Hearthstone Reveals Single-Player Adventure Mode

[Vrach]

As for Play mode, yes, I've beaten a lot of guys throwing legendaries at me, despite only recently have gotten my first useful epic card (which I did by disenchanting almost all other epics I had). Hell, when I was doing my Hunter quest once (hunter not being my 'main' class), I damn near beat a Druid throwing some 4-5 legendaries at me. Yes, you have a chance and can outplay that kind of stuff, but the legendary cards still give you an awful lot of advantage. If you have a good player and one who's happy to buy a ton of packs, get a bunch of awesome cards and make a murder deck out of them, then good luck going against that.

Usually the cards that are required is dependent on what class you play. Warlocks and Hunters for example are really cheap to build decks for, because their class epics and legendaries are so-so. You can get away with just using common and rare cards in Hunter decks, and just murlocs and/or 1-2 cost minions with a few spells in a Warlock deck.

However, Warriors and Paladins are extremely expensive to build, because their class epics and legendaries are pivotal in their decks. Warriors require Brawl, Gorehowl and Shield Slam for decent removal, whereas Paladins require Sword of Justice for their minions and maybe one lay on hands for healing.

Did you just say Jaraxxus is a so-so card?

And yeah, rush decks usually work just fine with basic cards, but anything other than that usually requires a number of rares and a few epics. The legendaries are mostly there for backup... unless you have several of them, in which case it's only a matter of surviving long enough to throw them out and fubar your opponent.

My rating seems to have risen somewhat and lately I've been running into more and more people who throw out several legendaries at me during the game. Ragnaros himself is at worst an 8 damage spell, Ysera gives you at least one ridiculously powerful card (seriously, those green dragons in late game when you're topdecking? don't tell me that's not an advantage), I've seen Alexstrasza bring a guy back from the dead and Deathwing literally turned the game from "he's dead next turn" to "I'm dead this turn".

I agree some classes are more reliant on rarer cards, but a legendary card is almost always an upper hand, assuming a choice of a legendary card, which you can easily have if you're buying cards.

 

[Vrach]

In terms of fun and spamming emotes, Jaraxxus is amazing. But in terms of usefulness and competitive value, Jaraxxus is complete shit. He'll only win you games that you could have won without using him.

Jaraxxus takes your health to 15, and if your health is in trouble, the heal probably isn't going to save you. He has a 3/8 weapon, which while it seems amazing, Jaraxxus' health is too low too late in the game to use it much. Jaraxxus also costs 9 mana, and the infernals he summons don't have charge, so it takes him a full 2 turns to actually be worthwhile, which is a long time so late in the game.

The problems are as follows:
1) He allows you to damage yourself all you want - Life Tap each turn, throw your Flame Imps, clear the board with Hellfire - it doesn't matter, you have a "set health to 15" from him and he negates all that stuff.
2) You can't counter it in any shape or form. No removals, no nothing. Best you can do is throw an ooze to destroy his weapon, but do you really save an ooze for that against a Warlock (it's not like you know he has him)? Even if you do, you've got a useless card in your hand for a portion of the game. That late in the game, few people are going to have strong taunts going on (unless you're playing a Druid with huge taunts, but that's one class)
3) His Hero power is absolutely insane, 6/6 minion for the price of two mana. Yes, it takes two turns for him to use the infernal, but that's not necessarily the only card in his hand. In fact, it's highly unlikely it is, seeing as he life tapped like mad.

Yes, you can finish him off in those two turns sometimes. Sometimes you can't - for me, today was one of those times, I'd had gotten the Warlock to 3 health with a Pyroblast in my hand and some small minions on the table. But he had a Taunt to block the minions and I didn't have Malygos to do 15 damage with the Pyro

Class legendaries are powerful, sure, but if anything, that's the only card you should actually strive for. Even then, cards like Al'Akir, Edwin Vancleef and King Krush can all be lived without. The only class legendary I actually use is Al'Akir, even then I rarely end up playing him.

Krush's screwed me over far too many times, the fact he has charge makes him an 8 damage spell at worst for the cost of 9 mana - and your opponent needs to waste his own mana and a removal card next turn. Velen is awful if you don't have a removal instantly, he could potentially be the death of you in the next turn. Antonidas can be insane when coupled with some cheap spells at 10 mana (God forbid you have The Coin). So yeah, we agree, most of the class legendaries are pretty awesome.

Large finisher legendaries are the cards that you save your hex/polymorph/executes for (every class has a similar removal card), so they're really not that influencial in game outcomes. But really, every class will have small, medium and large removal spells.

Except when it's mostly based on doing something instantly. Deathwing clears the table, Ysera gives you at least one good card (those fucking green drakes...), Ragnaros smacks you for 8 health (unless you have minions on board) and so on. And once again, you're not limited to one legendary per deck. Good luck having enough removals for some 4 legendaries.

Small legendaries either come with risk, or they're slightly better than rare or common cards. Bloodmage Thalnos is a Kobold Geomancer with a single card draw. Leeroy is an Arcane Golem with +2 damage. Gelbin Mekkatorque's inventions generally always help your opponent too.

See where I'm going with this? Legendaries are better than common cards, yes, but they're not that pivotal. You can easily get by without legendaries. If anything, I'd say the only time a legendary will influence your deck in a big way is if you invest in one big class legendary to use as a finisher. Archmage Antonidas or Tyrion Fordring will generally boost your deck quite a lot, but something like Nat Pagle really won't make a difference.

Yeah, I know where you're going with it and I agree for the most part. Still, it feels an uphill battle when you have no legendaries and your opponent's chucking several at you. Most finishers finish you because by that time, you don't have much to deal with them (because you know, there are other cards that need removing too). Some small legendaries can give you a large boost early on if played right (or if your opponent simply didn't get the cards at start to deal with them, hi Pagle) and class legendaries are mostly murder. To not have any of that advantage and be fighting against someone who does... it doesn't make for a balanced scenario most of the time :\

 

[Vrach]

1. Not true. If you're damaging yourself so much using Life Tap and Flame Imps, the game will end before turn 9. Even if you get to turn 9, that's when it's most likely that your opponent will play a large minion, meaning that if you play Jaraxxus, you're risking them killing you in one turn. They certainly won't give you enough time to setup your infernals. The only time it's safe to play Jaraxxus is if your opponent has a dead hand and is just top decking, or if you have board control, in which case, you'd win even without playing Jaraxxus.

My point is, he's not sitting there twiddling his thumbs before he gets Jaraxxus. He can keep the board clean, force your removals and damage you. If you play him right, by the time you use him, you at least have board control or have forced your opponent into topdecking. I don't mean that he's an instant, non-situational "I win" card, but if he's played right (like most other cards), he can make a huge difference.

2. You can counter it. Every good deck should have some form of finisher. Personally, in my Shaman deck, I use Al'Akir and Rockbiter Weapon as a finisher. As a backup, I also have Azure Drakes and Flamebursts so if need be, I can do a large amount of damage in a single turn. I also have quite a few taunts, so even if a Jaraxxus did play Infernals, he wouldn't be able to hit me with them for at least 3 turns. More than enough time to deal 15 damage to a hero.

It takes a lot to finish off 15 health in one turn and next turn, he has options. How about a strong minion and a taunt-giving card? Now he has 6/6, another minion and two taunts. Don't get me wrong, my spell damage build would annihilate him every time, it's not even funny. I have a mage deck that's based on "I don't give a shit about you or your minions, I can literally nuke you down from full health in 1-2 turns". However, he was a problem on my control mage (that I tend to play now as I'm running into more and more legendaries and the spell damage build can't usually ignore that)

3. His hero power replaces life tap, he won't be able to draw anymore cards after playing Jaraxxus. I also need to put emphasis on the fact that he literally cannot play ANYTHING on the turn that he plays Jaraxxus. If Jaraxxus is played, he can't remove any of your minions, he can't place any minions and he can't buff any minions already in play.

You don't life tap at 15 health most of the time. At that point, he loses a useless hero power and gains an overpowered one. And while he may not have anything to play that turn (although he might, soulfire could remove one threat to slow you down enough), next turn it's highly unlikely he doesn't.

Yeah, TODAY it was one of those times. Everyone loses games, it's a card game, there is an aspect of luck. Also, in my opinion, Malygos and Pyroblast are bad cards. 10 mana for 10 damage isn't really worth it, and Malygos is too risky and has no immediate effect on the game. You can get a lot more out of Archmage Antonidas and Fireballs.

I know, just saying, I've seen him work and thinking back on it, there was little I could've done to turn the game around and it was late in the game, so it's not like I can say "well, if better cards arrived...". Malygos and Pyro were a joke (as in, I couldn't have just finished him with the Pyro when he threw Jaraxxus down), though I'd disagree that Pyroblast is a bad card, it ends a lot of games for me, particularly in a mage control deck where I typically have board control by the end enough to finish people off (and it's not a "if you have board control you win anyway", trust me, it's made a difference plenty of times). And I agree, I'd take Antonidas in a heartbeat and go back to my spell power deck (I reckon it'd just annihilate people), but... I don't

Krush is a finisher, but frankly, I think I'd rather have Leeroy Jenkins. I mean he's a good card, but Leeroy's better and much cheaper. If I were to list class legendaries by rank, I'd probably put Krush down near the bottom with Jaraxxus and Cenarion. I'd have Tyrion Fordring and Antonidas at the top.

It's not just a finisher, as I said, he can throw it on turn 8, deal 8 damage (not something to scoff at), possibly even benefit from him being a beast and I need to waste mana and a removal to get rid of him next turn while the rest of the minions wait. And that's assuming I have a removal and I'm not already fucked

Deathwing is an ultimatum card. If you play Deathwing, he doesn't guarantee a win, but he's going to make you either win or lose. If your opponent has any instant removal, then you just discarded your entire hand for nothing. Even worse, he can get Faceless Manipulated or Mind Controlled. I own Deathwing, but I never put him in my decks, he's just simply never worth it.

True. However, Faceless still lets you either trade him or deal 12 damage, possibly finishing the opponent off. As for Mind Control... yeah, you're fucked if you play him against a Priest, I agree I wouldn't unless it was a last, desperate move.

Ysera is also a strong legendary, but a bit overrated. She has a 20% chance to give either Nightmare, Laughing Sister, Emerald Drake, Ysera Awakens or Dream, and frankly, if you remove Ysera quickly enough, none of those cards are particular overwhelmingly powerful by themselves. They might push the game in your favor, but I've won plenty of games against Ysera players.

Same. I've lost a good deal of them too though. My overall point is that no legendary card is a "I win" card by itself. But it's only a single card and the rest of your deck can easily be made to put your opponent in a position where it is. If your opponent is a Druid and he throws out Ironbarks at you, you're not going to be saving your removals in case he has a legendary coming out next turn, you need to deal with that stuff right away.

I'm not going to lie, at the end of the day, Hearthstone is pay to win, but it's a card game. All card games are pay to win. But legendaries in this game don't have as much of an impact as you might think. You just need to know which removal card to play and what cards are worth removing. After practice, your win rate goes up even against legendary decks.

That was my whole point really. Don't get me wrong, those pay to win types are usually easily outplayed (though good+pay to win is an awful combination). I damn near beat a guy throwing several legendaries at me with my Hunter deck that I both don't play and isn't very good (I was doing the daily quest with him, 's all ^^), I annihilated all his legendaries with control cards perfectly and got him to two health and an explosive trap, but you know... druid, a single armor saves him there. But legendaries were literally all that won him that game, there was zero skill involved on his part.

Almost all small legendaries are matched or close to matched by non legendary cards.
-Nat Pagle is trumped by Mana Tide Totem (especially after Pagle's huge nerf)
-Tinkmaster Overspark's effect can be mimicked by having Ancient Watcher and Ironbeak Owl (turn 3 4/5 + 2/1 which can both attack).
-Come the next patch, Mukla and Milhouse will be matched by the non legendary dancing Swords.
-Sylvanas shares a similar effect to Faceless Manipulator
-Cairne Bloodhoof can be matched by Sunwalker
-The Beast is a slightly stronger Corehound
-Harrison Jones is replaceable with Acidic Swamp Ooze
-Leeroy can be replaced by Arcane Golem or Argent Commander
-Bloodmage Thalnos can be replaced by Loot Hoarder or Kobold Geomancer depending on whether you want the card draw or Spellpower.

Except Mana Tide is reserved for a Shaman and Pagle can be in any deck. I played Arena last night with my mates and we used Overspark to ridiculous effect with a mage, turning our mirror images into Devilsaurs and their minions into squirrels (in a situation where both a squirrel and a devilsaur for the opponent or us would be fine, so not luck, just well played), that was over the course of 9 wins and Overspark came into effect in nearly every game. For the others I'd agree, but Thalnos is something I'd chuck in my deck simply because it does exactly what I need him to do - buff my spellpower combo and draw a card when he dies.

Beast is an awful card in my opinion as you just kill it and you got a free minion and he can't use it right away unless he has something to give him Charge. I had a hilarious situation with Leeroy where I took him from my opponent's hand as a priest with Mind Vision, then saved him for a Leeroy->Holy Nova combo which was just gorgeous (he died anyway, but the opponent had to waste a card and Holy Nova was perfect in the situation anyway, healing me, my minions and clearing his deck)

The only other useful legendaries which I can think of that haven't been mentioned in this discussion are Captain Greenskin, Hogger and Baron Geddon. The rest of the legendaries are too shit or so niche that they don't even need common substitutes. You'll never hit a point where you'll want to run them in your deck.

I haven't seen Greenskin once, though I can imagine he's pretty awesome for a Rogue with a poisoned Assassin's Blade (counterable by ooze, certainly, but excellent if the opponent doesn't have it right away). We used Hogger in last night's game and he did amazingly well too. We Faceless-ed him for laughs once and watched the opponent concede