Guns : A simple solution

[M-E-D The Poet]

I've been seeing way to many threads about this lately.
So I want to draw a conclusion here from what I've seen

People pro guns say :
We want to defend ourselves.
Weapons protect as much as they attack.
When we sell the guns we know who owns them(meaning crime should be easier to detect).
Guns don't kill people, people kill people
Owning guns can be a Hobby
I like to hunt hunting is not illegal, for hunting I need guns.
I like to shoot at the shooting range, it's a hobby
2nd Amendment(for americans)

Any solid arguments to add here I will consider but none will change the outcome of the discussion.

People anti guns say :
Guns should not be freely available
Guns cause death
Civilians do not need assault rifles
Guns are nothing but tools of destruction (they serve no other purpose)
You don't need an armory if you're owning a gun for self defense.

Any solid arguments to add here I will consider but none will change the outcome of the discussion.

The moot point here seems to be : I want to protect vs I don't want people to get hurt.

I think the conclusion should be its absurd to own anything other than a shotgun(People have pointed out this is the most effective and least obscure Home defense tool) unless you're a licensed huntsman which should allow you a rifle, or a soldier which should allow you any weapon you've been trained to use as long as you're on duty.

My point being : Banning all guns just like banning all drugs and all alcohol only leads to people obtaining them illegaly and overpowering people with ease who wouldn't ever dream of stepping into that world.
Gun sales to civilians should be limited to Shotguns/Rifles. Well documented,Well registered and fairly supplied.

For example : A Johnny likes to hunt in his spare time, he lives in a woodland area and has made a request at the gun store for a hunting rifle, Johnny is allowed to buy and keep this rifle.
We're not putting all too tight restrictions on the ammo we sell to Johnny because he's a huntsman and we have no idea of how skilled he is.

B Ben wants something to defend his home, he feels as an american that this is his right.
We offer Ben the option for A shotgun and a limited amount of ammo, even in a brawl Ben has no use for a world supply in shells.

C Jason likes to go to the shooting range and test his skill, Jason is allowed a rifle but is required to empty his magazine/cartridge/etc before he leaves the range(or is even supposed to store his weapon there)


This idea allows Johnny, Ben and Jason to each keep doing what they love without harming other people.

The point here now is that any gun owned/used outside of this demographic is illegal and owning them would be endangering to the law being put at risk for fines or jail when owning them.

Rifles/Shotguns are not easily concealed and thus when we wish to protect we protect and when someone chooses the offence he might think twice when seeing what you have in store for him

 

[Luna]

Yeah. I don't see the point in civilians owning automatic weapons anyway. The only problem with this is if a civilian is unable to defend themselves against a criminal with an automatic weapon due to their weapon not being powerful enough, but the benefits probably outweigh the costs.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Well, then it comes down to how effective a handgun will be against the criminal that got his hands on the assult rifle. I'd say just put the more powerfull stuff behind a fuck ton of restrictions, but still allow them to be bought.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

I could go with limited to handguns and/or rifles. Rifles being long-rifles and shotguns. You can keep your AR-15s and such. I have no need for them, and I think it'd work out just fine. Most hunters don't use such heavy hardware to my knowledge, again preferring rifles and shotguns. The simple way I'd put it would be: If it's military-surplus, you really don't need it. I guess they're fun to have around and all, but from a collection standpoint, I don't see the allure of 'tactical' stuff. Sorry kids, I don't think the Zombie Apocalypse is ever coming. There's no need for you to have enough arms for a SWAT team in your gun-safe. You wanna hunt, shoot targets at a range, or blow up some clays? Sounds good. But what are you really doing with your AK-47s and that other madness? I've begun to think it's just another e-peen thing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah. I don't see the point in civilians owning automatic weapons anyway. The only problem with this is if a civilian is unable to defend themselves against a criminal with an automatic weapon due to their weapon not being powerful enough, but the benefits probably outweigh the costs.

In the US, the only automatic weapons that can legally be owned by civilians are those registered before May 1986, and those are very thing on the ground.

 

[tippy2k2]

What you've got up there pretty much sums up my view on guns.

You can't ban guns in America at this point. There are just too many out there already circulating and banning them will do very little. Also, if you intend to ban them AND try to take the ones already out there away, I am personally convinced that THIS would cause a new civil war in America.

Rifles, shotguns, and handguns should be allowed (all being semi-automatic). There are valid reasons for all of these weapons and they can have minimized damage if turned on people (minimized as opposed to fully auto and high powered weaponry that is). To obtain one of these weapons, I believe that there should be a background check, required training (like how you have to get a hunting license), and mandatory waiting periods to allow time for these things to happen.

These giant ammo cases (like the 100-shot magazine used by you-know-who) should just be banned. If you are hunting something and you need 100 shots, you are either a very bad hunter or you have somehow slipped into Skyrim and are currently fighting a dragon. I can't think of any valid reasons why a civilian would need such a large clip.

I can't see the use for automatic weaponry for civilians either. Maybe someone will come out with a valid reason for this but I sure as hell can't think of any (unless of course you're back at it with the dragon, in which case put down the laptop and start shooting at that damn dragon before he burns you to death!).

Will there still be gun-crime with these in place? Obviously but I feel that this can help minimize the damage done. But hey, I don't own a gun (though I have done clay pigeon shooting and intend to get my hunting license this year if that helps) and I care minimally about this debate so what do I know?

 

[Anget Colslaw]

Honestly, I'm okay with this idea. If I ever buy a gun, it'd be a handgun anyway.

 

[Kayden Riggs]

You're right. Civilians should only use Molotovs like they do in Starcraft 2.
That way they can take over the Dominion and Ariel can save "her people".
Any thoughts?

 

[burningdragoon]

You know, there are plenty of ways to argue for or against gun control that are well thought out and have some sound reasoning. Now, I'm pretty terrible formulating my thoughts into something useful, so you won't often see me arguing about too many things. So that being said, your conclusion is potentially fine, but your argument has pretty much just been "because... seriously, c'mon", which isn't a very strong argument.

 

[TheFinish]

Yeah. I don't see the point in civilians owning automatic weapons anyway. The only problem with this is if a civilian is unable to defend themselves against a criminal with an automatic weapon due to their weapon not being powerful enough, but the benefits probably outweigh the costs.

In the US, the only automatic weapons that can legally be owned by civilians are those registered before May 1986, and those are very thing on the ground.

What's the stance on Machine Pistols, like the Glock 18 or the Steyr TMP? I'm always curious about that when people start talking about automatic weapons.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

1. Implementing this wouldn't be easy. That would require the buy back of several tens of millions if not a hundred million, firearms, since many people own multiple firearms, and the US constitution requires the government to compensate if they take property. Since guns were bought when they were legal

2. Most crimes are not are not done with shotguns and rifles. This study (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF ) 86% of gun crimes involved handguns, not shotguns or rifles.

3. Having multiple weapons doesn't make another person more dangerous. If I am going to shoot you, I would only need one gun. I cannot lug around a small game .22 rifle, a large game .357 rifle, a range toy AR-15, a skeet shooting shotgun, a home defense shotgun, a .357 hunting back up revolver, and a 9mm carry piece. One gun in my hand is the only one I need to end a life

4. Legal fully automatic firearms are NEVER used in crimes. Literally no legally aquired fully automatic gun has been used in a crime in the United States since 1930. Any cases of them either were illegal modified and/or bought, or it was a policeman using a fully automatic service weapon.

5. Guns do have many other uses. Target shooting, defense (many crimes have been stopped with just waving the gun and not pulling the trigger), hunting, and trick shooting.

6. Assault Rifles based firearms are not liked because they are deadlier than other rifles, but either A. we like the cometic design, B. the designs are good and reliable. The Saiga Semi-automatic Rifle and Saiga Semi-automatic are popular not because they are based on Ak-47 and is best choice if you absolutely have to clear a room, but because the design is hardy, reliable, and easy to maintain. They are great for hunting and almost will never jam because of mud or dirt.

 

[DC1]

In Massachusetts, you have to be 18 to get rifles and shotguns, and 21 to get handguns. I believe that handguns could actually be more dangerous than a shotgun because you can just keep it concealed, than run up close and pump someone full of lead. A shotgun you can see coming. That said, I don't we should make firearms illegal, but people don't need to own full-auto assault rifles.

 

[DC1]

In Massachusetts, you have to be 18 to get rifles and shotguns, and 21 to get handguns. I believe that handguns could actually be more dangerous than a shotgun because you can just keep it concealed, than run up close and pump someone full of lead. A shotgun you can see coming. That said, I don't we should make firearms illegal, but people don't need to own full-auto assault rifles.

 

[DC1]

Yeah. I don't see the point in civilians owning automatic weapons anyway. The only problem with this is if a civilian is unable to defend themselves against a criminal with an automatic weapon due to their weapon not being powerful enough, but the benefits probably outweigh the costs.

In the US, the only automatic weapons that can legally be owned by civilians are those registered before May 1986, and those are very thing on the ground.

What's the stance on Machine Pistols, like the Glock 18 or the Steyr TMP? I'm always curious about that when people start talking about automatic weapons.

I'm pretty sure those are considered assault weapons because you can keep the trigger depressed and it will continually fire. So I think they're illegal.

 

[SpAc3man]

Only problem is handguns are easy to conceal and are designed for shooting people.
Here is how we do it in New Zealand:

Spoiler: From Wikipedia

Categories of firearms
Firearms in New Zealand fall into one of four categories:
Pistols are firearms shorter than 762 mm (30 in).
Restricted Weapons include machine guns, selective-fire assault rifles, grenades and rocket launchers. This category also includes some non-firearm weapons such as pepper spray. Cabinet can declare things to be restricted weapons by regulation.
Military-Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs) include semi-automatic rifles and shotguns that have one or more of the following components:
A folding or telescopic butt
A bayonet lug
A military pattern free-standing pistol grip
A flash suppressor
A magazine that holds (or looks like it could hold) more than 15 rounds of .22 rimfire ammunition or 7 rounds of a centrefire calibre.
A Category firearms are those that do not fall into any other category, and are the vast majority of legally-owned firearms in New Zealand.
Registration is not required under the law but the police carry out a regime similar to registration for all but "A Category" firearms. Firearms in any other category require a "permit to procure" before they are transferred.
Except under supervision of a licence holder, owning or using firearms requires a firearms licence from the police. The licence is normally issued, under the conditions that the applicant has secure storage for firearms, attends a safety lecture and passes a written safety test. The police will also interview the applicant and two referees (one must be a close relative and the other not related) to determine whether the applicant is "fit and proper" to have a firearm. The applicant's residence is also visited to check that they have appropriate storage for firearms and ammunition. Having criminal associations or a history of domestic violence almost always leads to a licence being declined.
A standard firearms licence allows the use of "A Category" firearms. To possess firearms of another category a person is required to get an endorsement to their licence. There are different endorsements for different classes of firearm but they all require a higher level of storage security, stricter vetting requirements and the applicant must have a 'special reason' for wanting the endorsement.
Each endorsement type has additional requirements
B Endorsement - Target (Competition) pistols
Applicant must be a current member of a pistol club, a financial member of Pistol New Zealand (or in some cases membership of an approved club) and have attended at least 12 club shoots in the last 6 months before they can apply
Applicant must be sponsored by their club
The endorsement holder must attend at least 12 club activities (either at their home club or to another recognised club) in a financial year
Normally limited to no more than 12 pistols registered to their licence
Pistols must be of an approved sporting type i.e. barrel length of more than 10 cm (3.9 in)
Pistols can only be carried to and from the range in a locked container with ammunition in a separate container or to a gunsmith
Pistols may only be shot on a Police approved pistol club range.
C Endorsement - Restricted Weapons Pistols can also be held on the C endorsement instead of the B. Common special reasons include:
Collecting (must provide evidence in the form of books, club membership, collection of A type firearms), Museum curator, Family heirlooms and Theatrical.
C category firearms must be stored in an inoperable condition
Can never be used with live ammunition, but blanks are allowed for movie making and re-enacting
Can only be taken to an approved display venue, re-enactment event or to another collector for sale.
D Endorsement - Dealers licence
For those that make an income from firearms. To sell restricted weapons the dealer also needs to have the appropriate endorsements.
Renewed annually
Further security requirements
Must maintain a record (usually a book or register) of firearm purchases and sales.
E Endorsement - Military Style Semi-Automatics (M.S.S.A)
New class of restricted weapon that was created after the Aramoana tragedy. At the time anyone with an M.S.S.A that wanted to keep it in that configuration was given a E endorsement (after going through the vetting and extra security requirements). But presently few are issued. Common reasons for wanting an E endorsement are professional pest destruction, collecting, 3-gun and service rifle shooting. Those people that did not want the extra hassle and expense of the endorsement converted their rifles into 'A' configuration by removing the components that made it an 'E'.
F Endorsement - Dealers Staff Licence
This class allows a person working for a dealer to demonstrate a Pistol, Military Style Semi Automatic or a Collectable weapon without having to have that class of licence. They can demonstrate one but not possess one for personal use. This is not a well known endorsement
[edit]Buying and selling
Anyone buying firearms or ammunition, whether privately or from a dealer, needs to show their firearms licence. In addition, a permit to procure must be obtained prior to the transfer of pistols, military-style semi-automatics and restricted weapons. Sales can be made by mail-order, but a police officer must sign the order form to verify that the purchaser has a firearms licence.

All seems pretty logical. Our gun crime rate is very low.

 

[aba1]

I have said it before and I will say it again I don't care if the US wants their guns as long as they keep them to themselves... which they do not. They really should take more responsibility for keeping track of the weapons they produce and keep them to themselves.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah. I don't see the point in civilians owning automatic weapons anyway. The only problem with this is if a civilian is unable to defend themselves against a criminal with an automatic weapon due to their weapon not being powerful enough, but the benefits probably outweigh the costs.

In the US, the only automatic weapons that can legally be owned by civilians are those registered before May 1986, and those are very thing on the ground.

What's the stance on Machine Pistols, like the Glock 18 or the Steyr TMP? I'm always curious about that when people start talking about automatic weapons.

Automatic pistols are, well, automatic[footnote]Actually, no, the term "automatic" in regards to pistols can mean self-loading, what we normally use "semi-automatic" to mean[/footnpte]

If they are capable of firing more than one bullet with one pull of the trigger, they count as machine guns and are heavily restricted, need one registered before May 1986. Doesn't matter if they are machine pistols or assault rifles or double barreled rifles that fire both barrels at once.

Now, the type of weapon they are may mean that it was difficult/impossible to get them registered before that cut off point, though.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm pretty sure those are considered assault weapons because you can keep the trigger depressed and it will continually fire. So I think they're illegal.

Not true, assault weapons are semi-automatic rifles, either with certain added extra features, or from a list of semi-automatic rifles that have been deemed to be assault weapons even if they don't have them (the federal definition didn't have that, though).

 

[M-E-D The Poet]

You know, there are plenty of ways to argue for or against gun control that are well thought out and have some sound reasoning. Now, I'm pretty terrible formulating my thoughts into something useful, so you won't often see me arguing about too many things. So that being said, your conclusion is potentially fine, but your argument has pretty much just been "because... seriously, c'mon", which isn't a very strong argument.

As am I because I'm not up to date on regulations/numbers etc.
I just looked at the sounds the community was making pitted them against eachother and drew a logical conclusion on that.

That's why I'm commending any addition to the arguments by you the posters.

 

[M-E-D The Poet]

Only problem is handguns are easy to conceal and are designed for shooting people.
Here is how we do it in New Zealand:

Spoiler: From Wikipedia

Categories of firearms
Firearms in New Zealand fall into one of four categories:
Pistols are firearms shorter than 762 mm (30 in).
Restricted Weapons include machine guns, selective-fire assault rifles, grenades and rocket launchers. This category also includes some non-firearm weapons such as pepper spray. Cabinet can declare things to be restricted weapons by regulation.
Military-Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs) include semi-automatic rifles and shotguns that have one or more of the following components:
A folding or telescopic butt
A bayonet lug
A military pattern free-standing pistol grip
A flash suppressor
A magazine that holds (or looks like it could hold) more than 15 rounds of .22 rimfire ammunition or 7 rounds of a centrefire calibre.
A Category firearms are those that do not fall into any other category, and are the vast majority of legally-owned firearms in New Zealand.
Registration is not required under the law but the police carry out a regime similar to registration for all but "A Category" firearms. Firearms in any other category require a "permit to procure" before they are transferred.
Except under supervision of a licence holder, owning or using firearms requires a firearms licence from the police. The licence is normally issued, under the conditions that the applicant has secure storage for firearms, attends a safety lecture and passes a written safety test. The police will also interview the applicant and two referees (one must be a close relative and the other not related) to determine whether the applicant is "fit and proper" to have a firearm. The applicant's residence is also visited to check that they have appropriate storage for firearms and ammunition. Having criminal associations or a history of domestic violence almost always leads to a licence being declined.
A standard firearms licence allows the use of "A Category" firearms. To possess firearms of another category a person is required to get an endorsement to their licence. There are different endorsements for different classes of firearm but they all require a higher level of storage security, stricter vetting requirements and the applicant must have a 'special reason' for wanting the endorsement.
Each endorsement type has additional requirements
B Endorsement - Target (Competition) pistols
Applicant must be a current member of a pistol club, a financial member of Pistol New Zealand (or in some cases membership of an approved club) and have attended at least 12 club shoots in the last 6 months before they can apply
Applicant must be sponsored by their club
The endorsement holder must attend at least 12 club activities (either at their home club or to another recognised club) in a financial year
Normally limited to no more than 12 pistols registered to their licence
Pistols must be of an approved sporting type i.e. barrel length of more than 10 cm (3.9 in)
Pistols can only be carried to and from the range in a locked container with ammunition in a separate container or to a gunsmith
Pistols may only be shot on a Police approved pistol club range.
C Endorsement - Restricted Weapons Pistols can also be held on the C endorsement instead of the B. Common special reasons include:
Collecting (must provide evidence in the form of books, club membership, collection of A type firearms), Museum curator, Family heirlooms and Theatrical.
C category firearms must be stored in an inoperable condition
Can never be used with live ammunition, but blanks are allowed for movie making and re-enacting
Can only be taken to an approved display venue, re-enactment event or to another collector for sale.
D Endorsement - Dealers licence
For those that make an income from firearms. To sell restricted weapons the dealer also needs to have the appropriate endorsements.
Renewed annually
Further security requirements
Must maintain a record (usually a book or register) of firearm purchases and sales.
E Endorsement - Military Style Semi-Automatics (M.S.S.A)
New class of restricted weapon that was created after the Aramoana tragedy. At the time anyone with an M.S.S.A that wanted to keep it in that configuration was given a E endorsement (after going through the vetting and extra security requirements). But presently few are issued. Common reasons for wanting an E endorsement are professional pest destruction, collecting, 3-gun and service rifle shooting. Those people that did not want the extra hassle and expense of the endorsement converted their rifles into 'A' configuration by removing the components that made it an 'E'.
F Endorsement - Dealers Staff Licence
This class allows a person working for a dealer to demonstrate a Pistol, Military Style Semi Automatic or a Collectable weapon without having to have that class of licence. They can demonstrate one but not possess one for personal use. This is not a well known endorsement
[edit]Buying and selling
Anyone buying firearms or ammunition, whether privately or from a dealer, needs to show their firearms licence. In addition, a permit to procure must be obtained prior to the transfer of pistols, military-style semi-automatics and restricted weapons. Sales can be made by mail-order, but a police officer must sign the order form to verify that the purchaser has a firearms licence.

All seems pretty logical. Our gun crime rate is very low.

The point about handguns is that it comes down to the "But I want to be able to protect myself" argument that the gun lovers come to and in my opinion have every right to do so (Under heavy legislation).

As far as I can tell Handguns are indeed easy to conceal, but they're also easy to defend against (Martial arts) and there is a good decent way to keep track of them.
So under heavy legislation a handgun should be fine.

Yes, shots will still be fired but we'll know who's done it and it won't be as casualty heavy as it was before.

I also argue for a limit on clips to that purpose because there's simply no need to be carrying around enough ammo to down the army.