Hardware is Gimmicks

[Thanatos2k]

NES to SNES added four buttons. "Deeper complex games" is just a function of what developers can do with the hardware. There is nothing inherent about the SNES that produces "deeper complex games."

Exactly true, but you're missing the point. This is precisely why this new line of consoles is a marginal improvement on the last generation. At best.

And it had no backwards compatibility, which is now the most important thing ever!

Again, you're missing something in this assertion. Or rather, ignoring something.

Namely, context.

Back in the NES and SNES days, consoles were still new. The very concept of gaming consoles, and even video games in general, were viewed simply as fads, kids toys, gimmicky play things that no one would care about in ten years. As a result almost no one was thinking about the "future" of gaming nor the methods of playing them. Certainly not at a consumer level.

However, over the years, the number of games we've all accumulated have built up. At the same time, and more crucially, the number of devices we need to use to play these games and the variety of devices we need to use to interact with them have also increased. There comes a point where this sort of limited, locked-in system of hardware iteration becomes both stifling and tedious.

This is one of the primary reasons people are demanding backwards compatibility with newer consoles. The notion of effectively having to "abandon" virtually their entire back-catalog of games, especially in the realm of todays more social gaming environments, is unacceptable to many gamers; as well as being both antiquated and ridiculous.

So sure, complaints about backwards compatibility would sound ludicrous and petty "back in the day". However, today they are very much legitimate.

I don't think the context is very different at all. When I bought a SNES I had to keep my NES around to play NES games when I wanted to. I don't remember any of my friends crying about how they had to "abandon" their catalog of wonderful NES games. But now apparently that is too much to ask people for some reason. Or maybe it's just that the internet is now around giving people a new vector to complain about unimportant things. As a kid I'd move the SNES all over the house constantly from TV to TV as necessary so I wouldn't get in the way of my parents watching TV. Now people are too half-assed to unplug something at all.

Meanwhile, PC games even back then were backwards compatible. Would the Yahtzee of 1992 have said that everyone should only get PCs because that new console just wasn't worth it?

 

[Thanatos2k]

Every week he's harping on the next gen consoles. I really wonder if Yahtzee was around 20 years ago would he be using these same arguments about why no one should buy a Super Nintendo?

"Just better hardware and no backwards compatibility??? No thanks, I'll keep playing my NES!"

Every previous generation has added something new. Most noticeably graphics, but also the ability for deeper, more complex games.

This generation is the first generation that doesn't appear to add anything new. Graphics are getting better, but nowhere near the jump they've had every other generation. The only "new" features to those that don't indulge heavily on sites like this are the trackpad on the PS4, and the better version of Kinect. Neither are that interesting.

NES to SNES added four buttons. "Deeper complex games" is just a function of what developers can do with the hardware. There is nothing inherent about the SNES that produces "deeper complex games."

And it had no backwards compatibility, which is now the most important thing ever!

No, there is nothing about the SNES that means the games are inherently better than games on the NES.

However, if you were to run Super Mario Bros o n the NES next to Super Mario (Land?) on the SNES, it is very, very obvious which one has better graphics. And the games industry has spent the last 30+ years drumming in to us that better graphics == better game...

I don't know about that. Pit a launch title of the PS3 against one on the PS4 and there is indeed a significant noticeable difference in the graphics. Just like late NES vs early SNES games didn't look that much better. (Compare Kirby's Adventure, one of the late NES games vs Super Mario World for example. The difference is MUCH smaller)

 

[Vigormortis]

I don't think the context is very different at all. When I bought a SNES I had to keep my NES around to play NES games when I wanted to. I don't remember any of my friends crying about how they had to "abandon" their catalog of wonderful NES games. But now apparently that is too much to ask people for some reason. Or maybe it's just that the internet is now around giving people a new vector to complain about unimportant things. As a kid I'd move the SNES all over the house constantly from TV to TV as necessary so I wouldn't get in the way of my parents watching TV. Now people are too half-assed to unplug something at all.

You're missing my point.

Back then, as I said before, gaming was a fad. A series of kids toys. Nothing more. And, home gaming was still really new to the mass market. Not to mention many gamers collection of games were relatively small, especially compared to todays average collection.

Today, however, video gaming is one of, if not the, biggest entertainment genres. More people are playing video games, on a wider range of platforms and devices, than ever before. Likewise, player have access to games at almost any time in any location and most players have online presences that are tied to a specific platform or service.

As a result, player collections are becoming increasingly larger. More people are playing, and keeping, more games than ever before.

In light of this, is it any wonder backwards compatibility is an issue? As I said prior, the notion of a new platform effectively requiring one to abandon his or her older collection, especially when that same person must also shift their online presence to another service[footnote]For example, one must inevitably abandon their old Xbox360 catalogs when Live becomes more prevalent on XboxOne.[/footnote] is antiquated and ridiculous. When platforms like PC allow users to play games from as far back as the 80's, it's no wonder people are complaining about the complete lack of backwards compatibility on the new consoles.

Meanwhile, PC games even back then were backwards compatible. Would the Yahtzee of 1992 have said that everyone should only get PCs because that new console just wasn't worth it?

Backwards compatible with what? Even PC gaming was barely a niche back then. And even then, in many cases, PC gaming was extremely hit-and-miss. Compatibility was a major issue.

Look, I get that backwards compatibility doesn't matter to you. You don't care that you need half a dozen different machines to play your collection of games. And that's fine.

However, that doesn't mean everyone else's genuine complaints about it aren't valid. Nor does it mean that convenience is a dirty word.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Yes and no, its all gimmicks until you set a standard by which game companies make games on. This is why the WII/WII U is getting the short end of the stick. Also BWC or no buy.

 

[That Eeyore]

NES to SNES added four buttons. "Deeper complex games" is just a function of what developers can do with the hardware. There is nothing inherent about the SNES that produces "deeper complex games."

Exactly true, but you're missing the point. This is precisely why this new line of consoles is a marginal improvement on the last generation. At best.

And it had no backwards compatibility, which is now the most important thing ever!

Again, you're missing something in this assertion. Or rather, ignoring something.

Namely, context.

Back in the NES and SNES days, consoles were still new. The very concept of gaming consoles, and even video games in general, were viewed simply as fads, kids toys, gimmicky play things that no one would care about in ten years. As a result almost no one was thinking about the "future" of gaming nor the methods of playing them. Certainly not at a consumer level.

However, over the years, the number of games we've all accumulated have built up. At the same time, and more crucially, the number of devices we need to use to play these games and the variety of devices we need to use to interact with them have also increased. There comes a point where this sort of limited, locked-in system of hardware iteration becomes both stifling and tedious.

This is one of the primary reasons people are demanding backwards compatibility with newer consoles. The notion of effectively having to "abandon" virtually their entire back-catalog of games, especially in the realm of todays more social gaming environments, is unacceptable to many gamers; as well as being both antiquated and ridiculous.

So sure, complaints about backwards compatibility would sound ludicrous and petty "back in the day". However, today they are very much legitimate.

I don't think the context is very different at all. When I bought a SNES I had to keep my NES around to play NES games when I wanted to. I don't remember any of my friends crying about how they had to "abandon" their catalog of wonderful NES games. But now apparently that is too much to ask people for some reason. Or maybe it's just that the internet is now around giving people a new vector to complain about unimportant things. As a kid I'd move the SNES all over the house constantly from TV to TV as necessary so I wouldn't get in the way of my parents watching TV. Now people are too half-assed to unplug something at all.

Meanwhile, PC games even back then were backwards compatible. Would the Yahtzee of 1992 have said that everyone should only get PCs because that new console just wasn't worth it?

Difference is that back then there wasn't a standardized format like there is today. All physical games come as discs, CD's, DVD's, and now Blu Ray, which both new consoles can play.

Plus, we just had a generation of consoles that all had back compatibility (though the 360's wasn't always great in its emulation and Sony's only allowed for PS1 games unless you bought the right model). It feels kind of like a let down to have something that felt like a given a generation ago mostly abandoned.

 

[Thanatos2k]

He said the gaming controller. You're not going to play an RTS game - any RTS game - with a controller. Controllers are good for one thing, keyboard/mouse another, and joysticks/fightpads/whateverelse another.

But of things best controlled with a controller, the Dualshock is indeed perfection. Valve hasn't showed us anything, because they keep changing the design of their prototypes BECAUSE that innovation wasn't doing anything useful. Plus, I find Valve's vision of a symmetrical controller troubling to begin with.....

Well I think he's just not stuck in his mindset like you are.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of playing RTS' with controllers. The problem is playing RTS' with the current form of controllers. It's not set in stone that it will be like this forever.
Then again; I think that Sonys PS4 trackpad won't help that much considering its placement. Valves Steam controller on the other hand...this COULD be the first controller to comfortably play RTS' with.
The main difference between those is that Sony wanted "something new" on their already decent controller, whereas Valve designed theirs from scratch to solve exactly this problem: controlling mouse-driven games.

It's the FPS argument again. Controllers will NEVER be as good as a mouse at quickly and precisely pointing at and clicking things. And RTS games are about a whole lot of pointing at very small things and clicking on them, dragging boxes, and targeting enemy things. The only way to "improve" a controller is to change the game itself such that you don't need to do those things that a mouse does best.

Also:
Saying that Valves "innovation wasn't doing anything useful" is just utter nonsense. Pretty much anyone agrees that their main innovation (touchpads instead of analog sticks) is a plain upgrade. What they're doing is listening to the feedback and change the stuff that could have been better (touchscreen gone, more buttons). The really innovating part is there to stay because, apparently, it does work.
I want to test it myself though...

We'll see what their final product ends up as. Until then it's all speculation.

 

[SKBPinkie]

So, umm....serious question - does Yahtzee even like video games?

Not joking here, but every article of his that I've read is a complaint. I've pretty much never seen him praise something. Is it just his job to not like stuff and provide us with "insightful commentary"?

Cause I'm not sure if I have the tolerance for so much negativity.

 

[ExileNZ]

Hardware is Gimmicks

The PS4 has a big thing in the middle of the controller that has the function of a track pad but which you can press in like a button. The Xbox One has a packed-in Kinect. It's the specter of hardware gimmicks in new consoles again.

Read Full Article

Here's a use: tricking players into thinking they're actually using finger-print scanners for opening doors and elaborate storage boxes.

Annnnd that's it. I'm spent. No more ideas here.

 

[gorfias]

Considering that you aren't expected to own multiple tablet controllers for the wii-u, multiplayer is done with wii style or pro style controllers, that particular gimmick is never going to happen I think.

For my own purpose, being able to continue a game on the tablet while the wife/kids do something else is pretty cool. Also, I got Dance 2014. My daughter danced while I did karaoke on the tablet mike.

Will the day come where I, say, play football on the tablet, doing plays that will be unseen by my son using the pro controller? Possibly. If Gen 8 last 10 years, I have time.

Anyway, I definitely don't agree that the dual shock is perfect as it is.

Are the shoulder buttons still digital rather than analogue? If so, that stinks. I like the idea of using the analogue trigger for things like automobile speeds (slow or fast). Maybe some day, they'll even have Batman run without holding down A.

 

[EvilRoy]

So, umm....serious question - does Yahtzee even like video games?

Not joking here, but every article of his that I've read is a complaint. I've pretty much never seen him praise something. Is it just his job to not like stuff and provide us with "insightful commentary"?

Cause I'm not sure if I have the tolerance for so much negativity.

Well excessive negativity can be a drag at times, but I find it rather refreshing in general. Most other websites I visit, or even most of the other stuff on this site is pretty ungodly positive about how awesome and fresh the new consoles are, or how every game is 9/10 excellent.

Aside from the occasional fan-outrage I can find positive reviews of stuff just about anywhere, at times they're unavoidable. This is one of the few places I can hear about how a game sucks before I buy it.

 

[MrBaskerville]

He said the gaming controller. You're not going to play an RTS game - any RTS game - with a controller. Controllers are good for one thing, keyboard/mouse another, and joysticks/fightpads/whateverelse another.

But of things best controlled with a controller, the Dualshock is indeed perfection. Valve hasn't showed us anything, because they keep changing the design of their prototypes BECAUSE that innovation wasn't doing anything useful. Plus, I find Valve's vision of a symmetrical controller troubling to begin with.....

Well I think he's just not stuck in his mindset like you are.
There's nothing wrong with the idea of playing RTS' with controllers. The problem is playing RTS' with the current form of controllers. It's not set in stone that it will be like this forever.
Then again; I think that Sonys PS4 trackpad won't help that much considering its placement. Valves Steam controller on the other hand...this COULD be the first controller to comfortably play RTS' with.
The main difference between those is that Sony wanted "something new" on their already decent controller, whereas Valve designed theirs from scratch to solve exactly this problem: controlling mouse-driven games.

As for the trackpad on the PS4 controller:
I think it could be used to emulate simple mouse controls (scrolling maps and such stuff). Yahztee's points still stands: Couldn't it have been realized with the old controller design already?

Also:
Saying that Valves "innovation wasn't doing anything useful" is just utter nonsense. Pretty much anyone agrees that their main innovation (touchpads instead of analog sticks) is a plain upgrade. What they're doing is listening to the feedback and change the stuff that could have been better (touchscreen gone, more buttons). The really innovating part is there to stay because, apparently, it does work.
I want to test it myself though...

But the problem is that they might be good at rts and fps, but what about games like Ninja Gaiden or Street Fighter? Games that works perfectly with controllers but kinda crap with keyboard and mouse. I wouldn't want to play a fighting game with a touch pad, it would be a nightmare, analouge sticks are bad enough for this purpose as it is (hence why all controllers have a D-pad).

I think this article got me one step closer to understanding why i'm completely indefferent (and slighty annoyed) with the new consoles. I just struggle to see how they are worth the money and i'd really rather just have more cool games for my ps3 than be forced to pay a fortune for some crap that i don't even want.

 

[Sotanaht]

Considering that you aren't expected to own multiple tablet controllers for the wii-u, multiplayer is done with wii style or pro style controllers, that particular gimmick is never going to happen I think.

For my own purpose, being able to continue a game on the tablet while the wife/kids do something else is pretty cool. Also, I got Dance 2014. My daughter danced while I did karaoke on the tablet mike.

Will the day come where I, say, play football on the tablet, doing plays that will be unseen by my son using the pro controller? Possibly. If Gen 8 last 10 years, I have time.

Anyway, I definitely don't agree that the dual shock is perfect as it is.

Are the shoulder buttons still digital rather than analogue? If so, that stinks. I like the idea of using the analogue trigger for things like automobile speeds (slow or fast). Maybe some day, they'll even have Batman run without holding down A.

I'm pretty sure I remember the PS2 shoulder buttons being analog, used in MGS2 or 3. The triggers definitely are on PS3, driving games are pretty much the entire reason they have their current shape.

 

[gorfias]

I'm pretty sure I remember the PS2 shoulder buttons being analog, used in MGS2 or 3. The triggers definitely are on PS3, driving games are pretty much the entire reason they have their current shape.

Yep. Dualshock 3s L2 and R2 are analogue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DualShock

I think the new pro-controllers' shoulder buttons are digital.

 

[rasputin0009]

Can they split up the trackpad into 4 imaginary quadrants like having 4 tap-able "Start/Select" buttons? They could've just put 4 more buttons, but whatevs. Maybe it's good for drawing? I dunno. I'm trying to see how it's any better than an analog stick. Anybody with a PS4 notice anything specific that the trackpad is better for than an analog stick?

 

[rasputin0009]

There's nothing wrong with the idea of playing RTS' with controllers. The problem is playing RTS' with the current form of controllers. It's not set in stone that it will be like this forever.
Then again; I think that Sonys PS4 trackpad won't help that much considering its placement. Valves Steam controller on the other hand...this COULD be the first controller to comfortably play RTS' with.

Ya, the Steam controller might be good for RTS, but the one thing I'm wary about is the lack of hotkeys. Even playing something basic like Age of Empires II, the keyboard is great because it has 50 different hotkeys that I can press and quick select-different units/buildings. It might be possible with a controller, but it'd be like having multiple "shift" keys adjusting the function of all the other buttons. Mind you, "simpler"(couldn't think of a better word) RTS games could be made with the Steam controller in mind.

 

[Second World]

I want one of those controllers that was in the show The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
It had a turn wheel (something you can emulate with analog sticks), buttons on the back of the controller (something only nintendo seems to do), and buttons on the sides of the controller.

Can't go wrong with more buttons if you can feasibly touch all of them at the same time (which is why I personally don't like using the Dual Shock's Triangle & X buttons together, and why triangle is usually used as a "menu" or "swap" button.) This is why the track pad on the BACK of the Vita is rather nice. It doesn't interfere with your default buttons, and you can reasonably use it in conjunction with the others.

PS4's controller has things backwards by offering a trackpad button in the front and center of the controller. Without shifting one of your hands away from the other buttons or stretching a finger in an uncomfortable way that prevents you from simultaneously using a button or analog, you can't reasonably use the control at all.

I heard that Sucker Punch, in one example, is using the trackpad for interaction purposes, such as putting your thumb to it so the in-game character would do so on an interact-able object that he's supposed to use his hands on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuDVNoKxH54 This is the only instance I've heard of that makes sense for the button. But, this demonstrates that the button its-self can't be used during any action sequence without being a hindrance, and that the other buttons that already exist could simply adopt its functions in such situations..

But who knows, maybe it'll prove to be useful in some way, as I've yet to see what was in-mind when they decided to employ such a button in the first place. Who knows, it could be a great solution to some sort of interact-able dilemma that I (and most of Sony's studios) haven't thought of yet. At least in the case of Nintendo, we were immediately seeing the multiplayer aspect of the touch screen (which reminded me a lot of Dreamcast's VMU qualities.)

One type of game that I feel still can't reasonably be played on a console without alteration is a PC RTS game such as Command & Conquer or Age of Empires. The employment of a mouse with a large array of motion sensitivity and a large number of hotkeys is rather important (since the games are played in real time with a large amount of off-screen environment to keep track of) and the console ports seem debilitatingly restrictive by comparison. I can see how Nintendo's touch screen would aid such a game by adding a number of buttons and screens you can employ in your lap (since pressing anywhere on a screen suddenly or remaining on one screen while interacting with an instance on another is only possible with a separate touch screen..)

So I suppose the keyboard, the Dual Shock, and the DS are our pinnacle of peripheral.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

It's the FPS argument again. Controllers will NEVER be as good as a mouse at quickly and precisely pointing at and clicking things.

That's a rather extraordinary claim.

So, the mouse is the perfect method of input, and can never be improved on? What if somebody develops a controller based on a neural interface, where you don't even have to move a physical object like a mouse? Surely, one's brain activity directly connected to the computing device will be a lot faster (if properly implemented) than something as crude as a mouse?

I don't think it's a matter of if this is going to happen, but more a question of whether it will happen in 5 years or 10 years.

 

[The Hungry Samurai]

Hardware is Gimmicks

The PS4 has a big thing in the middle of the controller that has the function of a track pad but which you can press in like a button. The Xbox One has a packed-in Kinect. It's the specter of hardware gimmicks in new consoles again.

Read Full Article

I agree that the uses of the touchpad will require some creative thinking, but there are some advantages of a touchpad. Multi-finger gestures. Pinching, twisting, and whatever the opposite of pinching is called. I can easily see a game using it, for example to have a player crack a combination safe, or rotate items in the inventory.

Can it be done with clockwork turns of the sticks, or at the ready presses of the shoulder buttons? Yes, but now there are more options.

 

[Vegosiux]

I agree, also im mad because they didnt added more shoulder buttons, or backside buttons. Why buy a next-gen controller if my Razer Sabertooth is much more useful and Valve is already doing something better?

I've got a humble Deathadder and it takes care of all my gaming needs. It's all a matter of approach...

 

[immortalfrieza]

He said the gaming controller. You're not going to play an RTS game - any RTS game - with a controller. Controllers are good for one thing, keyboard/mouse another, and joysticks/fightpads/whateverelse another.

I don't know about everybody else, but I've never had a problem controlling an RTS game with a controller. I use Xpadder with an Xbox360 controller on everything that's possible, including several RTSes like Warcraft, Starcraft, Black and White, (whole series I'm talking about) and few others I can't really think of right now and never had any real issues.

It's the FPS argument again. Controllers will NEVER be as good as a mouse at quickly and precisely pointing at and clicking things. And RTS games are about a whole lot of pointing at very small things and clicking on them, dragging boxes, and targeting enemy things. The only way to "improve" a controller is to change the game itself such that you don't need to do those things that a mouse does best.

I would argue against that. I don't see what the problem is with using controllers in FPS either even as they are. In fact, I find controllers to work better most of the time because mice tend to be too sensitive to aim effectively even with the mouse sensitivity turned way down. All it takes is a slight twitch to throw off one's aim when using a mouse while a control stick won't. It's also simply more comfortable overall to use a controller over a keyboard and mouse anyway.