Holy crap, Frozen suuuuuucks.

Scow2

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Casual Shinji said:
Hubblignush said:
Well, videogames can be made either for children, teens or adults, I don't often play those made for children, and I don't read comics either (or rather, superhero comics that is), so there you go.
Yeah, that doesn't matter. The fact that you're playing a 'game' is enough for others to see it as childish, no matter how mature you think it is. Just as there are people who think it's idiotic that a grown person could see something profound in a cartoon made for kids.
Except Disney fare isn't "A cartoon for kids" - they're animated films designed to be something that appeals to an entire family, from infants to great-grandparents and offbeat uncles/aunts.


Anyway... I thought the entire point of Hans was that he was a media-controlling manipulator (Though the reaction to him getting smacked at the end was odd).

And I'm not sure how anyone could say "There's not enough between the sisters" - you mean, aside from the entire movie? Part of the point was that they were separated from each other, but still loved each other.

And as for the 'control' issues... it was pretty clear that Elsa had complete control of her powers as long as she wasn't panicking over them. Her own fear of her powers and hatred of herself is what lead to the problems.
 

Odbarc

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You don't get to be mad at Frozen. It's directed to be enjoyed by children.
Just... Let it go.
 

Fappy

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Why do so many people get their jimmies rustled when discussing this movie?! It was a pretty decent kids movie. The film lacked the necessary depth to have any real, prolonged artistic discussions, and it baffles me that so many people are still getting caught up in this futile debate. You thought the movie was overrated? Great!

It's a kid's movie... who cares?
 

Coruptin

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to all the guys going, "magic doesn't need to be explained!"
fantasy doesn't need to follow the rules of reality but it still needs to follow some kind of rule. it still needs to be internally consistent; otherwise, you end up dissatisfied and full of questions just like op.

hopefully I don't need to start to explain why, "it's for kids/girls," is a destructive and backwards non-argument.
 

Pyrian

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Coruptin said:
to all the guys going, "magic doesn't need to be explained!"
fantasy doesn't need to follow the rules of reality but it still needs to follow some kind of rule.
And yet people are complaining about Frozen, whose rules are merely somewhat arbitrary, versus Tangled, whose explicit rules are deliberately broken for no given reason.
 

Fox12

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klaynexas3 said:
Fox12 said:
The villain is almost bipolar in Mononoke, she doesn't just want to protect her own, she wants to take what is others as well. Perhaps I'm being unfair in judging that film, and should give it another watch, but when it was anyone not within her town, she seemed callous and even just straight vindictive towards them. I'd say an apt comparison would be Hitler, she doesn't care about other forms of life, but will eagerly help out that of her own, and then the drastic quick shift in the end comes almost from nowhere. That's part of the problem, the ending is just so nice and neat and wrapped up in a bow despite all the problems and tensions.
I would respectfully disagree. Lady Eboshi is actually quite accepting of outsiders. She takes in the protagonist without question, and is actually very kind to him, even when others don't trust him. She shows him around, and explains their situation. She also takes in the lowest classes of society, and while she expects everyone to carry their weight, she finds work that they are capable of doing. The lepers, for instance, help make guns, since they can't perform physical labor. Most societies would exile them from their village. She is only violent against two groups, the government and the forest creatures. The people you see her fighting are emperial soldiers who want to confiscate the mines, and exploit the people for slave labor. Their the ones attacking her, so she's essentially defending civilians against an army. If you pay attention, you see the army killing civilians in other villages. She's trying to stop that from happening. She is willing to accept refugees, however.

The other group she fights are the forest spirits. Here is where moral ambiguity comes in. She doesn't really hate the spirits. In fact, she doesn't really care about them. However, she is a humanist, and prioritizes the human race over the gods they used to worship. In many ways she represents the ability of human ingenuity to overcome any obstacle, as she essentially wars with both the government and the gods themselves, the two institutions that have historically controlled the people. However, in order to do this she is willing to kill the forest spirits, and she is willing to destroy the forest in order to carve out a place for her people. The spirits are witnessing deforestation everywhere, and they can't stop it, so in a sense they are victims. However, they are also brutal and violent, and often eat one another. They are also used to having the humans beneath them, before technology turned the tables.

Everyone is simply looking after their own interests, there aren't any villains, except for the emperor, who we never see. As for the ending, it isn't completely clean, but it works. Essentially it ends in a truce. Ashitaka becomes a leader of the villagers, while San becomes a leader of the forest spirits. They become lovers, and through their love a tentative peace is established between the two factions. Because ashitaka took charge during the crisis and saved the village, and because he saved many of the villagers, he has the respect needed to influence their decisions, and likely becomes the primary leader later on, after Lady Eboshi passes away. Lady Eboshi has seen her plans fail, in trying to broker a truce with the emperor, and is likely open to listening to Ashitaka's council, since he's now as popular in the village as she is. The ending is pretty realistic in my opinion, and it also reinforces the themes of the story. Peace is not easy to achieve, but it is possible. The struggles aren't over, but the crisis is over. I would argue the film was quite well thought out, and I don't think the things you mentioned were necessarily plot holes.
 
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sky14kemea said:
I'm just biding my time until Tangled becomes popular again. Viva la Tangled!
oh my gawd, first post nailed it.

/thread



OT: as many have mentioned, frozen was GREAT for its target audience, and as a male in his 20's who usually doesn't like too much musical crap, frozen wasn't half bad. too much singing bits for my taste, but it was still good.
 

Alatar The Red

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Pluvia said:
Actual flaws are fine to criticise. Plot holes and such.

Critiques which boil down to opinions on plot points or characters are just opinions. If you don't like something, take a look at whether or not you're the target audience.

I mean he dedicated four large paragraphs complaining about not liking characters or the music. That's not a flaw, that's just an opinion. An opinion that can be addressed with "You're not the target audience".
I look forward to you making the same argument the next time some reviewer goes on a morals rant about video game characters and how they only pander to X while ignoring Y.

"You're not the target audience" can be valid in the sense that a movie/game might actually be meant for demographic X, however using that to deflect criticism makes no sense at all.
 

Schadrach

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Eclipse Dragon said:
This is when films or shows aimed at children incorporate themes and jokes only adults will understand. Over the Garden Wall is absolutely filled with this.
That is such a massive understatement that it might just generate meaningful gravity.

It's not like it's full of references to the Divine Comedy or anything (seriously Beatrice? That's pretty upfront. Do you know what happens to suicides in the Inferno? They're turned into trees. Heck, you can map the progression of places they go to the circles of Hell). It's also not like the big bad is a metaphor for depression (and every bit of imagery they could come up with to associate him with the devil without coming out and saying it). There are sooo many things you can say about this series.

The frog is awesome though, and a cue as to what was actually going on, because they both know what Greg named it while in the Unknown after they leave, but the others don't which means they didn't talk about it afterward.

Another nice touch is that there are a series of flashes at the beginning of the series that are all stuff that has happened before they start walking through the forest, including one that shows what happened during the flashback in episode 9, but it's hard to realize it in context.

Dancing in a swirl,
Of golden memories,
The loveliest lies of all,
The loveliest lies of all.
Those four lines, from the end of the main theme "Into the Unknown". They cut the song short at the beginning of the series and leave them off, only playing the full thing at the very end.
 

Astoria

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'It's a Disney movie' can answer just about all those questions. Take a good look at most Disney movies and they have similar faults but I go agree with you that Frozen is vastly overrated. It took me three times to watch it all the way through because of the music numbers. Let it Go was good but the others were meh. It's not great but it's not terrible.
 

Eclipse Dragon

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Schadrach said:
Schadrach said:
It's not like it's full of references to the Divine Comedy or anything (seriously Beatrice? That's pretty upfront. Do you know what happens to suicides in the Inferno? They're turned into trees. Heck, you can map the progression of places they go to the circles of Hell). It's also not like the big bad is a metaphor for depression (and every bit of imagery they could come up with to associate him with the devil without coming out and saying it). There are sooo many things you can say about this series.
I get all the Divine Comedy references although I'm not sure if the beast is really meant to be the devil. If the beast is supposed to be the devil, why would it only be interested in children? The turtles also don't really have an explanation, though we know they're some kind of corrupting force and probably connected to the beast in some way.

I read an interesting theory about the origin of the beast [http://oatmealaddiction.tumblr.com/post/104871646528/over-the-garden-wall-analysis-the-beast]

Also why was Auntie Whispers able to eat the turtles without suffering the same ill effects as the dog in episode 1?
 

KazeAizen

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Pluvia said:
5. It's a film for small children, aimed at little girls. Remember the target audience of a film before you write a book about how you didn't like it next time.
This really irks me to my core. You aren't the only one who said something like this in this thread. This is just not true at all. By that logic most of the Disney canon is aimed at little girls and small children. Most if not all of the actual Disney canon is not aimed at kids. They are aimed at families. How to Train your Dragon, The Lego Movie, The Lion King, Kung Fu Panda, Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, etc....every single one of those are not aimed at small children. They are aimed and written for families. People of all ages can enjoy them and not feel stupid or degraded.

The amount of people that don't seem to understand the concept that a family film is different than a kid's film is very worrisome in this day and age. The target audience of Frozen was everyone but if it had a more specific audience I'd be willing to bet it was people like me. 90s kids that grew up during their Renaissance which produced the musical style films Frozen was trying, and succeeded, to emulate.
 

chadachada123

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I can't believe that over this entire thing, only a single person has gotten OP's most important mark correctly addressed.

Kristoff and Anna did not fall in love or get engaged on day one. That's pretty damn clear. They meet at start of journey, get closer throughout the film, **don't** fall madly in love, and are only seen further in their relationship at an unspecified time in the future. While it's obvious that they WILL fall in love, I don't see how anyone could think that Disney made such a giant plothole/oversight/whatever. And I dislike Disney and most of its works.

KazeAizen said:
Pluvia said:
5. It's a film for small children, aimed at little girls. Remember the target audience of a film before you write a book about how you didn't like it next time.
This really irks me to my core. You aren't the only one who said something like this in this thread. This is just not true at all. By that logic most of the Disney canon is aimed at little girls and small children. Most if not all of the actual Disney canon is not aimed at kids. They are aimed at families. How to Train your Dragon, The Lego Movie, The Lion King, Kung Fu Panda, Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, etc....every single one of those are not aimed at small children. They are aimed and written for families. People of all ages can enjoy them and not feel stupid or degraded.

The amount of people that don't seem to understand the concept that a family film is different than a kid's film is very worrisome in this day and age. The target audience of Frozen was everyone but if it had a more specific audience I'd be willing to bet it was people like me. 90s kids that grew up during their Renaissance which produced the musical style films Frozen was trying, and succeeded, to emulate.
I hope I'm not reading the sentence wrong, but How to Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda and The Lego Movie are not Disney. The point remains valid either way, though.
 

KazeAizen

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chadachada123 said:
I hope I'm not reading the sentence wrong, but How to Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda and The Lego Movie are not Disney. The point remains valid either way, though.
You weren't and I'm well aware of that. The point does not stand. If it was marketed towards little girls it would not have literally made $1 billion at the box office. Frozen is a family film like all the rest of those. Not a kids film. Not a little girl's film. Its a family film which is totally different than either of those. His point is not valid and anyone that tries to make that point about Frozen is wrong. Plain and simple.
 

chadachada123

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KazeAizen said:
chadachada123 said:
I hope I'm not reading the sentence wrong, but How to Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda and The Lego Movie are not Disney. The point remains valid either way, though.
You weren't and I'm well aware of that. The point does not stand. If it was marketed towards little girls it would not have literally made $1 billion at the box office. Frozen is a family film like all the rest of those. Not a kids film. Not a little girl's film. Its a family film which is totally different than either of those. His point is not valid and anyone that tries to make that point about Frozen is wrong. Plain and simple.
It seems that you're the one misreading sentences, hah. I meant that YOUR point remains valid; that Frozen is a family movie like the rest

captcha, and I'm not even joking: 'my bad'
 

Aaron Sylvester

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Frozen didn't "suck" and whoever thinks it did need to watch movies that actually DO suck.

What Frozen is...is average. Mediocre. Run of the mill. Has it's fun moments and low points. Fine for the kids and family. Passes the time.

There seems to be a love/hate thing with Frozen with no middle ground, and I mostly blame the twats who proclaimed this movie from their fucking rooftops as the best thing in the world. Especially when they started mixing feminism bullshit into into their reasoning, that's one way to REALLY get a negative reaction and make people walk away from you (or break into an argument).
 

KazeAizen

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chadachada123 said:
KazeAizen said:
chadachada123 said:
I hope I'm not reading the sentence wrong, but How to Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda and The Lego Movie are not Disney. The point remains valid either way, though.
You weren't and I'm well aware of that. The point does not stand. If it was marketed towards little girls it would not have literally made $1 billion at the box office. Frozen is a family film like all the rest of those. Not a kids film. Not a little girl's film. Its a family film which is totally different than either of those. His point is not valid and anyone that tries to make that point about Frozen is wrong. Plain and simple.
It seems that you're the one misreading sentences, hah. I meant that YOUR point remains valid; that Frozen is a family movie like the rest

captcha, and I'm not even joking: 'my bad'
lol. Sorry man. Also that is very creepy.
 

sumanoskae

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Illogical Magic
It's magic; suspend your disbelief. If magic worked in a logical, predictable manner, what would be the point of it? If magic is just tantamount to advanced technology, a tool to expand narrative possibility, there's nothing unique about it. Supernatural elements in stories are a trade off, and there's no point in including them unless your getting something in return for the extra confidence your asking from your audience. Remember when Lucas tried to explain the Force? Remember how much that pissed people off? The lack of rational explanation, the ethereal nature of magic, is the source of it's appeal. It should trigger that primeval part of the human mind that doesn't insist that things make rational sense. The same part that fears the bump in the night that you try to explain away but are somehow unable to; the same part that wonders what mysteries are held by the endless, unexplored reaches of the universe. Trying to frame magic in terms of logic and science deprives it of it's... well... MAGIC.

Professor Rock Troll's School for Gifted Ice Gods
Yeah, this decision by Elsa and Anna's parents doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I don't think it's the gaping plot hole it's typically framed as. I just assumed that the King and Queen were paranoid about their daughter's abilities and made an emotionally fueled, irrational decision. Plus, they died, so it's possible that no one else in the nobility even knew the trolls existed. As for Elsa herself, again, she's frightened of her own power, and the whole point of the story is her learning that she doesn't need to be.

BOOM, HEADSHOT!
I refer you to my previous comments. I have a feeling that your submitted essay on the thoroughly documented scientific effects of Ice Magic would not go over well with experts.

What is Love!? Baby, don't hurt me...
There's really nothing to be said of your opinion on the themes of the film. Personally, I don't take issue with love as a central idea in story telling, but I do take issue with how it's often overblown. Love is a powerful enough emotion and source of inspiration by itself, it doesn't need supernatural powers backing it up. What matters is that Elsa loves her sister, the idea of love also being an arbitrary curative for destructive magic is unnecessary, and diverts focus from the power love already has in the real world. Since love also needs to be the reason that Anna is saved, I understand their decision, but I'm not convinced a more grounded approach could not have been concocted. As for Elsa's confinement, this is a central plot point and theme. The idea isn't just that Elsa needs to feel love for Anna, she also has to express it so that the two of them can actually enjoy and benefit from that connection.

Stranger Danger
I cannot fathom what your issue is with Hans. None of the actions you presented as examples of his heroic nature are proof of it. I want to draw attention to a basic fact that is often ignored in movies; Lying is not a difficult thing to do. People lie all the time, in fact. Were you expecting Hans to try and connect with Anna, and then be unable to hold in his raging murderous instincts, causing him to explode in a psychotic frenzy and try to cut her in half? I think learning to play a part would be a pretty major aspect of growing up as a power hungry aristocrat, no?

Why does Hans act like he loves Anna? Because he wants to marry her and be king; can't do that if she refuses.

Why does Hans risk his life to saver Anna? Because he wants to marry her and be king; can't do that if she's DEAD.

Why does Hans not murder Anna's sister? Because she probably won't marry him if he murders her sister.

Why does Hans act kindly towards the populace of the kingdom he wants to run? Because he wants the residents of this foreign land he plans to covertly take over to like him, so that nobody suspect that he doesn't give a shit about them and revolt, and also because the rulers of this land will probably not want him to join their family if he treats their people like shit.

Why does Hans betray Anna and leave her to die? Because all he cares about is ruling her kingdom, and she's no use to him anymore. Better to skip the Princess and move straight for the Queen.

Why does Hans not cackle under his breath, rant about his evil plan, and generally act like a complete psychopath? Because most psychopaths don't want people to KNOW that they're psychopaths, so they don't act like psychopaths (Example: Real life serial killers).

Why does Hans act all heroic, and kind, and shit like that? Because he wants people to think he's heroic, and kind, and shit like that, as opposed to a ruthless killer (Example: Real life serial killers).

This is something I appreciate about the film; people don't fall in love over night, people lie, and being careless with your desires and feelings is just as dangerous as never expressing them. As for why Hans motivation is not just spelled out in the first five minutes, that's because having the audience in on the plot twist would undermine it's effects. We're supposed to understand why Anna could be taken in by this guy; what better way to do that than to have the audience get taken for the exact same ride?

Let it Show, Let it Show! Can't Explain the Plot Any More!
How do we know that Hans is actually a ruthless tyrant? Well, that becomes apparent when he attempts to murder Anna in cold blood.

The idea of "Show don't tell", is that you should demonstrate important aspects of your story instead of coldly informing your audience of them, because they won't emotionally internalize how important a piece of information is if it's delivered via lifeless exposition. "Show don't tell" doesn't mean you can't surprise your audience, or that you have to spell everything out for them, or that you can't leave them in the dark about certain things for dramatic effect.

How Kirstof and Anna Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Reindeer
Sorry you missed the memo, but that montage was only the span of a few hours at the most. The sun never rises, and when they go to see Elsa about getting engaged, the ball is still in full swing. Not much else to say there.

Something I would like to point out; I don't remember Kirstof and Anna ever actually saying they were in love. I remember Olof and the trolls pushing them into it, presumably because they were tired of Kirstof living at home and were concerned about his relationship with his increasingly perverse sexual fantasies. I could be wrong, but I think the operative idea here is that Anna and Kirstof aren't rushing into a commitment or projecting their fantasies onto each other. I can totally buy them developing attraction to each other having lived through a perilous situation together, and the film doesn't end with them getting hitched or anything, they just like each other.

It's time to revisit show don't tell. While it's true that Kirstof and Anna don't literally spend that much more time together than Hans and Anna, we the audience see a lot more of the prior relationship. The film subverts "Love at first sight" not by giving us a relationship that is literally different, but by allowing the audience to connect with a relationship over time instead of instantly. We get to know Kristof over the course of the whole movie, where as Hans and Anna's relationship is communicated in a matter of minutes over a song.

The key term here is metaphor. Hans and Kirstof's time spent with Anna are literally different; Hans and Anna have a bit less time, Hans is being dishonest, Anna is projecting a preconceived fantasy onto the relationship, and the two of them commit to a marriage; Anna and Kirstof have about three times as much time to get to know each other, the two of them are always up front about who they are, they start out as friends and don't try to define the relationship before it has a chance to develop, and they ultimately just express how they feel without committing to anything long term (Kirstof has to take some time to get therapy; his lack of human contact and sexual fascination with reindeer took him to a dark place...).

But more importantly, the two relationships are metaphorically different. The way the film presents the relationship with Hans to the audience is steeped in theatrics and unrealistic fantasy; the whole things is a song full of extraordinary imagery. While Kristof does get a song as well, his relationship with Anna is a great deal more grounded. They just talk, hang out, and go through some shit together.

One is a fantasy of a perfect love that doesn't exist, where the people involved are secondary to the idea of love itself. The other is a realistic relationship between two flawed people, where the trappings and glamour of romance are of less importance than the connection between the participants.

I'm not here to argue that this is some great love story; I think it's perfectly decent, but it didn't make my heart sing. It is, however, entirely appropriate for the overarching themes of the film.

A 300 page long, excruciatingly detailed essay on why Frozen's songs are the pinnacle of human achievement, followed by my book "Let It Go: Our National Anthem in All but Name"
Just kidding. I could take or leave most of the songs. In the interest of full disclosure: My favorite is Let it Go; catchy, decent lyrics, fits the story. My least favorite is Little Bit of Love; I neither understood most of the lyrics, nor do I care to. Doesn't fit the story quite so well.

Anna as a Character
Not a whole lot to say on that front. I did get a good chuckle out of the image of a giddy Disney cartoon plummeting to her death mid song. I'll just say that I don't have a problem with her and leave it at that.

Masterpiece?
To answer your last question; no I don't think Frozen is excellent. I have overall net positive feelings about the film, but I'm not head over heels for it like some people are. It's a good film that differs from the norm in some appreciable ways, but it's not gonna light my world on fire.
 

Dark Knifer

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I was expecting pretty ordinary disney with this movie but this movie just made me angry. Seriously, the only other movie that has made me so annoyed was the twilight franchise.

Mainly because of elsa. Elsa was a villan in the original movie for a reason. Let it go is a song about her nihilism and complete selfishness and utter contempt for her sister and her sister is so naive to just forgive her for decades of neglect then flat out abuse when she strikes her. Then they all forgive each other through the power of love. Yeah no Elsa should be condemn to imprisonment.