ever had in WoW (And this is speaking as an ex raider who killed just about every boss (Including LK on heroic) up to Cata when I got bored of the game) was as a level 12 gnome trying to get to Orgrimmar with a few friends. I guess that was off topic. But still. The point is that leveling is, by the by, a means to an end and fucking dull. If an MMO could handle the content properly instead of gearing everything, every patch, every dungeon towards level capped people... Well, I guess I could boot one up again.

 

[Woodsey]

Wait, you can level up by not fighting? Like... do other things to level up?

...

Alright, now I'm interested.

Apparently exploration dishes out the largest XP. Still trying to discern just how different a game it is though - some claim the grind is defeated and absent, others that it's merely masked.

Still, it costs an arm and a leg and a testicle at the minute, so I'll wait.

 

[Icehearted]

you seem to have riled the locals XD

Not even intending to do so, and to be honest most of these justifications, comparisons, and counterpoints have been pretty inaccurate. I feel like I would have been better off simply disavowing this conversation, I can't even tell if I'm being screwed with or what (I don't think I am, it just really seems like that.

yeah the FPS argument was pretty lame, only math skill i can see applying there is geometry cause of grenades, cause of angles and such and even that's stretching it a bit.

also, and don't take this the wrong way, doesn't help you don't really sound like you know what your taking about ^^;; sorry it just doesn't. it sounds like the arguments of some one who's spent next to no time with the games, and more importantly, is blind to the fact developers are FINALLY starting to figure out "Hey, copying WoW isn't working, we should try something else" with games like

Champions Online
DC Universe Online
Tera
Vindictus
Guild Wars 2

who in terms of actual game play, are wildly different then WoW, and when you start adding a level of required skill to play, like they have been, even in the ones where the math 'matters still' like the top 3 (DCUO is literally all about raid->gear->bigger raid at the cap) you can still get away with being under geared if you got the skills

I've probably played about 12 or so different MMOs mostly following the same formula (most of them free to play). Of the ones you'd listed, I've only tried DCUO. GW2 is on my radar (don't really see much departure from the tired "let's math and grind to win" formula though), but the reason and logic part of my brain insists I avoid anything that new, since MMOs, including the original Guild Wars (one I have also played extensively), see dramatic changes after release, as if the game was not really developed properly until a year or longer after it's release date (Star Wars Galaxies being the biggest example of what I mean).

I've even had a chance to try out Blade and Soul; dps, timers, math.

I feel "wildly" might be overstating things but in a sense I can agree that while the presentation is different, stat grinding remains generally how one wins these things. If I don't really sound as though I know what I am talking about, it might be simply because I'm coming across as vague (deliberately so). They all really do bleed together, in more than a few ways they're the same beast wearing different skins each time. A gimmick, a twist, men in tights, lightsabers, more "action" base play, each time the sense of sameness really did rear it's head for me.

As for the rest of those titles you'd listed, I'm willing to give them a shot (though in many circles they have not been compared favorably to games I have played in the past). I genuinely hope they prove your point, because indeed, that sense of been there done that has made even the one's I wanted to try out seem sour before I could even hit the install button. I just can't get excited about playing World of whatever all over again, whatever the re-skin.

 

[Lunar Templar]

As for the rest of those titles you'd listed, I'm willing to give them a shot (though in many circles they have not been compared favorably to games I have played in the past). I genuinely hope they prove your point, because indeed, that sense of been there done that has made even the one's I wanted to try out seem sour before I could even hit the install button. I just can't get excited about playing World of whatever all over again, whatever the re-skin.

fair enough.

also, only one i really recommend off that list, is Vindictus

and your kinda right about the 'action game play' just hiding the math in some of these games (and the grind, but its an MMO). and I'm really ok with that. it makes the game more engaging from my standpoint, and the grind they tend to use, more fun. i played a lot of FPS games to, before settling on my 3, so i get where your coming from, but at the same time, i kept looking from something that at least played different.

and to be honest, i think all we can realistically ask for is it to play different the WoW and its clones.

sides

any action based MMO to come out is playing catch up to Vin in terms of combat anyway.