Heteronormaltivity in games

[Silvanus]

Major props on your avatar. One of my favorite TV series of all time.

Hah, thanks!

This actually isn't true. Even playing a game with a stable and strong character (with clearly expressed characteristics, not physically strong) like Nathan Drake, that character is still the player's avatar and the player still sees it as them playing as that avatar. Please bear in mind this isn't to say that playing as avatars that are drastically different from the individual are necessarily a bad thing. Just that they see the avatar as themselves because that's what they're controlling. No different than the concept that the mouse pointer on a screen is you. Even now, you are expressing overall discontent with none of your avatars reflecting your personhood to the extent you'd want. This very conversation wouldn't exist if that wasn't the case.

That's a pretty good point, actually; you're right. My grievance wouldn't be here if even written characters weren't regarded as avatars of the player to some degree. I guess it just smarts to put myself in their shoes, and then watch them act in ways that are slightly alienating in a personal capacity.

(I think there are one or two exceptions, such as James Sunderland & Paxton Fettel, with whom the player is truly playing someone else's story-- but I have changed my mind on this point; I think you're right in almost all cases).

I really hope I didn't step on your toes here. I'm just trying to discuss it in a realistic and honest manner.

Not at all. Your response has been one of the most well thought-out that I've seen here. I really appreciate the sensitivity you've shown towards it.

Customisation is certainly a plus, and I also take heart when games incorporate gay secondary characters (such as Bill, who many have brought up, and Caithe & Faolain, who I haven't seen mentioned yet).

 

[Aramis Night]

I know its not quite the same but this thread was actually reminding me of another character who was gay and done incredibly well in a video game imo. I think Caithe from Guild Wars 2 was incredibly well done. If you create a sylvari and play through the personal story you see Caithe struggle with her feelings for her former lesbian partner who she clearly still has feelings for even though they are on opposite sides of a faction war among their people and trying to kill/convert each other. I thought that aspect of the story was handled really well. It wasn't heavy handed about "HEY, WE HAVE LESBIANS!!! It was just 2 people that had a past relationship that still affects their motivations. Even as a straight male, I was able to empathize with caithe.

Sure, it's not a protagonist. But the fact that it is a main character and yet flew completely under people's radar despite being a game that millions play, I think shows progress.

 

[Aramis Night]

Customisation is certainly a plus, and I also take heart when games incorporate gay secondary characters (such as Bill, who many have brought up, and Caithe & Faolain, who I haven't seen mentioned yet).

Damn, you beat me to it. Just as I was working out how to bring Caithe and Faolain up.

 

[Miss G.]

I don't get what this thread is suggesting.
Are we suggesting that 15% of romance plots in mainstream games should be homosexual?
Are we suggesting it should be more than 15%? If so how does that make sense when only 15% of the worlds population are gay?
Or are we suggesting that if there's a hetero romance option, there should be a homo romance option as well, so as to avoid exclusion?
I wont have noticed because I'm not gay, but is there a shortage of games where gay romance options are a possibility?

Neither am I, but I am a slash fan (even more so after discovering Supernatural) and sometimes all the hetero-romance gets to me, especially if/when I can see more meaningful same- sex relationship options if there's a lot of subtext or chemistry hanging around. I may not play games for romance plots, but they are in a lot of the games I play, JRPGs- especially with all the bishounen man-candy, so it'd be a nice option for me and other slash/yaoi fans when the romance is something that cannot be skipped altogether in the game.

Why is it that games with create a character modes are discounted in these kinds of discussions?

Because they are, by definition, blank slate and the story/plot (provided it has one) is really neutral so that anything you pick has little to no effect on how certain things play out, even if the option is just boy or girl, and in the case of fantasy, a few throw away lines to acknowledge that you picked 'Elf' or something as a race but nothing else. With even just having boy or girl options for a set story SMT P3P did it fine because they went through the trouble of scripting a whole other game within the game to fit the female route, so you get to see all the changes in dynamics a female would've dealt with had she been the protagonist in the original story and finally you can date the boys. For those who just want to play the original story, but with all the nice updated gameplay mechanics included, all they have to do is pick 'boy' when they get to the start menu.

Done this way, fans who wanted a second option get that itch scratched and the ones that don't aren't inconvenienced, but I do understand that that sort've dedicated fan-service probably isn't done by game makers often, if at all.

 

[Lightknight]

That's a pretty good point, actually; you're right. My grievance wouldn't be here if even written characters weren't regarded as avatars of the player to some degree. I guess it just smarts to put myself in their shoes, and then watch them act in ways that are slightly alienating in a personal capacity.

(I think there are one or two exceptions, such as James Sunderland & Paxton Fettel, with whom the player is truly playing someone else's story-- but I have changed my mind on this point; I think you're right in almost all cases).

I'd agree that there are some exceptions too. For example, Thomas Was Alone has no true stable protagonist due to the amount of shifting around between avatars. Thomas would of course be the closest but certainly none of the other avatars. But these are generally the exception. I'm glad we could come into agreement on the basic point.

Not at all. Your response has been one of the most well thought-out that I've seen here. I really appreciate the sensitivity you've shown towards it.

Customisation is certainly a plus, and I also take heart when games incorporate gay secondary characters (such as Bill, who many have brought up, and Caithe & Faolain, who I haven't seen mentioned yet).

Great! Feel free to contact me any time if you want to discuss this privately in the future should we not cross paths again in the forums (I do read my messages). Good luck to you getting content that relates to you in the future and Go team venture!

 

[Weaver]

I kind of feel like, let's be honest, relationships in games are generally shoved to the sidelines if they even have them at all. A well written relationship in a game scarcely exist, let alone a homosexual one. If Activision came out and said Soap from Call of Duty 4 was gay, would that make everyone happy? Relationships aren't explored in that game, or most games, as the character is supposed to be a surrogate for the player so they put as little description as possible.

I was talking to Christine Love at a convention last weekend, the lesbian (as it's relevant to this conversation) visual novel creator who made Analog: A Hate Story and she said she took great pains to never state a gender or sexual orientation for the player character in the VN so it was easier for people to insert themselves into it.

In this case, why not just make assumptions about characters you want? Make Gordon Freeman a homosexual in your mind, it doesn't matter if it makes you happy and his sexual orientation is never hinted at.

Also, this isn't something pertaining only to games. Most movies and novels generally only portray heterosexual relationships as well. I'm not saying this is good, but there are simply more straight people out there and the market acceptance for conventionally written characters likely has more money in it.

Games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age let you be whatever sexuality you want, which is awesome; but this kind of free form character building generally only works best in RPGs.

 

[Smeatza]

Neither am I, but I am a slash fan (even more so after discovering Supernatural) and sometimes all the hetero-romance gets to me, especially if/when I can see more meaningful same- sex relationship options if there's a lot of subtext or chemistry hanging around.

See I can understand that, if the relationship is implied through subtext or character chemistry, but the developers/producers are afraid/refuse to go all the way then I can see the concerns.

I may not play games for romance plots, but they are in a lot of the games I play, JRPGs- especially with all the bishounen man-candy, so it'd be a nice option for me and other slash/yaoi fans when the romance is something that cannot be skipped altogether in the game.

Now this I don't understand. I can understand you wanting it as an option but to say it should be unskippable seems really strange.
See I would fall in the radically different camp that thinks all romance plots, hetero or homo, should be optional and skippable. After all there are many people who simply do not care about romance in their games at all. And seen as most romance plots in non-romance games are simply injected in to tick a box, little to no story or character development would be lost.
What about asexual folks? Why should they have to sit through these unskippable romance plots?

Because they are, by definition, blank slate and the story/plot (provided it has one) is really neutral so that anything you pick has little to no effect on how certain things play out, even if the option is just boy or girl, and in the case of fantasy, a few throw away lines to acknowledge that you picked 'Elf' or something as a race but nothing else. With even just having boy or girl options for a set story SMT P3P did it fine because they went through the trouble of scripting a whole other game within the game to fit the female route, so you get to see all the changes in dynamics a female would've dealt with had she been the protagonist in the original story and finally you can date the boys. For those who just want to play the original story, but with all the nice updated gameplay mechanics included, all they have to do is pick 'boy' when they get to the start menu.

Done this way, fans who wanted a second option get that itch scratched and the ones that don't aren't inconvenienced, but I do understand that that sort've dedicated fan-service probably isn't done by game makers often, if at all.

That doesn't explain to me why said games don't count in discussions such as these.
You may have an issue with the general quality of writing in said games, but that doesn't remove their homosexual romance plots from existence.
Plus the writing quality in such games isn't univerally or inherently bad.
Let's take Mass Effect 3 as an example. The romance between male Shepard and Steve Cortez is the deepest romance plot in the game and it prompts a fair chunk of character development, but that game has a character creator, requires one to make choices and said romantic subplot is skippable.

 

[NightWolf22]

Romance whether it's homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual shouldn't be in games at all.

 

[Lightknight]

Romance whether it's homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual shouldn't be in games at all.

Do you believe the same in art, books, movies, and television? Romance is pretty core to the human experience and should absolutely be incorporated in gaming. We deal with romantic issues in real life all the time.

Perhaps you misunderstand the average gamer. If you don't include iOS gamers and deal with pc gamers/console gamers then you need to understand that we're in our 30's on average. We aren't children. Games aren't just Elmo travels to Asian Sesame Street. Titles need to have grownup themes just like any other form of media does. It'd be silly to say that games shouldn't have any of those aspects.

Games are also rated by the intended audience. 18+, why not have romance or at least the option thereof? We're not necessarily talking graphic porn or something here (Though that shouldn't be out of the question just like it isn't in other media). Just boy likes girl and does something to win her heart at the most basic level at least.

 

[Thr33X]

For there to be a gay hero/heroine, there would have to be a certain level of choice be granted to the user to make this happen. You can't have a gay main character JUST for the sake of him or her being gay. What's the reason for their struggle? Where does it have anything to do with the plot of the story or the conflict of the game? If you just arbitrarily make a main character gay with no other reasoning aside from "we wanted to make him/her that way", you're not really innovating character development, you're just simply sliding in the fact that he/she is homosexual, which has no real significance to the game.

On the other hand, if the character's sexual preference DID have significance to the game, chances are only gay people are going to play it because it relates to them. For example, there are several gay/lesbian TV networks here in the US. 90% of their viewership however is within the gay community. What is intriguing or appealing a non-gay person to watch these networks? Where is the benefit within this? The same question would apply to game that features homosexuality as a plot device. What reason would a straight person have to play it?

On a completely objective level, the reason why we don't see gay protagonists in gaming is because there is no demand for them, and any usage or placement of them would be completely niche, and in the modern market of gaming where companies want franchises that span as broad of a demographic as possible, that's not a good business strategy.

All in all, the subject of sexuality and sexual preference in gaming is best left as it is in my opinion. Games such as Mass Effect and more recently Saints Row 4 do it right in that they give the player themselves the option to choose their personal preferences. That's best course of action there, make it a choice and not a requirement...then everyone is happy.

 

[Tribalism]

Games usually do a "don't ask, don't tell" with most of their protagonists/characters and the model works very well.

If it's integral to the plot, many will see it as pushing an agenda and that this "experience" can be told better in movies and books where more time can be spent on the writing. Gone Home is the latest example of this, offering an "experience", but not really a solid game with good gameplay or replayability. Regardless of professional reviews, there has been a reasonable amount of backlash against this game and the plot seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back, though the game has many other faults.

If it's not integral to the plot, it doesn't need to be made a big deal out of, in the same manner that homosexuality in real life shouldn't be a big deal. Some characters are "the gay guy" or "the dyke", which is a huge example of poor writing just like a villain that's evil "just because". The best character traits are the ones which are drawn out through the events of a game and how the characters react to them or the traits which are the result of a well told backstory. For a character's orientation, sometimes you'll have to look at the clues and deduce for yourself, much in the same way as real life. Being told someone is gay is usually a poor move. An approach similar to one of the waitresses in Catherine (...I honestly forget the names since I haven't played it myself) sounds about right, which broached the subject of trans people quite professionally.

Don't ask, don't tell. There are potentially a lot of gay characters out there, you just never see them or they're left to your interpretation.

 

[Miss G.]

I may not play games for romance plots, but they are in a lot of the games I play, JRPGs- especially with all the bishounen man-candy, so it'd be a nice option for me and other slash/yaoi fans when the romance is something that cannot be skipped altogether in the game.

Now this I don't understand. I can understand you wanting it as an option but to say it should be unskippable seems really strange.
See I would fall in the radically different camp that thinks all romance plots, hetero or homo, should be optional and skippable. After all there are many people who simply do not care about romance in their games at all. And seen as most romance plots in non-romance games are simply injected in to tick a box, little to no story or character development would be lost.
What about asexual folks? Why should they have to sit through these unskippable romance plots?

I never said that they should be unskippable. I said that when the game makes them unskippable I would at least like to have the option with the man on man-candy (or girl on girl if I actually like their characters AND their chemistry) to look at. e.g If I'm playing FFX I have no choice but to sit through the romance even though I don't care for Tidus and Yuna getting together but if Yuna and Lulu were being a little romantic fine, at least they had a background and more reason to spend some last moments together and it could be sweet and touching. Also, in regards to your last questions, I am asexual, but I still like looking at written relationships ('cuz that doesn't carry-over to real life, for me) through my slash-goggles just 'cuz I think its cute, if that makes sense,... oh, anime.

 

[Demongeneral109]

It again comes down to the fact that sexuality is irrelevant in about 90% of human interaction, and about 99% of video game character interaction(which generally falls into the 'shoot at' category. The reason I say it needs to be at a central element is that if it simply doesn't matter, then why bring it up? Its true that gay people can be the hero in a war...ect... but when would this ever come up? Hell, one could argue that Ramirez in COD could be gay, or price, or any number of action protagonist, but since it doesn't matter, there is no need to add the extrenious detail. That is why it needs to be central, otherwise it comes across as pandering, When everyone found out dumbledore was gay, the gay community actually got kind of pissed because it totally didn't matter for his character and came across as pandering.

Romance is indeed irrelevant to COD.

Romance was not irrelevant to FF7, 8 & X, Nightfall, Dead Space (mostly #1), Heavy Rain, Shadow of the Colossus, the Uncharted series, Red Dead, & Braid. That's just games I have direct experience of. It's simply not true that romance is never relevant in games. Romance, not sexuality; If I was advocating a straight romance in something, nobody would accuse me of trying to bring "sexuality" into it.

Dumbledore's sexuality was somewhat relevant to his background with Gellert Grindelwald, actually.

It was relevant to Dumbledore's background maybe, but not to the story of Harry Potter.. aka the important part, so the point stands. As for the idea that your advocating straight sexuality would be ignored, we hate shoehorned romance where it isn't needed, like someone else said, it becomes a checklist thing. Also, anything prior to a few years ago is irrelevant, as homosexuality wasn't socially acceptable until very recently, so FF VII, for instance, is kind of immune to criticism in that department. You also have to remember that story is heavily based in cliche and tropes, one of which is 'rescue the princess' which allows the familiarity of story to offset the initial strangeness of the setting.

Hold on, im getting beyond my point here:

Ok, listen... the only time, at this point, where homosexuality can be in a story and not be the central point... is in games taking place in the future ala mass effect, because we can establish that it has become socially acceptable. In any other setting outside of ancient sparta or something, there are unique challenges to being gay that simply don't exist for ordinary people... look at keji from Persona 4, where his entire character arc revolves around his self rejection. You wouldn't ask someone to make a black man the star of a movie in the 50's and treat is as normal; why would you ask for a gay man center stage today and acting as if it is normal? As bad as that sounds, its a very similar situation, until popular culture accepts it as the norm, there is no reason to try. It doesn't reflect the reality gay people face, nor the one a straight person perceives them facing; it doesn't come across as realistic and breaks immersion. Like i've been saying, what you want will come with time, but today is simply not that day.

 

[Demongeneral109]

I may not play games for romance plots, but they are in a lot of the games I play, JRPGs- especially with all the bishounen man-candy, so it'd be a nice option for me and other slash/yaoi fans when the romance is something that cannot be skipped altogether in the game.

Now this I don't understand. I can understand you wanting it as an option but to say it should be unskippable seems really strange.
See I would fall in the radically different camp that thinks all romance plots, hetero or homo, should be optional and skippable. After all there are many people who simply do not care about romance in their games at all. And seen as most romance plots in non-romance games are simply injected in to tick a box, little to no story or character development would be lost.
What about asexual folks? Why should they have to sit through these unskippable romance plots?

I never said that they should be unskippable. I said that when the game makes them unskippable I would at least like to have the option with the man on man-candy (or girl on girl if I actually like their characters AND their chemistry) to look at. e.g If I'm playing FFX I have no choice but to sit through the romance even though I don't care for Tidus and Yuna getting together but if Yuna and Lulu were being a little romantic fine, at least they had a background and more reason to spend some last moments together and it could be sweet and touching. Also, in regards to your last questions, I am asexual, but I still like looking at written relationships ('cuz that doesn't carry-over to real life, for me) through my slash-goggles just 'cuz I think its cute, if that makes sense,... oh, anime.

I honestly think that the Tidus/Yuna thing is a bit forced, what with how the plot keeps coming up with reasons to shoehorn them together. I honestly thought Rikku had better chemistry with Tidus then Yuna. I dont see Yuna/Lulu though, Belts is too much a big sis for that.

 

[Silvanus]

Ok, listen... the only time, at this point, where homosexuality can be in a story and not be the central point... is in games taking place in the future ala mass effect, because we can establish that it has become socially acceptable. In any other setting outside of ancient sparta or something, there are unique challenges to being gay that simply don't exist for ordinary people... look at keji from Persona 4, where his entire character arc revolves around his self rejection. You wouldn't ask someone to make a black man the star of a movie in the 50's and treat is as normal; why would you ask for a gay man center stage today and acting as if it is normal? As bad as that sounds, its a very similar situation, until popular culture accepts it as the norm, there is no reason to try. It doesn't reflect the reality gay people face, nor the one a straight person perceives them facing; it doesn't come across as realistic and breaks immersion. Like i've been saying, what you want will come with time, but today is simply not that day.

I understand, and certainly agree that gay people experience unique challenges. Absolutely. But that's not all we experience. We can still have romances that function as straight peoples' do: as motivators, as character development.

I'm inclined to agree that better-balanced representation can only come with time, but I don't think it's unreasonable of me to criticise the current imbalance. Whether the problem lies with the game-makers or with the culture of the gamers; I'm content, at this point, to just point out that the imbalance exists, and that it can be alienating when so much media, not solely games, is skewed towards under-representation.

But, I must say, I am not inclined to believe a well-made game with a gay protagonist would be unable to find a significant market. Not every game need be marketed at the majority of gamers. Hell, Jim Sterling's been validly hammering that point for a while now. If a game about bureaucracy can find a niche, so one with a gay protagonist can.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Well, since someone necro'd the thread, I'll go ahead and post a game that does in fact have a homosexual protagonist that is not a create your own character protagonist. I had somehow forgotten about it even though I had just recently watched an LP of the game when this topic was still fresh.

I present to you, PISS.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/16/fancy-a-decent-adventure-then-go-for-a-piss/

It's a very intelligent game with unique characters and an interesting story.

 

[Miss G.]

I may not play games for romance plots, but they are in a lot of the games I play, JRPGs- especially with all the bishounen man-candy, so it'd be a nice option for me and other slash/yaoi fans when the romance is something that cannot be skipped altogether in the game.

Now this I don't understand. I can understand you wanting it as an option but to say it should be unskippable seems really strange.
See I would fall in the radically different camp that thinks all romance plots, hetero or homo, should be optional and skippable. After all there are many people who simply do not care about romance in their games at all. And seen as most romance plots in non-romance games are simply injected in to tick a box, little to no story or character development would be lost.
What about asexual folks? Why should they have to sit through these unskippable romance plots?

I never said that they should be unskippable. I said that when the game makes them unskippable I would at least like to have the option with the man on man-candy (or girl on girl if I actually like their characters AND their chemistry) to look at. e.g If I'm playing FFX I have no choice but to sit through the romance even though I don't care for Tidus and Yuna getting together but if Yuna and Lulu were being a little romantic fine, at least they had a background and more reason to spend some last moments together and it could be sweet and touching. Also, in regards to your last questions, I am asexual, but I still like looking at written relationships ('cuz that doesn't carry-over to real life, for me) through my slash-goggles just 'cuz I think its cute, if that makes sense,... oh, anime.

I honestly think that the Tidus/Yuna thing is a bit forced, what with how the plot keeps coming up with reasons to shoehorn them together. I honestly thought Rikku had better chemistry with Tidus then Yuna. I dont see Yuna/Lulu though, Belts is too much a big sis for that.

Well, they do have Brother who likes his 1st cousin, Yuna, so it's not like they're not above even blood relatives feeling those kinds of feelings in X. I agree that Tidus and Rikku do seem like they would be a cute couple. It still sucks that whoever you have the most relationship points with has no bearing on the plot, Tidus and Yuna will be forced together no matter what, so why give us the illusion of choice?

 

[The Lunatic]

Honestly, games these days struggle to even put black and female player characters into games.


A major release in which there is a player character who is gay, and the player has no choice over that, is a very long way off.

It's too much of a risk in a market which is known for being very polarised and reactive to any form of change.