Which brings me back to the question of "who is doing that?"Ushiromiya Battler said:
Who is blaming them?
And to do that, you're stereotyping and generalising people.
#HetrosexualPrideDay
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Part of the issue is that the organization or group should work to keep out the bad apples. I don't blame all cops for being racist and shooting unarmed black people. I do blame the ones that act like there are no racist cops in their job. When Quentin Tarantino called out racist cops, a bunch of Police Unions boycotted his latest movie and urged others to not offer security for his film. I certainly blame all of those unions for being part of the problem.Ushiromiya Battler said:
I don't blame all Christians for their religion's bigotry, but I blame those who get mad at ME for being persecuted by them as if me defending myself is some sort of religious attack.
Acting like there is no problem is adding to the problem.
And no, not all white people, or men either, are guilty. Plenty of white men are gay. And not all straights are to blame, since many are women or black. But anyone, straight, white, gay, male, female, or black, who pretend there is no issue, aren't helping.
As for straight people, which are not a unified organization, no, not all are to blame. But generalizing is easier because....well, there are billions of straight people, and I don't remember names well. I do think sometimes people get a bit carried away, but the thing is, while there are some damaging self-hating homosexuals out there, I'm betting most people who are bigoted against LGBT people...aren't LGBT.
Straight people, white people, gay people, black people...etc..etc.Something Amyss said:
Just to clarify, I'm talking about people I've met or spoken to. I'm talking about people I've spoken to on the internet and vidoes I've seen of people.
I've also spoken to and met people who didn't blame all white people or all straight people.
I'm not saying all gay people or all black people or whatever.
My whole point as I have said over and over again is that generalizing and stereotyping is idiotic.
I'm sorry, I don't see where anything you said contradicts anything I said.Saelune said:
The only thing I disagree with is that it's okay to generalize because It's easier than not.
Everything else I agree with.
Except for the fact that it's those in the privileged groups who are least likely to stand up for the rights of the oppressed... In which case... I see no problem with generalizing, because if you're not in some way trying to solve the issue, you're part of the apathetic majority who lets the issue exist... Color me unimpressed. When any group has to assert it's equality via force of law, that's a massive cultural failure, one that could easily turn back on it self and take the hard won rights of minorities away... So wah the majority is forced to look at it's privilege, god for bid they offer equality to those who have spent their entire lives being wronged... You know because being culturally entitled vanishes with a freaking law...Ushiromiya Battler said:
First... Trans folk are not "transgenders", that's fucking dehumanizing language... Transgender is an adjective not a noun, if you wish to refer to people who are transgender it's 'transgender people'... We aren't some in human mass afflicted on the world, we're just people who happen to hard neurologically coded gender identities opposite our physical sex.Ushiromiya Battler said:
Second... Don't be so proud of Norway's "progress"... Your country isn't one of the few that offers constitutionally equal rights to LGBTQI+ folk, like it offers straight and cisgender folk... [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-lgbt-rights-idUSKCN0ZF1IC] For the record those countries are: Bolivia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivia], Ecuador [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuador], Fiji [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji], Malta [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta], and the United Kingdom... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom] Heck Norway that isn't even one of the 5 other countries that offer constitutional protection on the basis of sexual orientation alone... Which are: Mexico [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico], New Zealand [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand], Portugal [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal], South Africa [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa], and Sweden [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden]... Yeah that's not a lot of places where sexuality, let alone gender identity based discrimination are truly forbidden... Not to mention how nearly impossible it is to bring a case when the law constitutionally is actually on your side...
This doesn't address a single thing I said.Ushiromiya Battler said:
Riiiiiight. So it has no relevance to what anyone's talking about here?
You are, however, generalising arguments.
Speaking generally is not idiotic. However, if you feel it's an issue, don't do it.
Just to be clear, you responded to Phasmal saying straight pride is an issue because people are tired of being blamed by some nondescript people that you've allegedly met. So are you seriously expecting me to believe it had no connection or relevance to the person you directly quoted?
We don't have to disagree, I was just elaborating basically.Ushiromiya Battler said:
As for generalizing, people are human and can understand subtly better than robots. I don't generalize because I mean all of a group. If I meant all of a group...I wouldn't generalize. I think ALL KKK members are evil. No generalizing there, as an example. But I think people should be more motivated to atleast acknowledge the issues people face. A lot of, maybe even most straight people might not actually be bigoted against LGBT people, but they wont acknowledge the issue, or act like gay pride is just some sort of self-congratulatory ego boost. Its kind of why we bother "raising awareness" since that really is just about acknowledging an issue, even if you don't donate or directly help out.
People need to be like "Bigotry is wrong, and I don't want to contribute to it". But plenty of people will complain about Gay Pride, scoff at people fighting for equality, and claim voting for Trump isn't supporting racism, or just plain act like nothing is wrong.
Oh, pish.Ushiromiya Battler said:
As a person who is both straight and white, we don't need any fucking parades. We do not need pride. We already have the world revolving around us 90% of the time. I did go into this further back in the thread, but I'll repeat myself anyway.
I have never, even for a moment, felt "blamed" for anything. We are all complicit in the society we are in, and we have to actively work against things that distance and disadvantage people who are "Othered", but it's not about assigning blame.
And even if some gay person who has suffered decides to hate straight people for it, the worst thing that is going to happen is that your feelings might be hurt. With people still getting shot because of their sexuality, I think we straighties can collectively put on our grown-up panties and deal with it.
I understand the need to point out specifics or specific people. But if you are blaming one person (or small group individuals), things quickly become personal. In my country, on the weekend, we voted a racist in two seats of our senate. Now, pointing out how the policies are racist just serves to reinforce her beliefs and encourages her supporters to fight harder. Look at the Brexit. The approval of that idea has increased racial violence by 5 times.Ushiromiya Battler said:
Like most things on the Internet, proving someone that they are wrong, just makes them believe more ferverently
As to white people making minorities' lives more difficult, whose in jail more white or minorities? Much of it is because white people get lighter sentences and cops more likely to check out what minority is doing because monorities are "more" likely to do the wrong thing. Reporting style of crime negatively impacts minorities because, once again, they are "more" likely to do the wrong thing. We, as white people, need to help change that system or we should be blame for making thier lives worse.
As a side note, Mexican immigrants are almost five times LESS likely to commit crimes in the US than naturalised citizens of all races. But they are being seen as part of the problem. That misinformed prejudice has already built a fence along the border and Trump wants to turn that into a wall.
We'll have to agree to disagree, you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about at all.Something Amyss said:
Maybe I'm unclear or not, but this is becoming tiring.
For the record, the only relevance and connection to anything I said had to Phasmal was what Phasmal herself/himself said.
Good night.
To the contrary, I'm trying to get you to see the problem with your position. You are using general terms to talk about how it's idiotic for people to use general terms. And you're responding to someone who was talking in a specific context, but saying it's not related to that context, but rather some alleged people you have talked to in the past.Ushiromiya Battler said:
I suspect these people are as real as that atheist in the airport that every Christian apologist seems to run into.
But again, the fact that you used general terms to address these things indicates that you can intuitively infer the difference between using general terms and speaking to all people in a group. Go with that feeling.
You mean the straight girl, who thus far in threads like this has agreed with my points, the ones you don't seem to think are relevant, but seem to be the exact core of the comment you responded to?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Phasmal probably is as confused about the relevance to her post as I am. It just seems she's the figurehead for the #notallstraightpeople arguments somehow.
Where do you live, quote source of your polls. If you live in Europe than you straight up lie.Something Amyss said:
I've seen a lot of different reactions by individuals in my life but I'm sane and mature enough to not be a bigot and judge everyone by actions of minority.
You have all the right to not care but that doesn't mean you are right in slightest outside of your mind. Nor it makes mr Freeman wrong. What you siad about him is vile but flawed and easily torn down as an argument. He doesn't need to be black to deserve protection from ANYONE trying to bust his skull open. He is a human being. That's enough.Something Amyss said:
His money wasn't gifted or stolen. He earned it. No matter if that makes you all green in the face, that you failed to do so with your life. Get over your envy. Ofcourse he does enjoy things you don't because he worked for them and was successful in it, where many failed.
He overcome and achieved more with his life than most. Let this fact sink it. Perhaps you could show some grown up respect to that he is capable of postulating egalitarianism among people instead of slight like you just did.
Have you tried? I have a gay friend who does act and 'win' in this way over assholes. Hell I learned that from him to get over myself being ridiculed. Because there will always be such individuals that will try. I also have a jewish friend who does the same with distasteful jokes about her heritage, even though she spent her youth 'fighting rightiously' to protect it. I wonder which decades you lived in 'gramps' which you bring up your experience from. In last 4 I lived in, yes this works the best among intelligent people.Something Amyss said:
I can only re-iterate. Being a non-heterosexual is normal = nothing special, be sure to nurse that valuable equality state, instead of pressuring to make it stand out and be 'special'. Perhaps I should also add, pray (literraly or not) that you don't actually live up to times where it isn't true anyomore or that you aren't forced to live in one of current theocratic states (as few members of my family) where this isn't true right now.
How about all of us try something that seems to be rare but really isnt. Lose the stubbornness and hatred and embrace the love and acceptance of each other no matter their sexual orientation, colour of their skin, the gods they worship or dont worship, where they were born and what gender they are. Just have more repect for each other and understand that with over 7 billion people on this planet, each one will be different to the next. Learn from that, respect it and love living life.
Is that too difficult to ask?
Is that too difficult to ask?
That has little to do with Something Amyss's point, nor does Freeman's success make him beyond criticism.Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Of course he deserves protection, the same as everyone else, but in a very large part it's being rich that actually gives it to him.
Excepting that it's not seen as normal, and is seen as being special in a very bad way by large numbers of people throughout the West and beyond.Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Sure, it'd be nice if LGBT activists didn't have to fight to gain and maintain rights, but that's not the world we live in.
I've seen a couple of times in my quick glances at this thread the argument that cisgendered people and especially of the white male variety have not been bullied or oppressed ever.
Its simply not true. The radical SJW movement has made cis white males, regardless of their individual persons, the stooge for everything that is wrong with the world. The SJW movement is bringing reverse racism, sexism and homophobia with it instead of true egalitarianism. The entire vocabulary is borrowed and/or stolen from marxist class warfare ideology causing the opposite of love and understanding since according to class warfare ideology the only way to progress is by utterly annihilating "the other" before the Ideal can be reached. There are millions of straight white men who had an identity thrusted upon them by the same people that are warring against them over it. This would not be important if the SJW movement did not have significant power or impact, but it does. Universities, the media, the internet, the workplace and even the home... in all sections of society they have gained power and are continuing the ideal of "destroying" the enemy identified as the cis white male in most cases.
Examples of the excesses of this process are aplenty and feed the hard core reactionaries in harnessing the identity that the SJW movement created for their own political and social goals.
The SJW movement created its own enemy by doing this. Instead of preaching love, tolerance and understanding for all people they preached class warfare and forced a gigantic portion of "neutrals" into the enemy camp. Now we are stuck with bullshit like hetero pride while instead the SJW movement could have been working to get neutrals to celebrate the gay pride.
bit of a rant but fuck it, im off to work
Its simply not true. The radical SJW movement has made cis white males, regardless of their individual persons, the stooge for everything that is wrong with the world. The SJW movement is bringing reverse racism, sexism and homophobia with it instead of true egalitarianism. The entire vocabulary is borrowed and/or stolen from marxist class warfare ideology causing the opposite of love and understanding since according to class warfare ideology the only way to progress is by utterly annihilating "the other" before the Ideal can be reached. There are millions of straight white men who had an identity thrusted upon them by the same people that are warring against them over it. This would not be important if the SJW movement did not have significant power or impact, but it does. Universities, the media, the internet, the workplace and even the home... in all sections of society they have gained power and are continuing the ideal of "destroying" the enemy identified as the cis white male in most cases.
Examples of the excesses of this process are aplenty and feed the hard core reactionaries in harnessing the identity that the SJW movement created for their own political and social goals.
The SJW movement created its own enemy by doing this. Instead of preaching love, tolerance and understanding for all people they preached class warfare and forced a gigantic portion of "neutrals" into the enemy camp. Now we are stuck with bullshit like hetero pride while instead the SJW movement could have been working to get neutrals to celebrate the gay pride.
bit of a rant but fuck it, im off to work
That is part of the problem, there is no point in whole resentment and envy Amyss' posting oogles with.Thaluikhain said:
I am happy that you agree that it is sufficient to be a human being to have human rights protected. Yet you just repeat baseless assertion about mr Freeman. Someone who grew up in state where till 1950s it still was possible to be lynched just for his skin colour, who seen 8 decades worth of changes in his countries and who - YES - despite his circumstances grew to wealth and power that comes with it... such person is better suited to tell what is needed to end racism, than bunch of MTV grown kids born in 90s or later.
Really which western state segregates and penalizes non-heterosexuals or executes them for immorality. There are some states right now that do that mind you. How many activists died last week fighting to protect these victims?Thaluikhain said:
You use war-like rhetoric because you do not know war nor most of people that call themselves 'activists' even understand what they have right now. How about peaceful law reforms and execution of civil rights already in place.
Have a closer look at how exactly communist, facists and nazi movements were born after the WW1. At start these weren't people youngs imagine nor WW2 chronicles show. They were a bunch of war victims, neglected and betrayed veterans, abused failures maligned in their poverty that felt that they were wronged (yet again), enraged that state didn't protect their rights, that their race/class/nation was opressed and wronged. They demanded retribution and compensation, not equality, because all of the suffering required... more than that. And best part is, they actually were poor and abused minorities (at start), unfortunate to be led by 'great' leaders to do most despicable and horrific things in human history in name of obtaining what they felt their victimhood entitled them to...
I'd take Morgan Freeman's remedy over such course of 'justice' any day of the week.
I have made three assertions about himJamcie Kerbizz said:
That he is not beyond criticism
That he deserves protection
That being rich is largely what gives it to him
Which of those do you disagree with?
Yes, and? That western nations don't execute people for being LGBT isn't setting the bar very far.Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Yes, and? If we are looking for comparisons to Nazism, there is a side of the argument over LGBT rights that does come to mind, but it's not people wanting them to have them.Jamcie Kerbizz said:
Yes, oddly enough most people would prefer not doing anything over Nazism. However, it's whether or not they'd prefer not doing anything to equality for LGBT people that's rather more relevant.Jamcie Kerbizz said:
So what about all those people who disagree, and experienced the same turmoil? Martin Luther King advocated socialism and civil disobedience. Surely then his words carry more weight than Freeman's because he was actually killed for his beliefs. Also, I was totally an 80s kid. I remember (barely) the Wall coming down. I was too young to enjoy grunge and way too young to recognise it was crap.Jamcie Kerbizz said:
If I were an American, I'd be a Reganaut.
So unless we're getting murdered by the state, nothing is wrong with the world? Also, just wait a second ... so in order to be an activist in the domestic sphere, you must go somewhere else? Also, did you just pull out a; "Starving kids in Africa..." argument?Thaluikhain said:
Which rhetoric? I'm not seeing anything remotely 'war-like' in Thaluikhan's words. I was in the army, not remotely seeing anything 'war-like' ... and I've met some overeager nationalists. 'Course this was back when there was a slight possibility of a Konfrontasi v2.0 ... in fact, the most violent people I've met are those trying to defend some barely coherent definition of the status quo.
Which describes every revolutionary struggle. Moreover, if the state is willing to simply give in to pressure from some group, armed revolution isn't often the result anyways. Violent revolution happens because conflict escalation happens. Philippine Revolution against Marcos is an example of peaceful revolution. Little conflict escalation. A few violent engagements, but sporadic, tiny in number and localised.
The InterFET is also an example where two opposing military forces can even settle for a bloodless secession (eventually). Rampant hostilities, then organised de-escalation despite additional potential belligerents. When peaceful options find purchase, they are often embarked upon.
I'm sorry, which LGBTQ activists here have advocated for violent revolution? Like, just one person. Point.
There is one group of straight people who still get hate and abuse and I suspect in the worong place violence. Interracial couples.Phasmal said: