Heroes fighting for the wrong cause?

[Thaliur]

I recently got to thinking about some people who should be considered heroes because even though what they fought for was wrong, they did it the right way.

The first person that comes to my mind in that category would be Erwin Rommel. He was a General in the Second World War and fought for Germany in the African deserts.
Now why should a Nazi commander be a hero? Because he was fair. That basically sums it up.
He defied orders to kill Jewish civilians, he treated the prisoners of war with apparently reasonable respect, and he tried to avoid collateral damages. He still fought for Nazi Germany, but he respected his country's enemies as well. These are things even today's strongest army doesn't seem to understand.

Another one was Wernher von Braun, in my opinion (yes, I'm a bit biased. I grew up in Germany, so I was forced to learn all about WW2. Over and over again...).
He did work on militay missiles for the Hitler regime, admittedly, but he was still a brilliant scientist and engineer, which really deserves some praise, and he continued working for the alliance after he was captured.


Now what about you? Do you also know some "fallen angels" like those two? I guess I'll accept fictional characters too, as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

 

[Maet]

(I thought this was going to be about the TV show...)

I don't know if I would call either of those two "Heroes" because they basically earn the title for being a decent person in power when everyone around them were violent idiots. I'm not disputing the fact that what they did and perhaps the example they set was admirable, just that they only seem like Heroes by comparison. KFC to a homeless child might seem like five star cuisine, but that comparison doesn't make it true of everyone.

Anyway, I think a hero is more likely defined by the noble cause, and not exactly being exceptional for the wrong cause. I've never put much thought into this subject, so my ideas are probably half baked.

 

[fulano]

I prophecize that this thread will go down in flames shortly. Mark my words.

As for them being heroic, I guess they were mostly fair. Rommel was doing his job and so was Von Braun, both of them did what they were supposed to be doing. Namely, working for their country. Though Rommel had balls, that's for sure.

 

[Imitation Saccharin]

when everyone around them were violent idiots

You know I once read a somewhat apocryphal story that Hitler would often detain his top officials until late in the afternoon and make them listen to him prattle on about some random art crap he happened to be doing.
I heard another that he would assign different organizations intentionally vague jurisdiction, in the hopes they'd fight and the stronger would dominate.


Thus I propose Hitler's stupidity is in a weird way heroic. His dumb ass probably saved many thousands of lives by keeping more competent men (like Rommuel) from being truly effective.

 

[Darthracoon]

I think Richard the Lionheart is a pretty "wrongly-fighting hero" he fight for a god whom condems those who kill and all the while he kills jews and muslims.

 

[Thaliur]

Anyway, I think a hero is more likely defined by the noble cause, and not exactly being exceptional for the wrong cause.

OK, in that case we have quite different definitions of a hero.
To me, a hero always was a person who does the right thing in a dire situation, even if it opposes the rules he is supposed to act by.
A Firefighter endangering his own life to save others for example, although risking your own life is considered "bad tactics" in the emergency services, or even a soldier deserting at the right time.

I prophecize that this thread will go down in flames shortly. Mark my words.

As for them being heroic, I guess they were mostly fair. Rommel was doing his job and so was Von Braun, both of them did what they were supposed to be doing. Namely, working for their country. Though Rommel had balls, that's for sure.

Your prophecy might be correct. I thought about opening this thread for about two days now, but this afternoon I decided I could risk it.
Well, we'll see how it works out.

I guess you're right about von Braun just doing his job. After all, he was expected to research aerodynamics and rocket drives and had a huge budget. I still think he was a good scientist though, but probably not a hero.

Thus I propose Hitler's stupidity is in a weird way heroic. His dumb ass probably saved many thousands of lives by keeping more competent men (like Rommuel) from being truly effective.

interesting point. I, too, think that Hitler was not stupid. He had inherently wrong views, but he (or his advisors) must have been quite intelligent to manage all he initiated.
Same for Goebbels, by the way. He was certainly a racist of the worst kind, but he knew how to control a crowd and how to force his views onto other people. Dangerous combination, as history has proven.

But could we move away from Third Reich personalities now? All those years of history lessons somehow make me feel like today's Germans are not allowed to praise any aspect of this time at all, and although I didn't have history lessons since I graduated, I still feel a bit uncomfortable.


How about a nice forceful push into another direction? The suicide pilots who crashed into you-know-what kinda fit into the hero pattern.
They were willing to sacrifice themselves (admittedly along with several thousand other people) for what they believed in. That's a rare kind of courage in our world. Although definitely put to abominable use

 

[werepossum]

I recently got to thinking about some people who should be considered heroes because even though what they fought for was wrong, they did it the right way.

The first person that comes to my mind in that category would be Erwin Rommel. He was a General in the Second World War and fought for Germany in the African deserts.
Now why should a Nazi commander be a hero? Because he was fair. That basically sums it up.
He defied orders to kill Jewish civilians, he treated the prisoners of war with apparently reasonable respect, and he tried to avoid collateral damages. He still fought for Nazi Germany, but he respected his country's enemies as well. These are things even today's strongest army doesn't seem to understand.

Another one was Wernher von Braun, in my opinion (yes, I'm a bit biased. I grew up in Germany, so I was forced to learn all about WW2. Over and over again...).
He did work on militay missiles for the Hitler regime, admittedly, but he was still a brilliant scientist and engineer, which really deserves some praise, and he continued working for the alliance after he was captured.


Now what about you? Do you also know some "fallen angels" like those two? I guess I'll accept fictional characters too, as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

I don't know I would say either were heroic, but in the same vein of admirable men in a bad cause, Michael Wittman, tanker ace. Had he survived, he would have been an asset to Germany. Actually, Germany had a great number of admirable military men in WW2. I don't think German front-line military troops behaved significantly worse than any soldiers on balance, with the exception being some (not all) SS units.

Have to admit I can't think of a single example of a heroic figure in a bad cause.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

Erwin Rommel was awesome. I constantly get into arguments about how he was technically a hero, but friends and family automaticaly discout him for the whole "he's german" thing.
Also I think he looks a bit like Michael Palin.

 

[Maet]

OK, in that case we have quite different definitions of a hero.
To me, a hero always was a person who does the right thing in a dire situation, even if it opposes the rules he is supposed to act by.
A Firefighter endangering his own life to save others for example, although risking your own life is considered "bad tactics" in the emergency services, or even a soldier deserting at the right time.

My definition of a hero is pretty loose to begin with. I just never really thought about what a hero means to me. And every time I do, my brain gets bogged down in moral and ethical quandaries, and I end up with nothing.

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

Rommel was a nazi (there was documentary debunking the myth he wasn't) but even if just been a "soldier", anyone who signs up with evil who helps prolong its existence deserves condemnation not praise, if it hadn't been tying down British forces in north africa maybe they could of liberated Italy or Greece sooner who know how many more lives could of been saved from the butchery of the nazis. as for Von Braun, a benecifary of the cold war and operation paper clip, i think one of his american collegues at NASA said it best when commented on his autobiography, I aim for the stars but sometimes i hit London. he aided a regime of the most wretched evil if he'd been a hero he'd of defected to the allies. if you want to be proud of someone be proud of Fritz Kolbe, Julius Leber or Kurt Schmacher, hell be proud of the SPD the only party that consistently opposed the nazis not like every other party that still around from those days that just cowered and appeased.
if you want to be proud of someone i've got a list for you of 450 Germans that are heroes, learn about their heroism here http://www.yadvashem.org/
and remember
whoever destroys a life, destroys the entire world. And whoever saves a life, saves the entire world.

 

[Thaliur]

Erwin Rommel was awesome. I constantly get into arguments about how he was technically a hero, but friends and family automaticaly discout him for the whole "he's german" thing.
Also I think he looks a bit like Michael Palin.

That's almost exactly my experience. We were never taught about him in school, everything and every German at that time except for Anne Frank was supposed to be evil, and DARE you say "The Desert Fox was quite okay I think" during a history lesson... (I did that once, instead of being happy that one of the pupils looked up some aspects of Nazi Germany without being told so, our history teacher went almost mad. Apparently, seeing things from multiple points of view is forbidden if Nazis are involved)

I never noticed his similarity to Michael Palin, but now that you mention it... amazing!

 

[meatloaf231]

My hero when I was younger was Gunther Prien. In my opinion, the GREATEST U-boat Commander. If he hadn't been killed, he easily would have had the most tonnage in the war.

Germany had some crazy badass U-boat shenanigans during WWII

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

My hero when I was younger was Gunther Prien. In my opinion, the GREATEST U-boat Commander. If he hadn't been killed, he easily would have had the most tonnage in the war.

Germany had some crazy badass U-boat shenanigans during WWII

wow a man who left countless sailors to drown, who were only trying to keep open the lifelines to those nations so desperately fighting to save themselves from the tyranny of nazi germany.

 

[Scolar Visari]

Rommel was a nazi (there was documentary debunking the myth he wasn't) but even if just been a "soldier", anyone who signs up with evil who helps prolong its existence deserves condemnation not praise, if it hadn't been tying down British forces in north africa maybe they could of liberated Italy or Greece sooner who know how many more lives could of been saved from the butchery of the nazis. as for Von Braun, a benecifary of the cold war and operation paper clip, i think one of his american collegues at NASA said it best when commented on his autobiography, I aim for the stars but sometimes i hit London. he aided a regime of the most wretched evil if he'd been a hero he'd of defected to the allies. if you want to be proud of someone be proud of Fritz Kolbe, Julius Leber or Kurt Schmacher, hell be proud of the SPD the only party that consistently opposed the nazis not like every other party that still around from those days that just cowered and appeased.
if you want to be proud of someone i've got a list for you of 450 Germans that are heroes, learn about their heroism here http://www.yadvashem.org/
and remember
whoever destroys a life, destroys the entire world. And whoever saves a life, saves the entire world.

Going to need some sort of source on that Rommel was a Nazi stuff. Every book and bit of info I read points to Rommel fighting for Germany not Hitler and not the Nazis. Just remember that not every German wanted to be in that war.

 

[The Iron Ninja]

I hate it when people assume that a german in the 1940s is automatically a nazi. (and by that I mean that they hold true to all Nazi beleifs. Hell, Shindler was a Nazi, does that make him bad?)
*looks at Captain Jack Doicy and shakes fist*

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

Going to need some sort of source on that Rommel was a Nazi stuff. Every book and bit of info I read points to Rommel fighting for Germany not Hitler and not the Nazis. Just remember that not every German wanted to be in that war.

It was Channel 4 documentary called Rommel: hitler General or something similiar. but please explain to me how fighting for Germany is different from fighting for the nazis? given that the entire operatus of the state was directed towards the nazis aims? so then by your definition then Fritz Kolbe, Julius Leber or Kurt Schmacher were all traitors?

all evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Zombie_King]

/Picture
Although, now that I think about it, not specifying which side in Iraq consists of the heroes makes it so much more delicious of a picture to use.

Your picture is stretching out my browser. You will be found. You will be eaten.

 

[Eyclonus]

Doicy don't talk about WW2 without any credible backing.

In the African War Rommel was very respectful of the British, and Commonwealth forces, especially during the siege of Tobruk. At one point he lamented the British officers for using the colonials cannon fodder and treating their soldiers as material.

Plus given Germany's state between WW1 and WW2 its kind of hard to not understand their reasons for war.

 

[MercenaryCanary]

I think we can all agree that Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw is the real hero in every situation.On a serious note I'd have to say it'd be zombies as they provide a guilt free way of violence.

 

[Capt_Jack_Doicy]

I think Doicy is the one who will lead this topic into a flame war soon...

Also, I agree on Rommel. Yes, he fought for Germany, but he did it because he was fighting for his COUNTRY, not the Third Reich, as is evidenced by his participation in the attempted Officers Coup on July 20, 1944 on Adolf Hitler, and then poisoned HIMSELF in order to avoid the SS and to save his family.

Rommel was a hero, even though he fought for Germany. And anything saying he was a full-fledged Nazi is false. He may have fought for the Nazi's (though it is much more likely he fought for GERMANY), and he might've been Hilters' personal adviser and the one who tried to upgrade the Normandy defenses after the losses in North Africa, but he did not, in good conscious, commit mass-murder of POW's or Jews.

I'm flaming because i disagree? because you want to make heroes out of accomplices to genocide?

first Rommel was wrongly accused of participation in the plot and even if he had been a member that would of been no sign of heroism, the plot, which was merely the German army attempt to rid themselves of hitler once he had become a liability. his country was Nazi Germany by 1939 you couldn't extracate one from the other so he was fighting for the Nazi.

but here a simple question for you if rommel had surrender the afika corp to the allies as soon as it arrived, do you think that would of help or hindered the allies in winning the war?