Homosexuality in ME3

[Helmholtz Watson]

Maybe Shepard confirmed it off screen.

Sure, or by your logic, maybe off screen Shepard commented on how he found men kissing to be gross, but we won't know what he did offscreen will we? Because it's all speculation.

Furthermore, it's the 22nd century! Who knows if the lines of gay/straight even exist. I mean, it's already starting to blur now.

Really? Any proof that the lines are blurring now?

The number of bisexual people is increasing, even if you don't include the staggering amount of drunken kisses and one time deals. And if you can get over the fact that Shepard's going to have sex with an alien with god knows what sort of orifices I'm sure Shepard can get over a penis.

Again, burden of proof to support these claims.

 

[HHammond]

so you don't think they have pandered to their audience in the past?

Did I say they hadn't? No! I was saying that I think THIS isn't pandering

Because people are entitled to express their opinions, like how you and I are doing now.

Am I denying this?

This is a video game, not a gender studies/philosophy class, so I rather not have video games talk to me about LGBT/sexuality topics. ME is a sci-fi action game, so I'd perfure them to focus on sci-fi and action. I don't need ME telling me about LGBT/sexuality topics anymore than I need ME telling me what my religion should be. There is a time and a place, and (imo) ME is neither of those when it comes to the subject of sexuality. Perhaps a game like Heavy Rain can cover such a topic.

So they're allowed to explore things like morality and straight relationships but not homosexuality? I think ME is the perfect place to explore this. Video games offer an opportunity like no other to explore ourselves and Mass Effect has done this in the past, why can't it do it again but with a different topic? Why should they be able to show you about straight relationships but not gay relationships?

...no. Having a krogan or a geth on screen would not be pandering.

Oh, but what about all those people who are turned on by the idea of robots? And I'm sure there are a few people who are into Krogans (probably)? And you still haven't answered my question: when does something becoming "pandering"?

You can ignore it all you want, it doesn't mean that I don't feel that way when I see men(not including a father and son) kiss.

Okay, if you feel this way then that's fine but there are other, much less offensive ways to voice this. Saying "the idea of 2 men kissing isn't attractive to me" or something similar isn't as offensive and downright rude as calling it "repulsive".

 

[Beliyal]

In that case Volf99's comment was actually correct. It just happens that Shepard hasn't been gay to pander to homophobes. Although the key part of that is "hasn't been". Makes the whole thing kind of ironic really, because they don't know how often media changes things to fit what homophobes want.

Oh, right, didn't look at it from that angle. So yeah, pandering. In that case, I'm happy that they are now pandering to people who want to enjoy in the game as they wish.

 

[HHammond]

Sure, or by your logic, maybe off screen Shepard commented on how he found men kissing to be gross, but we won't know what he did offscreen will we? Because it's all speculation.

EXACTLY! My Shepard might have admitted to being gay, but your Shepard might say differently! The whole point of Shepard is that he's whatever YOU, the player, want him to be.

Really? Any proof that the lines are blurring now?

Proof? Not exactly, but from looking at society in general now compared to say 5 or 10 years ago there is an undeniable rise in homosexuality. The amount of teenage homosexuals is much larger now than 10 years ago.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

EXACTLY! My Shepard might have admitted to being gay, but your Shepard might say differently! The whole point of Shepard is that he's whatever YOU, the player, want him to be.

..... -_- . I'm not going to argue over speculation, the point is that its speculation and is nothing more than wild guesses. It doesn't prove anything.

Proof? Not exactly, but from looking at society in general now compared to say 5 or 10 years ago there is an undeniable rise in homosexuality. The amount of teenage homosexuals is much larger now than 10 years ago.

So then what your typing is bs until you can provide proof.

 

[Monkeyman O'Brien]

Well considering how poorly they handled relationships in ME2 and considering how obnoxious Bioware gets over being praised over having homosexual issues, I fully expect it to be obnoxious and in your face. They are gonna go the Anders route and pretty much try to force you to take a dick up the ass and if you don't then no doubt you will lose loyalty.

They seemed very excited to bring up homosexual issues in ME3 but Biowares writing has dropped so yeah. Its gonna be ham handed, obnoxious, offensive to everyone involved and you just know they won't even give you the option of disagreeing with it.

 

[HHammond]

..... -_- . I'm not going to argue over speculation, the point is that its speculation and is nothing more than wild guesses. It doesn't prove anything.

Okay, so if we're both just speculating why can't Shepard be gay? Or bisexual at least? Just because he hasn't confirmed it thus far (despite the fact he could have in ME1) doesn't mean he isn't. He could have been a celibate hero up until now, remaining alone until the right man came into this life.

So then what your typing is bs until you can provide proof.

Maybe it's not concrete, but it's undeniably there. And you've ignored many of the questions I've asked. I think your typing is BS considering you can't even answer a simple question. What is your definition of pandering?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Am I denying this?

You asked a question and I answered it.

So they're allowed to explore things like morality and straight relationships but not homosexuality? I think ME is the perfect place to explore this. Video games offer an opportunity like no other to explore ourselves and Mass Effect has done this in the past, why can't it do it again but with a different topic? Why should they be able to show you about straight relationships but not gay relationships?

Because this is an action game, I don't need ME telling me about sexuality when I payed $60 to shoot aliens/robots. I'm not saying that no game can cover this subject, I just don't need an action sci-fi game focusing on this. Like I said before, a game like Heavy Rain would be great for exploring this kind of topic. I'm ignorant on these games but don't some Japanese games already cover these kinds of subjects?

Oh, but what about all those people who are turned on by the idea of robots? And I'm sure there are a few people who are into Krogans (probably)? And you still haven't answered my question: when does something becoming "pandering"?

...is that a serious comment? Robots and krogan where it the first two games, and I'm not repulsed by people following rule #34 because I don't have to deal with it.

Okay, if you feel this way then that's fine but there are other, much less offensive ways to voice this. Saying "the idea of 2 men kissing isn't attractive to me" or something similar isn't as offensive and downright rude as calling it "repulsive".

lol, your arguing over synonyms for my feelings? Also, I had to use this for a while, but....

Spoiler: this is for you

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

However, if a company chooses to pander, then it shouldn't be a surprise if people get pissed about it(looking at you Fox News) or if people are repulsed by it(Shepard isn't gay). I think one of the bigger criticisms is about who is writing the material, which currently isn't going over well [http://kotaku.com/5886674/bioware-writer-describes-her-gaming-tastes-angry-gamers-call-her-a-cancer] for Bioware fans.

Shepard isn't gay according to... your homophobia? It's pathetic to be repulsed by an option you don't need to pick. It's good they stopped caring about the opinions of bigots. If people are repulsed by someone else's Shepard being gay to the degree they find it worth complaining about they have issues they should work out first.

Btw, educate yourself. Hepler is not writing the material. Post was faked. Fake ignorant outrage can die now.

I don't have a fear of homosexuals, I'm not a homosexual in denial/afraid that I might be homosexual, so I'm not a homophobic person.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

..... -_- . I'm not going to argue over speculation, the point is that its speculation and is nothing more than wild guesses. It doesn't prove anything.

Okay, so if we're both just speculating why can't Shepard be gay? Or bisexual at least? Just because he hasn't confirmed it thus far (despite the fact he could have in ME1) doesn't mean he isn't. He could have been a celibate hero up until now, remaining alone until the right man came into this life.

So then what your typing is bs until you can provide proof.

Maybe it's not concrete, but it's undeniably there. And you've ignored many of the questions I've asked. I think your typing is BS considering you can't even answer a simple question. What is your definition of pandering?

I really hope the base of your argument isn't based on what he might be doing off screen. It's a bs argument.

Also, until you have evidence(about the human population and sexuality), it's all just bs. Come back when you have the proper sources to back up such claims.

Here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandering_%28politics%29] is a rough idea of what I'm referring to. It's not limited to this definition, but it is a rough idea.

 

[Vuljatar]

I don't mind it, I'm just glad they aren't suddenly making established characters gay.

They aren't, right? The gay romance options are new characters only, right? I haven't really been paying much attention to it but I'd be pretty pissed if they suddenly decided that "Garrus has been gay all along and it just never came up until now!".

 

[HHammond]

Snipping the rudeness

No, it wasn't a serious comment about the krogans and geth. It was sarcasm. My point was that by what seems to be your definition of pandering ANYTHING can constitute it.

If you want an action game, then play the action story. If you don't want to see same sex romance, then don't romance a same sex partner. If you think for a second that your bigoted and rude should impact any other demographic then you are very ignorant indeed. This will not effect you in the slightest. You can ignore it to your homophobic, bigoted heart's desire. And just to clear it up before you jump in and say "so anyone who doesn't do same sex is homophobic" not that is not what I'm saying, most people who ignore it probably aren't but the way you are vocalising your opinion does point to you being so.

And I'm not saying use synonyms to soften your hateful words. I was trying to show you that being ignorant and offensive is not going to help you and there are alternatives that won't display your ignorance when you think it's acceptable to use terms like you have used.

 

[Zen Toombs]

It's just a personal gripe.

If people are open to the idea of something that was clearly introduced for its own sake, all the power to them.

I choose to look at it as superfluous, that's all.

And so long as you think that a [homo]romance no more superfluous than a [hetero]romance, then you have no arguments from me.

It is stupid that there is homosexuality, because if one of the characters was gay then you would know by now (you go through a lot with them). I will rage if I try to talk with Garrus then after one or two missions, I hear him say something like "Shepard I have developed a strong need, to insert my equivalent of a penis up your rectum, thrust vigorously until I ejaculate my equivalent of cum into your intestines." Garrus is not gay he would have told me. Period.
I have no problem with being Gay just not this late in the series.

Because that's totally how gay people act about sex. Fun fact - not all gay people are into anal sex. Also, there's a number of straight people who are all sorts of into it.
Also, for two, people don't always talk to people about what they find sexually attractive. You've been through a lot with Garrus, and really gotten to know him, but you only find out about his mom's illness if you creep on him by reading his Shadow Broker Dossier. Besides, it took two whole games for him to mention that he had sex with a girl, and based upon how he said it, he had no interest in hiding it. Wether he's attracted to male Turians or non-Turians of either gender[footnote]Ignoring [fem]Shep[/footnote] is not confirmed, because he has said nothing on the subject either way.
Anyway, there are few characters in the Mass Effect universe with a confirmed sexuality, those being Jack and Miranda. Jack mentions that she tried girls and didn't like them, and Miranda... IIRC she either says something about it, or her shadow broker file says something about it.

I've gotten really close to many people, but what I do and want to do in the bedroom is something that should be kept to myself and the person I'm involved with.

This time it is just a wider variety of cast members who you can be gay with.

Don't the NPCs turn you away sometimes? I kinda tried to go for Jack in ME2 with femshep, but Jack turned her down because she says she's not into girls.

Strange, I always thought she had more testosterone in her than myself.

Fyi, how dominant your personality/how aggressive you are is irrelevant to which sex you are sexually attracted to. If she likes girls, she likes girls. If she likes boys, she likes boys. If she likes both, she likes both. A person could have a dominant or submissive or pacifistic or aggressive personality with any of those options.


This wall of text brought to you be Zen Toombs. ZT out.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

So they're allowed to explore things like morality and straight relationships but not homosexuality? I think ME is the perfect place to explore this. Video games offer an opportunity like no other to explore ourselves and Mass Effect has done this in the past, why can't it do it again but with a different topic? Why should they be able to show you about straight relationships but not gay relationships?

Because this is an action game, I don't need ME telling me about sexuality when I payed $60 to shoot aliens/robots. I'm not saying that no game can cover this subject, I just don't need an action sci-fi game focusing on this. Like I said before, a game like Heavy Rain would be great for exploring this kind of topic. I'm ignorant on these games but don't some Japanese games already cover these kinds of subjects?

Nice how you failed to answer the first part. You know, about straight relationships being explored. Oh wait, you're for treating gay people as different, is that it? Or are you against the straight ones too? Pretty sure this is just a case of you having a bias against homosexuals, but not heterosexuals so you're fine with one but not the other.

I never expressed a preference for any kind of romantic relationships in ME.

 

[warrcry13]

I have only one problem with it. When a character who has been written as straight suddenly decides he is gonna hit on my maleshep. It's going to ruin it for me. I wouldn't care if theyw ere written as gay or bi from the beginning. As soon as Garrus hits on my maleshep I'm gonna be angry. Or hell as soon as Ashley hit on my femshep I'll be pissed.

Only because it isn't a logical step in character progression. I had the same problem with Anders in DA2.

 

[HHammond]

snip

Nor have you implied they are just as "bad" as homosexual romances.

And your argument that using "off screen stuff is BS" is bull shit itself. Some people like to add layers to their character. Loads of people like to make detailed backstories for their characters in RPGs and Shepard is no exception. Even if you did say it was BS, then Shepard still can be gay. How do you know my Shepard isn't gay if he has never had a relationship with a women and even told Liara in Mass Effect 1 that he was "interested in men"? That last bit, that quote from his mouth, confirms that it is highly possible for Shepard to be potentially gay. Furthermore, you have no evidence from the game that says Shepard isn't at least bisexual. Sure, he's had relationships with women but he could just as easily be bisexual but never met a guy he was into. Where's your proof he isn't bisexual?

 

[Bradeck]

I am not gay, but I seriously hope that the gay love scene in ME3 is the longest, most erotic, filthy, sweaty, moaner of a sex scene ever put in pixels. Like Alpa Chino says in Tropic Thunder, "I love da pussy!" but I really hope the gayness permeates the entire game, and thus works it's way into everything. Gays and homosexuals need to be normalized, and not feared.

Thus, I look forward to seeing Gordon Freeman having a freaky three way with Dog and Dr. Kliner. I want Jim Raynor to turn the bridge of his cruiser into a Santorum factory. I want Dan Savage to take over as the voice and body double for Batman in the next Arkham game. If we keep ignoring it and fearing it, it will never be accepted.

Again, I'm not gay, but I love the fact that they are FINALLY getting some level of acceptance in games other then villains or joke characters.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

No, it wasn't a serious comment about the krogans and geth. It was sarcasm. My point was that by what seems to be your definition of pandering ANYTHING can constitute it.

If you want an action game, then play the action story. If you don't want to see same sex romance, then don't romance a same sex partner. If you think for a second that your bigoted and rude should impact any other demographic then you are very ignorant indeed.

Ah, so we have finally resorted to name calling the other side, have we? Well name calling/personal attacks are uncalled for. You can disagree with what I have typed without resorting to calling me names/insulting me personally because I don't agree with you.

Obviously what I typed doesn't have any affect on the ME series, I never claimed it did. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, I was just making a observation. It was you that made this into a debate, not me.

This will not effect you in the slightest. You can ignore it to your homophobic, bigoted heart's desire.

Again with using personal insults to attack me, rather than engaging in debate. smh

And just to clear it up before you jump in and say "so anyone who doesn't do same sex is homophobic" not that is not what I'm saying, most people who ignore it probably aren't but the way you are vocalising your opinion does point to you being so.

No, I know what homophobia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-dystonic_sexual_orientation] is so I'm not to worried about your misuse of the word to make personal attacks against me because I don't agree with you.

lol, I'm not a homophobic person if I don't express my opinion, but if I do then I'm homophobic? What? So by that logic, if the KKK hates Black people because their
African-American but doesn't express their opinions, are they not racist? Logic fail.

Also as I stated before, I made a passing comment which most people ignored. It was you that felt like "vocalizing" your opinion to me, not the other way around.

And I'm not saying use synonyms to soften your hateful words. I was trying to show you that being ignorant and offensive is not going to help you and there are alternatives that won't display your ignorance when you think it's acceptable to use terms like you have used.

Hateful words? I don't hate homosexuals, I'm just not attracted to the idea of men kissing(or doing much more).

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

snip

Nor have you implied they are just as "bad" as homosexual romances.

And your argument that using "off screen stuff is BS" is bull shit itself. Some people like to add layers to their character. Loads of people like to make detailed backstories for their characters in RPGs and Shepard is no exception. Even if you did say it was BS, then Shepard still can be gay. How do you know my Shepard isn't gay if he has never had a relationship with a women and even told Liara in Mass Effect 1 that he was "interested in men"? That last bit, that quote from his mouth, confirms that it is highly possible for Shepard to be potentially gay. Furthermore, you have no evidence from the game that says Shepard isn't at least bisexual. Sure, he's had relationships with women but he could just as easily be bisexual but never met a guy he was into. Where's your proof he isn't bisexual?

The burden of proof is not on me to prove a negative.

 

[Mark Hardigan]

Given that bioware romances are optional, I find all the arguments against there being homosexuality in ME3 to be nothing less than juvenile homophobia.