Hail Hydra

[Extra-Ordinary]

"Hail Hydra"

Oh, well, that's a surprise, I see comic fans aren't happy with-

"The White Album is overrated."

Now hold on just a second.

 

[minkus_draconus]

"Widowmaker is balanced."

I've seen nothing overtly "OP" about her, nor have I really heard any whining about her...is there really a sizeable chunk of people that think she needs balancing or are you just getting your ass kicked by Widowmakers a lot, Grey? :3

Personally the sniper I hate the most is Hanzo. Don't know what it is, but any time I get into a game with a Hanzo on the other side, it's like their arrows are magnetically attracted to my face. o.o

OT: this explains the topic I saw in the Off Topic forum about Cap being evil. People really should keep in mind that this isn't going to be permanent, their golden boy isn't going to be evil for very long...that's why it's called "an event."

Hell, remember when DC made the Justice League a bunch of commies workin' for Great Mother Russia? Does Batman still wear red? Not the last time I checked.

I remember an old Daredevil comic where Cap was brainwashed and evil. Not like this have never happened before.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Is it really considered a big deal? I mean it's gonna be revealed he wasn't really evil soon enough he was just doing for *insert dumb reason*.

It's less the plot itself and more the Time article.

http://time.com/4347224/captain-america-hydra-agent-marvel-tom-brevoort/

They are really trying to sell, the "Captain America is and always has been a Nazi" idea, regardless of it making no sense, and being a complete perversion of the character. Not just to the comic sites but to the mainstream to.

They see slanderous character assassination as "marketing". Why?

A. No one believes you.

B. Why would you want them to?

Lets compound this with the lead up to the release of "Steve Rogers:Captain America" was advertised as "in honor of his 75th anniversary."

Yes, it's going to be retconned out of existence. The fact the plot is going to be a total waste of time with no meaningful impact going forward is not a defense, it's an indictment.

The most damning thing about this? People on the fence about picking up the comics after seeing the movies, do you think they went "Wow, I have to go out and buy this!" or "...and this is why I don't waste my time with the comics."?

Marvel is that petulant child who never seems to learn there is such a thing as negative attention.

I am hoping that the "Cap was always HYDRA" bit is a big fat lie, and Marvel's editors are just screwing with us. And the current Cap writer, Nick Spencer, is most likely not that good at his job, which appears to be picking up the pieces the previous writer, Rick Remender, left on the floor. I think they all figured out that NOBODY can write Steve Rogers better than Ed Brubaker, and they're throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Besides, we still remember when Iron Man basically turned into Power-Armor Hitler for the first Civil War event (still can't believe they made another one), and the only reason was because of Executive Meddling.

 

[EternallyBored]

To me, Marvel pulling a 'Captain America was a Hydra agent all along' stunt really got to me, and not in a good way.
I mean ... and I quote from Wiki (yeah not the best reliable source but it's usually accurate).

Simon said Captain America was a consciously political creation; he and Kirby were morally repulsed by the actions of Nazi Germany in the years leading up to the United States' involvement in World War II and felt war was inevitable: "The opponents to the war were all quite well organized. We wanted to have our say too."

So what's the payoff for turning Captain America, a symbol of what America stands for and being a political figurine against what the Nazis did ... into a seclusive Nazi himself? Seems like a huge slap in the face even if it turns out either Captain America is brainwashed or some bullcrap universal powers are at work.

I'm not offended, but it would be like having Courage the Cowardly Dog and suddenly revealing he hated Muriel all along. After everything he's done for her, showing how much he loves his owner, and a long period of their bond being so immensely strong ... a plot twist such as this is beyond stupid. It's so off putting and out of the blue, you feel disgusted instead of shocked which is a failed attempt on the studio's part. Would of been better if they hadn't tried at all then give us this garbage.

Except those same authors have already done the brainwashing plot, even having him giving a Heil to Hitler himself. Later on while Kirby and Simon were working at Marvel they had the arc where Captain America held up a shield with a swastika on it and tried to convince Americans to rise up, it turned out to not be the real Captain, but they still sold it that way as a change to the status quo. Also, before anyone brings up the Times interview, those old comics did the same stuff, just within the comic itself, the golden age was ripe with superdickery covers where everything was declared to be "permanent" and "forever" done in a blatantly obvious way. Even if it's not a blatant falsehood, these types of interviews are always playing tricks on the readers, notably the author mentioned some things it wasn't but left plenty of potential explanations that aren't, "captain America is a Nazi"

Which itself has a whole host of problems, number one being that Hydra didn't have any connection to the Nazis when Captain America was a kid, even during WW2 Hydra wasn't really involved with the Nazis. It's only after WW2 that Von Strucker co-opted the primarily Asian based organization. Outside of the attempts by Red Skull to lead the organization, Hydra is more a rival to SHIELD than they are connected to the actual Nazi movement. Von Strucker never seemed to care about the racial stuff, and was even a target of Hitler for refusing his order to exterminate a French village, he was just a standard totalitarian megalomaniac, Red Skull has never managed to become the undisputed head of Hydra for any length of time, and tends to get the beat down from other Hydra rivals specifically because they don't like his ?bermensch bullshit. Most of Hydra is just basic Supervillain "survival of the fittest" regardless of your race, sex, or religion, and will even off their own agents if they are deemed too weak.

once Von Strucker died, the organization shattered into numerous factions, each one with their own ideas and beliefs, Red Skull only being one faction. So we face a couple primary conundrums here, one being that Hydra didn't have any connection to Germany or the Nazis until WW 2 was almost over and never participated in the war itself, and Hydra's pre-1960's history is largely unclear beyond the little information we have of them being started as an ancient secret society dedicated to some alien presence, so we don't know what their beliefs are or what even being in Hydra was all about before Strucker took over. So how did Steve get involved with an organization that shouldn't have existed? we've either got some kind of manipulation or false memories, or we are dealing with pre ww2 hydra that has no connection to any nazis yet, and no proof that the faction Steve is supposedly a part of is connected to the group the Red Skull currently controls. Given the foreshadowing, I'm going with some kind of memory manipulation.

Not that I'm saying the story will be good, it could end up being total ass, but as someone that likes the SHIELD stuff, it's gets wearying to see people treat Hydra like they're just the Nazi party with the serial numbers filed off, the shit with Red Skull and Hydra from the Captian America movie pretty much only exists in the movies.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

I know heroes turning evil for stupid things is a common thing in comics (hell, I recently watched a video by Linkara on the matter), my issue is the fact that this is Captain America we're talking about! Something about this feels wrong, not to mention it's a despicable attempt to gain readers. Something about this whole thing just rubs me the wrong way...

So what's the payoff for turning Captain America, a symbol of what America stands for and being a political figurine against what the Nazis did ... into a seclusive Nazi himself? Seems like a huge slap in the face even if it turns out either Captain America is brainwashed or some bullcrap universal powers are at work.

I'm not offended, but it would be like having Courage the Cowardly Dog and suddenly revealing he hated Muriel all along. After everything he's done for her, showing how much he loves his owner, and a long period of their bond being so immensely strong ... a plot twist such as this is beyond stupid. It's so off putting and out of the blue, you feel disgusted instead of shocked which is a failed attempt on the studio's part. Would of been better if they hadn't tried at all then give us this garbage.

This is pretty much how I feel. Thanks for summing the problems with this crap better than I ever could!

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Hmmm, yes. Those filthy treasonous colonists are shocked by this? Perhaps now they will see fit to rejoin the empire.

all the european countries should reclaim their colonies. Russia gets alaska, while england, france, the netherlands and Spain can split the rest.

Does the Roman Empire resurrect to reclaim England then (and most everywhere else)?

Careful, that way lies Mongols.

 

[SlumlordThanatos]

"Widowmaker is balanced."

I've seen nothing overtly "OP" about her, nor have I really heard any whining about her...is there really a sizeable chunk of people that think she needs balancing or are you just getting your ass kicked by Widowmakers a lot, Grey? :3

Personally the sniper I hate the most is Hanzo. Don't know what it is, but any time I get into a game with a Hanzo on the other side, it's like their arrows are magnetically attracted to my face. o.o

That's because they actually kinda are. They're like Roadhog hooks: the hitbox for them is much larger than with most other weapons.

I'm actually of the opinion that Widowmaker is trash. She has a specific niche where she is a powerful pick (playing defense), and does very little to contribute to a team of six strangers when picked outside of that niche. She fares far better in a coordinated team than she does when playing solo, but if you're just playing with a bunch of dudes, you're far better off picking Hanzo if you absolutely must play a sniper. At least his ultimate is useful.

Remember, Reinhardt wants YOU to play Mercy! No team needs two Widowmakers or Hanzos, or any combination thereof.

OT: Meh. Haters gonna hate. I don't really read Captain America, but it is fun to watch the reactions when it came out that he was secretly a Nazi.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Well...it's the usual publicity stunt/edge lord attempt at spurring comic sales.

They've, quite literally, been doing this for decades... however, that fact doesn't somehow put this event in particular above criticism or make it immune to flat out derision from the public.

Ya know. Like every other time.

As for the bait in comic form? It's dumb.

Moving on...

 

[RJ 17]

Remember, Reinhardt wants YOU to play Mercy! No team needs two Widowmakers or Hanzos, or any combination thereof.

Then Reinhardt must absolutely love me. My lvl 4 Loot Box contained Mercy's Valkyrie skin so I kinda forced myself to start playing her since that was my first legendary skin. Now she's pretty much my go-to any time we've already got a tank and DPS covered......which is to say almost every game.

Healed 65% of the team's damage and PotG was a 5 man rez to finish the fight for Hanamura's Defense Point B? Done it. :3

 

[infohippie]

Hmmm, yes. Those filthy treasonous colonists are shocked by this? Perhaps now they will see fit to rejoin the empire.

all the european countries should reclaim their colonies. Russia gets alaska, while england, france, the netherlands and Spain can split the rest.

Portugal might be feeling a bit forgotten here. Not to mention Japan and the big chunk of China as well as all the islands they used to own.

 

[Zontar]

Funny thing is, with how Red Skull has been portrayed recently, there is a legitimate argument to be made that Hydra is now the good guys fighting the good fight against a tyrannical government, and that Steve's turn is completely legitimate and in character. Of course Marvel Comics doesn't have the balls to be that subversive in their propaganda stories, so that won't be the case, but it will be in fan fiction with far higher quality writing.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I don't know the whole story here, but if I were to hazard I guess I bet it's going to turn out that it's either mind control, false memories, he's faking it, or any other comic book Hero as Villain cliche.

 

[FalloutJack]

The only problem with this is that, as usual, it's a comic book ass-pull that makes no sense. Such is life in a comic book. Next, he will have either been revealed to havbe been brainwashed, fooling the bad guys on purpose, or an evil twin. Calling it now.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Hmmm, yes. Those filthy treasonous colonists are shocked by this? Perhaps now they will see fit to rejoin the empire.

all the european countries should reclaim their colonies. Russia gets alaska, while england, france, the netherlands and Spain can split the rest.

Portugal might be feeling a bit forgotten here. Not to mention Japan and the big chunk of China as well as all the islands they used to own.

I was talking about the united states. everything else is respected as soverign

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The only problem with this is that, as usual, it's a comic book ass-pull that makes no sense. Such is life in a comic book. Next, he will have either been revealed to havbe been brainwashed, fooling the bad guys on purpose, or an evil twin. Calling it now.

You think proctology is a lucrative career in comic universes since they run on pulling things out of their arse?

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Hmmm, yes. Those filthy treasonous colonists are shocked by this? Perhaps now they will see fit to rejoin the empire.

all the european countries should reclaim their colonies. Russia gets alaska, while england, france, the netherlands and Spain can split the rest.

Does the Roman Empire resurrect to reclaim England then (and most everywhere else)?

fair enough, although it was the fact that the empire eventually stretched to locations like england that lead to the fall of the west

Plagues, civil wars(crisis in the third century comes to mind), invasions and the migration era were all factors in causing it alongside being so overextended that the aforementioned problems caused them to be unable to defend it due to the loss in manpower and resources. Infrastructure being destroyed didn't help either. Its not quite that simple is what I'm trying to say.

I know that but the feudal system began to emerge in provinces that were left undefended during the age of wandering peoples as local citizens swore themselves to local warlords who could protect them when the roman empire began failing to do so

 

[Headsprouter]

"Widowmaker is balanced."

I've seen nothing overtly "OP" about her, nor have I really heard any whining about her...are there really a sizeable chunk of people that think she needs balancing or are you just getting your ass kicked by Widowmakers a lot, Grey? :3

Must be it, I have no clue either why she'd be OP.

Maybe because, using TF2's sniper for an example, despite having a 3.3 second charge time (more than 3 times Widowmaker's), having to pause for a second and scope out in between shots, can still potentially win every fight in the game.

Sniper roles have essentially no skill ceiling, and so must be given as many hindrances as possible to make the point and click adventure on every target's head difficult to pull off even for the most skilled players.

Widow:

Shoots too fast.
Charges too quick.
Has an extremely powerful ult.
Can instantly switch to a more appropriate weapon in close quarters engagements.
Has lots of help with positioning thanks to the grappling hook.

Considering most other characters are restricted to close to mid range without an ult, she's not fun to go up against when the person playing her is especially skilled. I can't play her, mind you, but it's a matter of limiting what a good player is capable of. The limitations simply aren't there.

This idea of Widow being overpowered might have more support [https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4luymk/what_is_your_unpopular_overwatch_opinion/d3qanx1] than you'd at first think.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Also, no one should be surprised that people who are not American are less attached to a character called Captain America.

Actually, Ol' Cap's movie self has quite the fan following in China.

 

[Luminous_Umbra]

To me, Marvel pulling a 'Captain America was a Hydra agent all along' stunt really got to me, and not in a good way.
I mean ... and I quote from Wiki (yeah not the best reliable source but it's usually accurate).

Simon said Captain America was a consciously political creation; he and Kirby were morally repulsed by the actions of Nazi Germany in the years leading up to the United States' involvement in World War II and felt war was inevitable: "The opponents to the war were all quite well organized. We wanted to have our say too."

So what's the payoff for turning Captain America, a symbol of what America stands for and being a political figurine against what the Nazis did ... into a seclusive Nazi himself? Seems like a huge slap in the face even if it turns out either Captain America is brainwashed or some bullcrap universal powers are at work.

Is it really considered a big deal? I mean it's gonna be revealed he wasn't really evil soon enough he was just doing for *insert dumb reason*.

It's less the plot itself and more the Time article.

http://time.com/4347224/captain-america-hydra-agent-marvel-tom-brevoort/

They are really trying to sell, the "Captain America is and always has been a Nazi" idea, regardless of it making no sense, and being a complete perversion of the character. Not just to the comic sites but to the mainstream to.

They see slanderous character assassination as "marketing". Why?

Basically how I feel. Not offended, but disgusted.

Taking a character like Cap and turning him into an utter perversion of what he stood/stands for and having him "always been that way" is just so, so vile. And the fact that you know that it will not stick, that they did this for shock value (Which is some pretty awful storytelling) just makes it worse.

And no, it's not the same as him being brainwashed as has happened previously. There's a big difference between Cap being brainwashed and him always having been a member of Hydra.

Also, congrats on Critical Miss missing (hur hur hur) the point. Again.

 

[CaitSeith]

The only problem with this is that, as usual, it's a comic book ass-pull that makes no sense. Such is life in a comic book. Next, he will have either been revealed to havbe been brainwashed, fooling the bad guys on purpose, or an evil twin. Calling it now.

So true. There has been a lot of heroes and superheroes in comics. But none of them has saved the day as many times as Deux ex machina.