Dexterity said:
1. Not true. If you're damaging yourself so much using Life Tap and Flame Imps, the game will end before turn 9. Even if you get to turn 9, that's when it's most likely that your opponent will play a large minion, meaning that if you play Jaraxxus, you're risking them killing you in one turn. They certainly won't give you enough time to setup your infernals. The only time it's safe to play Jaraxxus is if your opponent has a dead hand and is just top decking, or if you have board control, in which case, you'd win even without playing Jaraxxus.
My point is, he's not sitting there twiddling his thumbs before he gets Jaraxxus. He can keep the board clean, force your removals and damage you. If you play him right, by the time you use him, you at least have board control or have forced your opponent into topdecking. I don't mean that he's an instant, non-situational "I win" card, but if he's played right (like most other cards), he can make a huge difference.
Dexterity said:
2. You can counter it. Every good deck should have some form of finisher. Personally, in my Shaman deck, I use Al'Akir and Rockbiter Weapon as a finisher. As a backup, I also have Azure Drakes and Flamebursts so if need be, I can do a large amount of damage in a single turn. I also have quite a few taunts, so even if a Jaraxxus did play Infernals, he wouldn't be able to hit me with them for at least 3 turns. More than enough time to deal 15 damage to a hero.
It takes a lot to finish off 15 health in one turn and next turn, he has options. How about a strong minion and a taunt-giving card? Now he has 6/6, another minion and two taunts. Don't get me wrong, my spell damage build would annihilate him every time, it's not even funny. I have a mage deck that's based on "I don't give a shit about you or your minions, I can literally nuke you down from full health in 1-2 turns". However, he was a problem on my control mage (that I tend to play now as I'm running into more and more legendaries and the spell damage build can't usually ignore that)
Dexterity said:
3. His hero power replaces life tap, he won't be able to draw anymore cards after playing Jaraxxus. I also need to put emphasis on the fact that he literally cannot play ANYTHING on the turn that he plays Jaraxxus. If Jaraxxus is played, he can't remove any of your minions, he can't place any minions and he can't buff any minions already in play.
You don't life tap at 15 health most of the time. At that point, he loses a useless hero power and gains an overpowered one. And while he may not have anything to play that turn (although he might, soulfire could remove one threat to slow you down enough), next turn it's highly unlikely he doesn't.
Dexterity said:
Yeah, TODAY it was one of those times. Everyone loses games, it's a card game, there is an aspect of luck. Also, in my opinion, Malygos and Pyroblast are bad cards. 10 mana for 10 damage isn't really worth it, and Malygos is too risky and has no immediate effect on the game. You can get a lot more out of Archmage Antonidas and Fireballs.
I know, just saying, I've seen him work and thinking back on it, there was little I could've done to turn the game around and it was late in the game, so it's not like I can say "well, if better cards arrived...". Malygos and Pyro were a joke (as in, I couldn't have just finished him with the Pyro when he threw Jaraxxus down), though I'd disagree that Pyroblast is a bad card, it ends a lot of games for me, particularly in a mage control deck where I typically have board control by the end enough to finish people off (and it's not a "if you have board control you win anyway", trust me, it's made a difference plenty of times). And I agree, I'd take Antonidas in a heartbeat and go back to my spell power deck (I reckon it'd just annihilate people), but... I don't
Dexterity said:
Krush is a finisher, but frankly, I think I'd rather have Leeroy Jenkins. I mean he's a good card, but Leeroy's better and much cheaper. If I were to list class legendaries by rank, I'd probably put Krush down near the bottom with Jaraxxus and Cenarion. I'd have Tyrion Fordring and Antonidas at the top.
It's not just a finisher, as I said, he can throw it on turn 8, deal 8 damage (not something to scoff at), possibly even benefit from him being a beast and I need to waste mana and a removal to get rid of him next turn while the rest of the minions wait. And that's assuming I have a removal and I'm not already fucked
Dexterity said:
Deathwing is an ultimatum card. If you play Deathwing, he doesn't guarantee a win, but he's going to make you either win or lose. If your opponent has any instant removal, then you just discarded your entire hand for nothing. Even worse, he can get Faceless Manipulated or Mind Controlled. I own Deathwing, but I never put him in my decks, he's just simply never worth it.
True. However, Faceless still lets you either trade him or deal 12 damage, possibly finishing the opponent off. As for Mind Control... yeah, you're fucked if you play him against a Priest, I agree I wouldn't unless it was a last, desperate move.
Dexterity said:
Ysera is also a strong legendary, but a bit overrated. She has a 20% chance to give either Nightmare, Laughing Sister, Emerald Drake, Ysera Awakens or Dream, and frankly, if you remove Ysera quickly enough, none of those cards are particular overwhelmingly powerful by themselves. They might push the game in your favor, but I've won plenty of games against Ysera players.
Same. I've lost a good deal of them too though. My overall point is that no legendary card is a "I win" card by itself. But it's only a single card and the rest of your deck can easily be made to put your opponent in a position where it is. If your opponent is a Druid and he throws out Ironbarks at you, you're not going to be saving your removals in case he has a legendary coming out next turn, you need to deal with that stuff right away.
Dexterity said:
I'm not going to lie, at the end of the day, Hearthstone is pay to win, but it's a card game. All card games are pay to win. But legendaries in this game don't have as much of an impact as you might think. You just need to know which removal card to play and what cards are worth removing. After practice, your win rate goes up even against legendary decks.
That was my whole point really. Don't get me wrong, those pay to win types are usually easily outplayed (though good+pay to win is an awful combination). I damn near beat a guy throwing several legendaries at me with my Hunter deck that I both don't play and isn't very good (I was doing the daily quest with him, 's all ^^), I annihilated all his legendaries with control cards perfectly and got him to two health and an explosive trap, but you know... druid, a single armor saves him there. But legendaries were literally all that won him that game, there was zero skill involved on his part.
Dexterity said:
Almost all small legendaries are matched or close to matched by non legendary cards.
-Nat Pagle is trumped by Mana Tide Totem (especially after Pagle's huge nerf)
-Tinkmaster Overspark's effect can be mimicked by having Ancient Watcher and Ironbeak Owl (turn 3 4/5 + 2/1 which can both attack).
-Come the next patch, Mukla and Milhouse will be matched by the non legendary dancing Swords.
-Sylvanas shares a similar effect to Faceless Manipulator
-Cairne Bloodhoof can be matched by Sunwalker
-The Beast is a slightly stronger Corehound
-Harrison Jones is replaceable with Acidic Swamp Ooze
-Leeroy can be replaced by Arcane Golem or Argent Commander
-Bloodmage Thalnos can be replaced by Loot Hoarder or Kobold Geomancer depending on whether you want the card draw or Spellpower.
Except Mana Tide is reserved for a Shaman and Pagle can be in any deck. I played Arena last night with my mates and we used Overspark to ridiculous effect with a mage, turning our mirror images into Devilsaurs and their minions into squirrels (in a situation where both a squirrel and a devilsaur for the opponent or us would be fine, so not luck, just well played), that was over the course of 9 wins and Overspark came into effect in nearly every game. For the others I'd agree, but Thalnos is something I'd chuck in my deck simply because it does exactly what I need him to do - buff my spellpower combo and draw a card when he dies.
Beast is an awful card in my opinion as you just kill it and you got a free minion and he can't use it right away unless he has something to give him Charge. I had a hilarious situation with Leeroy where I took him from my opponent's hand as a priest with Mind Vision, then saved him for a Leeroy->Holy Nova combo which was just gorgeous (he died anyway, but the opponent had to waste a card and Holy Nova was perfect in the situation anyway, healing me, my minions and clearing his deck)
Dexterity said:
The only other useful legendaries which I can think of that haven't been mentioned in this discussion are Captain Greenskin, Hogger and Baron Geddon. The rest of the legendaries are too shit or so niche that they don't even need common substitutes. You'll never hit a point where you'll want to run them in your deck.
I haven't seen Greenskin once, though I can imagine he's pretty awesome for a Rogue with a poisoned Assassin's Blade (counterable by ooze, certainly, but excellent if the opponent doesn't have it right away). We used Hogger in last night's game and he did amazingly well too. We Faceless-ed him for laughs once and watched the opponent concede