Hardcore gaming is dead forever...

[Smeggs]

For a moment I was actually considering what OP was saying and trying to see where he was coming from. I even said okay to his mention of Vanquish being hardcore. It was an ok game, I guess.

Right up until he complained about "noobtubenolearningcurve."

So I now must rant over a phrase that did not even use proper grammar.

What you said right there is, "Damn those people using a weapon that is superior to mine in firepower, oh if only they would fight fair and use a shittier weapon so I could kill them." Which, in turn, made me laugh at the entire first post. Have you ever actually tried to use a grenade launcher in the CoD games? If so, have you gotten decent kills with them? I'm assuming the answer is, "No," because if you had I guarantee you'd be using it to raise your K/D spread.

It's very easy to tell when someone uses the launcher for suicidal attempts at gaining kills, and when someone is using it out of skill. Apparently you cannot tell the difference, and how could you? You've obviously branded a viable weapon choice as being beneath you simply because you can't use it effectively and are often killed by it.

Just to clarify I don't use the launcher either, as I'm quite shit with it myself, but I've seen enough people using it effectively to know that trying to claim something is "noobish" or "cheap" simply because others are too lazy or not skilled enough to counter it quickly is stupid. It was the same shit with the dual-wielding "noob combo" in Halo 3.

 

[Grand Master Sage]

*shrugs*

Two words: market forces.

As has been mentioned above, there's no reason for the so-called "hardcore" market to have shrunk - if anything it should be bigger than it was 10-20 years ago because there are more people playing games than ever before, and they're not all playing Bejewelled and Wii Sports. Likewise, it's unlikely that much of the existing "hardcore" fanbase has converted to casual gaming... unless they thought there was something wrong with hardcore games in the first place, in which case the market was artificially inflated. Actually, I probably fall into that category because dating all the way back to the Sega Master System I always hated the idea that games needed to be difficult for difficult's sake.

Also, there's also no real reason for "hardcore" developers to jump ship and start making purely casual games because it's overly simplistic to look at the casual market might as a great big attractive money pile - the reality is that it's super-competitive and you need to find a way to cut through the clutter and sell massive volumes of your game at a low price in order to make anything.

So if there's no logical reason that the market has shrunk, and there's no logical reason for developers to be abandoning the market... what gives?

well i guess thats just our differing opinion of what the gaming market is now. It transcends difficulty and mechanics, but also just the overall quality of gaming. Devs can get away with things like releasing "new" DLC a month after a game's release or selling content keys for games because they know that even with the die-hards' support they may or may not lose from those kinds of practices, there are plenty of casual players to fill the gap and continue their profits. Like i said before this isn't the casual user's fault, but the devs knowing they can get away with less quality work than they used to be able to, and still make more money.

and to the other guy that said it, yes i associate a game's "hardcoreness" or whatever, with its difficulty, because more often than not its a good measure of the game's overall depth and play-ability in my opinion. Granted there are some games that are just senselessly hard and aren't fun to play more so than a grind fest to just finish, but you get the idea.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

It's not gone it's just hidden slightly. Many people want to appeal to a large casual audience because it's easy money. It's like saying the artistic film is gone because the cinema is mostly filled with movies containing loud explosions and horny naked chicks.

 

[Scrimshaw13]

this is an inflammatory and ridiculous thread.

 

[Grand Master Sage]

But just because a game IS more accessible doesn't mean it can't still be difficult. My brother beat Mass Effect 1 at age 10 on easy but I couldn't beat it on the hardest setting after over 15 years of gaming. Not saying that ME1 is necessarily 'hardcore', but it does fit your pretty loose definition BUT still is appealing to and completable by a 'casual' gamer.

Besides, the more people play games and grow to like them because they're accessible, then there will be more fans of the medium. This could mean all those 'casuals' become 'hardcores', or that the industry becomes big enough to support niche genres, or that they then go discover classics like Castlevania or Baldur's Gate and decide they want mechanical challenges offered by 'hardcore' games too.

Also, there's a lot of indie developers catering to the 'hardcore' market, just recently I played Zombie Shooter 2, an isometric RPG-shooter that thoroughly whooped my arse on level 2 of Easy Mode. And I Wanna Be The Guy is...well, it's I Wanna Be The Guy.

Consider what Jim Sterling said too, that just because a game doesn't offer traditional difficulty challenges hardcore gamers may crave doesn't mean their isn't challenge there. Like trying to solve every puzzle in a Professor Layton game with no hints, trying a Solo Character Run in a JRPG, trying to get every collectible in a LEGO game, trying to do a No Damage Run on Kingdom Hearts. It's all there, perfectly feasible in the game mechanics.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChallengeGamer

As for more conventional challenges, what about superbosses in RPGs? Expert or equivalent difficulty modes? Trying to get Silent Assassin ranking in a Hitman game? Completing all those increasingly difficult side missions in games like GTA and its ambulance minigames?

To address the point of 'noob tactics' for a moment, developers are including characters and weapons that are easy for beginners, but deliberately balancing them so that once you get a firm grasp of the mechanics, you'll find it's actually inefficient for high level play and discard it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SkillGateCharacters

Also, no 'hardcore' titles? Off the top of my head I'd classify these fairly recent games as mechanically hardcore, and I'm not even a person with an interest in hardcore gaming:
Zombie Shooter 2 (and presumably everything else in the franchise)
Fallout: New Vegas' Hardcore Mode
Hard Reset
High level play on any beat 'em up e.g. Marvel vs Capcom 3
Dark Souls
Any halfway decent RTS/Turn Based Strategy/RPG e.g. Starcraft 2, Empire Total War, Civilizaton V
High level play on any decent multiplayer FPS e.g. Team Fortress 2
Bastion with the optional Shrine challenges

OK, so it's hardly a detailed list. But you may also have noticed I specified that many of these were only 'hardcore' as a deliberate choice to flick a difficulty switch or join a non-newbie server. That's the thing, FarmVille or Wii Sports Resort aren't the threat. They're being made for completely different people. It's the complacent studios and publishers playing everything safe and by the numbers. They're the ones making bland, cookie cutter games.

TL;DR 'Hardcore' gaming is far from dead, in fact between being able to buy/emulate classic games and actively seeking out challenge in newer ones, this is probably the best era of gaming for hardcores. Just because a game isn't made exclusively for your subset doesn't mean your needs aren't being served.

Your points are very well made, and I couldn't agree with you mor...oh hell, a wild TvTropes link! There goes my whole night, you cruel trickster!

you have a solid point there(besides MvC3, that game is hardly a difficult fighter to me at least. They removed a lot of what made MvC a really hard fighting game, but thats just nitpicking)

perhaps you're right, and my views on hardcore gaming are just jaded by a lot of my favorite franchises being ruined as of late for the sake of attracting casuals.

 

[Grand Master Sage]

this is an inflammatory and ridiculous thread.

i don't think so, just opinions and a little rage in here, but that always happens.

 

[Sagacious Zhu]

What do you mean by "hardcore games?"

 

[Ariseishirou]

I know you said "ugh" to FPS games, but I defy you to beat CoD4 or WaW on Veteran and call that a "casual" experience.

Also, Dark Souls is even more popular than Demon Souls - there'll always be a market for those who prefer a challenge.

 

[CrustyOatmeal]

the difference between casual and hardcore gamers is all a matter of time. if a casual player puts enough time into a game they become a hardcore player. everybody was a casual gamer at one time or another. this is just a new horizon for gaming in that there are a surge of new blood attempting to enter the gaming market and as that market matures and starts to desire more complicated games the market will shift to fill those needs

i also think games are actually getting better with their mechanics. im excited about the influence games like arkham city will have on the indusrty. i love games with the "easy to learn, hard to master" mantra. it isnt daunting for newcomers to the series (which adds to sales and insures the studio's continuation) while still rewarding those who stick with the game in order to master the mechanics. while i dont think the system is perfect (i wish it was a bit deeper for those willing to put in the time to master the game), i do believe the game is definitely a step in the right direction

 

[ccggenius12]

I feel like this was covered in a video on this site or something... something about the "hardcore" still being in "casual" games, just not being mandatory. ex, Kirby's epic yarn is easy to beat. Beating it 100% with the high score however...
I agree with the sentiments that the author I can't remember expressed. Removing mandatory difficulty increases the audience that can enjoy it, and that can only be a good thing.

On a note relating to that gears 3 thing, is the sawed off simply the best, or is it merely easy to use? If high skill allows one to use an alternative weapon more efficiently than is possible with the former, then I see no problem with allowing a casual alternative weapon. In fact, if you were really hard core and that was the case, you'd encourage it. Increasing the difficulty of defeating the opposition can only make your experience more hard core right? This of course assumes my premise holds, and I don't have any play experience to gauge it one way or the other.

Alternatively, Minesweeper is pretty hard core. No continues, instant death, and a skilled player will consistently beat a non-skilled one.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I'm more depressed by the death of good grammar, punctuation, and spelling than I am about the so called death of Hardcore gaming. The problem is that you want to be treated as a bigger market than you really are. Let alone the One True Scotsman issue of acting like any game that doesn't beat you with a bamboo reed isn't "good" or "hardcore" enough.

So no, I don't agree with you because game developers will make what they feel like making and a number of them make games that aren't easy. If you truly need Masochism, you need to understand that you're the niche market and thus not every company will cater to you nor should they.

I won't even indulge the "What a hardcore game is" discussion.

 

[Savryc]

What's so Hardcore about gaming? Unless you get a kill streak while surfing on the back of a Great White Shark or catching Mewtwo while going Mach 3 there's nothing worthy of being called Hardcore in this hobby of ours.

 

[Grand Master Sage]

For a moment I was actually considering what OP was saying and trying to see where he was coming from. I even said okay to his mention of Vanquish being hardcore. It was an ok game, I guess.

Right up until he complained about "noobtubenolearningcurve."

So I now must rant over a phrase that did not even use proper grammar.

What you said right there is, "Damn those people using a weapon that is superior to mine in firepower, oh if only they would fight fair and use a shittier weapon so I could kill them." Which, in turn, made me laugh at the entire first post. Have you ever actually tried to use a grenade launcher in the CoD games? If so, have you gotten decent kills with them? I'm assuming the answer is, "No," because if you had I guarantee you'd be using it to raise your K/D spread.

It's very easy to tell when someone uses the launcher for suicidal attempts at gaining kills, and when someone is using it out of skill. Apparently you cannot tell the difference, and how could you? You've obviously branded a viable weapon choice as being beneath you simply because you can't use it effectively and are often killed by it.

Just to clarify I don't use the launcher either, as I'm quite shit with it myself, but I've seen enough people using it effectively to know that trying to claim something is "noobish" or "cheap" simply because others are too lazy or not skilled enough to counter it quickly is stupid. It was the same shit with the dual-wielding "noob combo" in Halo 3.

it was just an expression, i really don't have much of a problem with tubes' in COD, but generally any OP weapon in any game is called a noob tube, well at least they used to be. And i don't me OP as just easy to use or strong, but actually game breaking.




Do you even know what's a hardcore game? Go play ESP Ra.De, DoDonPachi, Mars Matrix, or Radiant Silvergun... and learn.


played them all but ESP, and yes you aren't lying they're really, really hard and i greatly enjoyed them.

 

[Dr.Panties]

Having also beaten godhard mode and all of the challenges, I must say that Vanquish is absolutely a hardcore game. However, it is not the definition of hardcore gaming.

Hardcore gaming can be recognised in a variety of gameplay elements, design philosophies, and/or player attitude:

(1) Difficulty
(2) Obscurity
(3) Purity of mechanics (this can refer to little or no automation)
(4) Self-imposed, or otherwise implied alternate challenges.
(5) Commitment to mastering a game. (attitude)

This is just to name a few. Hardcore gaming isn't going anywhere- it's both a design philosophy (on behalf of certain developers, particularly indie), and a mentality (on behalf of gamers).

 

[NaramSuen]

Long live hardcore gaming!

I have been hearing these exaggerated claims of hardcore gaming's demise since the fifth console generation.

 

[Darkmantle]

I feel like this was covered in a video on this site or something... something about the "hardcore" still being in "casual" games, just not being mandatory. ex, Kirby's epic yarn is easy to beat. Beating it 100% with the high score however...
I agree with the sentiments that the author I can't remember expressed. Removing mandatory difficulty increases the audience that can enjoy it, and that can only be a good thing.

On a note relating to that gears 3 thing, is the sawed off simply the best, or is it merely easy to use? If high skill allows one to use an alternative weapon more efficiently than is possible with the former, then I see no problem with allowing a casual alternative weapon. In fact, if you were really hard core and that was the case, you'd encourage it. Increasing the difficulty of defeating the opposition can only make your experience more hard core right? This of course assumes my premise holds, and I don't have any play experience to gauge it one way or the other.

Alternatively, Minesweeper is pretty hard core. No continues, instant death, and a skilled player will consistently beat a non-skilled one.

that was a jimquisition episode actually

 

[Grabbin Keelz]

Why not just say 'challenging' because I have a feeling that's what your trying to say.
I definitely recommend online multiplayer. You can trial and error your way through a challenging game all you want, but with another human being you have to change up how you play every game.

 

[Zen Toombs]

for a simple reason really, now that video games have become a profitable market, there really is no incentive to make a good hardcore game anymore that really pleases an increasingly niche section of gamers. Every year i see less and less hardcore games coming out( i think the last one i played was Vanquish, and that game wasn't very successful. I don't even want to think about FPS). The fact of the matter is, the people who truly care about video games are greatly outnumbered by casuals, and the gap will only increase. Its even making its way into PC, which for a long time was protected from too much casual entry due to it being somewhat expensive, and not completely easy to pick up, but now even it is becoming more accessible and watered down. This is a serious problem guys we need to consider, but there's not much we can do about it. one day everything's going to be a wagglenoobtubenolearningcurve casual fest, and devs are still going to make millions.


Just my opinion though. what do you guys think?

Interesting analysis, although I would argue that making some games more accessible is better on the whole. Also, this doesn't kill off "hardcore games" so much as make them less common. (Significantly less common, but my point remains.) If there is a market for it, someone will make the product.

 

[the spud]

*sigh* I thought we were done with this argument...

It doesn't matter how many casual gamers there are. There share in the market will never be endless. We will always be here, and as long as we are, and people can make a profit from selling us hardcore titles, then hardcore games aren't going anywhere. Just because one section of a market suddenly becomes larger, that doesn't mean that the other sections immediately become worthless to developers.