Guild Wars 2 Preview

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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ResonanceSD said:
Shjade said:
Considering the way I play other MMOs is already "kite everything," I don't think "circle-strafe everything" is going to present a deep challenge.
Gw has kd's. Everything uses them. Spells, skills, attacks, shouts. You can't just kite.
Tanakh said:
And you will fail, kite is not really an option due:

- Mobs having snares

- Mobs resetting their aggro and their health much faster than normal

- Mobs usually attacking in packs

This game isn't kite friendly at all
And yet, looking at the combat tactics used in this very review video...

Fight #1: very straightforward kiting via backpedaling & rolling.
Fight #2: nuking a target that isn't looking at him.
Fight #3: hard to tell what's going on, but looks like stand-there-and-shoot-it aside from when he spontaneously blows up.
Fight #4: shooting a target that isn't looking at him; when it looks at him, reverts to fight 1 strategy (backward roll kiting).
Fight #5: more backward/strafe rolling.
Fight #6: ambush into what I assume is his full combo. No movement, nothing seemingly out of the ordinary for MMORPG rogue-style ambush of a solo target. He jumps on it, he unloads all his attacks, it's dead, he moves on to the next one.
Fight #7: stands around for a while, then throws a rock. >.>
Fight #8: alternates between "stand and nuke" and "roll to the side." "Don't stand in fire," anyone?
Fight #9: see Fight #1.
Fight #10: attempts to be Fight #1; is thwarted by architecture, so resorts to stand-there-and-trade-attacks like you'd expect to see in 90% of MMORPG's.
Fight #11: nuke while strafing/backpedaling.
Fight #12: group nuking down a few bandits with no apparent coordination, just unloading on them.

Yeah, you're right, I don't know how I ever got the impression that "shoot them while staying out of range" (aka: kiting) would ever be a valid strategy in this game. Truly, my eyes have been opened to the broad range and depth of tactical options necessary for success.
 

Section Crow

Infamous Scribbler for Life
Aug 26, 2009
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i haven't played a MMO since WoW about 3-4 years ago...

and i'd be lying if i wasn't interested in this one
 

2xDouble

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Mar 15, 2010
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Shjade said:
Considering the way I play other MMOs is already "kite everything," I don't think "circle-strafe everything" is going to present a deep challenge.
Good. Keep thinking that while you play. Just don't play a Charr in the Blood Legion and you'll do fine. ...or a Cunning Norn. ...or a Human Commoner who lost a sister to Centaurs.

Maybe you'll reach Guild Wars 2 zen, maybe you won't. Either way, you'll be having fun, even if it's only the fun of "proving" everyone else "wrong".

Play the game and see for yourself.
 

RedFeather1975

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Apr 26, 2008
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Shjade, the featured video shown was only level 2-9 gameplay.
Kiting was often seen in early levels as the enemies are simple, and people found it easier than melee. Melee requires using blocks, CC, proper timing of dodges to conserve endurance.

PvE enemies at higher levels also start doing block and dodge rolls. They also start to hit hard with their ranged attacks. I seen a video of a thief in higher level PvE and they had to swap between ranged and melee often. And in melee they had to carefully use their spin to flank, and leap over the enemy type moves to keep from getting surrounded.

Also at higher levels, learning combos is really important as they actually are really effective. Those require planning and positioning.
Here's some simple combos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AHUkAXPdvU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMYO4YF6iE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2qBWEcgdk

Game gets hard fast and many videos really don't showcase all the player deaths that happen unless you really learn to find the nuances of combat.
 

RoyalWelsh

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Feb 14, 2010
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This is a good looking game and looks like alot of fun, especially the pvp, plus there is no monthly fee.
Defo getting this.
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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2xDouble said:
Maybe you'll reach Guild Wars 2 zen, maybe you won't. Either way, you'll be having fun, even if it's only the fun of "proving" everyone else "wrong".

Play the game and see for yourself.
Proving others wrong isn't fun for me. It isn't even the point. I'm just asking for an explanation of what makes this game's combat so much different from that of other MMORPGs I've played when, from all descriptions and appearances, it seems extremely similar aside from maybe one or two mechanics that are emphasized more than where they are present in other games (rolling/evasion being an often-used low cooldown ability rather than a long cooldown panic button like a WoW hunter's Disengage, for instance). Thus far there hasn't really been one, just a lot of "it's great, play it," which is nice and all, but doesn't really support an argument.

As for the game, I'm hoping they release it with a free trial first. Not so much to test the gameplay - it looks fun - but to test game performance. I'm riding the red line of the minimum requirements and I've already seen people saying it seemed to chug somewhat performance-wise during the beta, which makes me wonder if it'd run well enough to be worth picking up on my machine.
 
Feb 28, 2008
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Have gone from having no knowledge / interest in this game to now actually considering buying it. Not sure whether to thank you for informing me, or despise you for possibly ruining my free time ...
 

Tanakh

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Shjade said:
I'm just asking for an explanation of what makes this game's combat so much different from that of other MMORPGs I've played when, from all descriptions and appearances, it seems extremely similar aside from maybe one or two mechanics that are emphasized more than where they are present in other games (rolling/evasion being an often-used low cooldown ability rather than a long cooldown panic button like a WoW hunter's Disengage, for instance). Thus far there hasn't really been one, just a lot of "it's great, play it," which is nice and all, but doesn't really support an argument.
I probably can help you with that but you need to be more specific, what makes it different from which MMO and in what aspect? Leveling PvE? Battlegrounds? RvR?

The more specific you are the more satisfying answer I will try to craft. BTW, all are old ideas, i don't think i saw a genuenly new idea in GW 2, the implementation however is amazing.
 

2xDouble

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Shjade said:
I'm just asking for an explanation of what makes this game's combat so much different from that of other MMORPGs I've played when, from all descriptions and appearances, it seems extremely similar aside from maybe one or two mechanics that are emphasized more than where they are present in other games (rolling/evasion being an often-used low cooldown ability rather than a long cooldown panic button like a WoW hunter's Disengage, for instance). Thus far there hasn't really been one, just a lot of "it's great, play it," which is nice and all, but doesn't really support an argument.

As for the game, I'm hoping they release it with a free trial first. Not so much to test the gameplay - it looks fun - but to test game performance. I'm riding the red line of the minimum requirements and I've already seen people saying it seemed to chug somewhat performance-wise during the beta, which makes me wonder if it'd run well enough to be worth picking up on my machine.
Guild Wars 2 combat can't be described accurately. On paper, it's nothing special in comparison to an amalgam of "other MMOs". But in practice, in combination with all of the different mechanics (i.e.: smarter AI, deceptively complex aggro mechanics, dynamic events, party and teamwork mechanics including the skill combo system, active movement and positioning mechanics, no root animations or global cooldowns, fluid skill chaining anims, leveling systems ensuring no content gets "used up") it's amazing. The only way to get real understanding, it must be experienced.

Game performance hasn't been optimized yet. The recent beta test had the graphics CPU-locked, which causes massive lagging on certain setups. Closer to release, when optimization is completed, it will run significantly smoother on a wide range of systems, including my horribly outdated rig (which ran the recent tests comparatively well on maximum settings, incidentally).

There may or may not be a trial system in place upon release, though there is a high probability of one. Release details are nowhere near finalized (because it's still in beta testing).
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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Tanakh said:
BTW, all are old ideas, i don't think i saw a genuenly new idea in GW 2, the implementation however is amazing.
Actually, that answers my question right there, as it confirms what I thought: fun, but not ground-breaking.

2xDouble said:
Game performance hasn't been optimized yet. The recent beta test had the graphics CPU-locked, which causes massive lagging on certain setups. Closer to release, when optimization is completed, it will run significantly smoother on a wide range of systems, including my horribly outdated rig (which ran the recent tests comparatively well on maximum settings, incidentally).

There may or may not be a trial system in place upon release, though there is a high probability of one. Release details are nowhere near finalized (because it's still in beta testing).
Well hooray for that, optimistic though it may be.
 

Tanakh

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Shjade said:
Tanakh said:
BTW, all are old ideas, i don't think i saw a genuenly new idea in GW 2, the implementation however is amazing.
Actually, that answers my question right there, as it confirms what I thought: fun, but not ground-breaking.
Suit urself, but i don't remember a single new idea in the last 10 years of videogames so that ain't saying much, even longer if you are talking about AAA titles.
 

RedFeather1975

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Apr 26, 2008
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Shjade, I hope they do have a trial so anyone can test it out on their computer. And I hope they optimize it better. Just hoping lots and lots of people get a chance to play it and have fun too. I had fun, but I don't plan on marrying the game.

I really want GW2 to hurt other mmorpg game's subscription numbers. I know that sounds spiteful, but I have a history with mmos that made me grow to feel they need to change or fail.

I used to play EQ2 and WoW for years and years, and overtime it really began to insult my intelligence by how these mmos are at their core the same thing. And how often that design is directed towards thoroughly exploiting online gaming addiction, and convincing gamers that mmorpgs need to stay that way or fail.
I want GW2 to showcase to aspiring mmorpg developers that they need to rethink what mmorpg can mean. To think about whether the game they are planning on making is actually fun, and not just some attractive/addictive candy-coated MUD.
 

EmperorSubcutaneous

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Dec 22, 2010
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Shjade said:
Tanakh said:
BTW, all are old ideas, i don't think i saw a genuenly new idea in GW 2, the implementation however is amazing.
Actually, that answers my question right there, as it confirms what I thought: fun, but not ground-breaking.
Consider it like this: GW2 takes all the best parts of previous MMOs (the PvP of DAOC, the public quests of WAR, and so on), as well as other games (TF2 being a big inspiration), combines them, and then improves on them even more. You may have seen most of their ideas before, but never all in one place and never done so well.

There are new ideas, but they aren't things that you would notice immediately (overflow shards instead of queues, for example). Though it depends on what you consider "new" because you could claim that that's just another form of instancing. (If you go that far, though, there hasn't been a new idea in video games in decades.)
 

BENZOOKA

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Oct 26, 2009
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It seems promising and might just be the first MMO, after WoW for two months in 2004, that I'll get into. Especially as you don't have to pay for playing time. But we'll see and I won't decide anything until there's a release date and I'm not crazy about another RPG. Getting to try out the beta would also be great.
 

Master10K

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Feb 12, 2010
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My biggest attraction to Guild Wars 2 has to be the World vs World. This video should give anyone a taste of what to expect (if you have a good group to play with).

 

instantbenz

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Mar 25, 2009
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Maguuma was doing well wvw-wise, but i'm less interested in wvw having played the beta ... at least when you start ... i'm down with being in a huge group and rocking a path of destruction, but i'm just interested in learning the economy now ... the beta event was super fun and informative. i've been waiting for the game for so long, it seems surreal that it'll be out soon
 

Skyy High

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Shjade said:
2xDouble said:
Maybe you'll reach Guild Wars 2 zen, maybe you won't. Either way, you'll be having fun, even if it's only the fun of "proving" everyone else "wrong".

Play the game and see for yourself.
Proving others wrong isn't fun for me. It isn't even the point. I'm just asking for an explanation of what makes this game's combat so much different from that of other MMORPGs I've played when, from all descriptions and appearances, it seems extremely similar aside from maybe one or two mechanics that are emphasized more than where they are present in other games (rolling/evasion being an often-used low cooldown ability rather than a long cooldown panic button like a WoW hunter's Disengage, for instance). Thus far there hasn't really been one, just a lot of "it's great, play it," which is nice and all, but doesn't really support an argument.
How's this for an explanation:
In my experience with WoW, you simply did not have the abilities to survive against and kill anything about 3-5 levels above you. The fight was absolutely impossible, regardless of your spec, because the monsters would resist your CC and their attacks were unavoidable in any way, and they'd inevitably win the shin-kicking contest.

In my time in GW2, I used a thief (relatively squishy, medium armor and low health) class to solo lvl10 personal story quests as a lvl5, lvl13 quests as a lvl8, and lvl18 quests as a lvl12. These are quests that, if you read the forums like Guru and the official forum, other people were having trouble completing, even with characters of the appropriate level. Why was I able to beat them? Because you're given the tools to do so, and I used them. Yes, I'd get one-shotted if I ever got hit, and it was completely up to me to dodge, snare, evade, and kite. There are no percent chances to block or evade; every time that happens, it's because you used a skill at the right time to make it happen. The mobs don't auto-resist your CC (though you do do significantly less damage to higher-leveled foes), so if you play perfectly you can fight foes that are far above your level.

Yeah, if you fight low-leveled stuff, or stuff that's at or below your level, you can pretty much do any of the open-world content by circle-strafing and using your abilities on cooldown. That's basically what the review video shows. So what? It's an MMO, not everyone is a power gamer who wants to push themselves. The point is that the combat system allows for a very high skill cap even in PvE, because the game isn't cheating by making the mobs immune to all of your spells or making all of their attacks unavoidable. If you're sitting there bored spamming your abilities on cooldown, move on to the next area and push yourself harder; you absolutely are not expected or required to complete all the DEs in one area before you explore a different one.

And dungeons? Dungeons aren't going to pull any punches; they WILL expect you to play to the best of your ability. We have videos of players trying out the lowest level dungeon in the game, and it's brutally difficult.

So...yeah, that's the difference. GW2 combat is different because it gives you a set of tools and forces you to figure out how to make the best of them, and if you can use them well you can do a lot with a very limited skill set. If you die, you know exactly why you died, and you know that it was (probably) avoidable.

MetalHandkerchief said:
When I saw this claim, before the image loaded on the front page, I thought this article was about The Secret World, not GW2. Having played both, it's most true for the prior.
I've never played TSW, but I'm not sure how you can claim that GW2 doesn't make it easy to play with anyone around you. It's the first open-world MMO I've ever played where you're not actively punished for playing with other people in the open world, while just doing "normal" leveling content. Help kill a mob? Full XP and loot, no partying required. Help with an event? XP, gold, and karma based on participation, even if you came in late or left early. See a resource node? They're instanced for you, so no need to race anyone there. The overflow server issue definitely needs to be looked at, but other than that, playing together (not necessarily the same as grouping up) was so simple and rewarding for even the most basic of content. It's probably the biggest improvement over "traditional" MMOs in the game, IMO, in terms of PvE at least.
 

Easton Dark

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Jan 2, 2011
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Well, now I'm pretty sold on this. Looking forward to the release.

I hope they sell it on steam soon after launch.