Honesty is the Best Poly-cy (Except When It Isn?t)

[klausaidon]

Look at ladies not just as potential sex partners - that is, as a means to an end - but as worthy of friendship for their own sake.

Being friends with a woman is like being friends with a really lame guy. He whines about his fuckbuddies all the time, he doesn't like the movies you like because they have tits and blood in them, he won't help you fix your car because it will get his hands greasy and he won't help you move furniture because he is too wimpy.

There is no advantage to having women as friends but tons of disadvantage. However there are several advantages to faking a friendship. A. you might get lucky if she gets desperate or feeling bad or gets drunk enough to overlook your flaws, and B. She is likely to have female friends into whose pants you could potentially get.

The correct course of action is to pretend to care as long as it doesn't require you to make an effort.

But finding love requires putting yourself on the line a little.

Translation from woman language to English: Our culture requires men to do 100% of the work, accept 100% of the social/rejection risk, and commit 100% of the action responsibility. Accept that in order to "play the game" you need to stick your neck out for women to chop off. Because if you are asking advice you probably aren't attractive enough for any woman to even consider making the slightest bit of effort to create a relationship with you.

As much as I hate the first half of this (As I am a wimpy guy that is pretty useless at moving furniture, hate to get my hands greasy, etc etc.), this is pretty true.

And to protect myself from backlash, I'm gonna state that I'm gay, and have very little interest in female relationships.

But that translation is completely true. I feel very bad for straight males who have to put up with all of this. And women call us pigs... Pigs are pretty lazy creatures. I say women resemble pigs a lot more then men do. At least in terms of having everything handed to them, and still whining all the time.

 

[Avistew]

To the person who asked the second question:

Quite obviously, your wife is swinging and you are poly. The two are pretty different and can't be expected to work the same way. Poly without love is like swinging without sex, but just because she is swinging doesn't mean she understands how poly works.

Your wife seems that to have problems with you being emotional with someone else. It's not unusual, studies shows that men tend to have more problem with women having sex outside the relationship rather than being in love, while on the other hand women struggle more with the emotional aspects than the sexual ones. Not saying everyone works this way of course, but it seems to be the average. So you need to understand this isn't a double standard on her part. She wants your poly to be like her swinging (hidden, in a specific context, over when a session is done, with no attachment, with several people...) I don't know exactly the details of her swinging but it seems obvious she expects you to follow similar rules.
But you're not swinging. You're in a polyamorous relationship. And what defines polyamory is the love. A relationship can be poly and have no sex involved, but without feelings it's not poly.
But sex is an act, with a beginning and an end, while love is a feeling and it stays there. So while you're with your wife, you still love your girlfriend (an vice-versa) while when she's with you she's not having sex with her playmates.

If she wants to be completely out of your polyamory, or rather, for your polyamory to be disassociated with her, she should know it's not possible. Even if you decide to work on a primary/secondary model, where you have different "ranks" of partners and she'd be a primary one, all your partners are part of your life.
However, that doesn't mean you can neglect her, either, especially if you're under the influence of girlfriend-induced NRE.

Talk with her about how she feels and what causes her to feel that way. You can create boundaries, yes, you probably should have already, but be careful that these boundaries aren't just hiding the issues away.

I agree that you can try seeing each other away from her if that helps her, for now at least. That would make things trickier if you plan to move in together later on though, so it's more likely to be a temporary solution, especially if you don't want to end up with some kind of double life. I mean, most of my best time is spent with several partners at once, and it would be hard having to pretend like one of them isn't my partner.
But you probably have a lot invested with your wife, so the advice I would usually give (leave anyone who can't live with your being poly, as the relationship would be painful for all partners involved) has to go on the back burner here, and I would suggest you try to work things out with her and go slowly about things. The advice often is to go at the pace of the person who struggles the most (and that seems to be her, here).
Go ask on poly forums, too. A lot of people there have experience with mono/poly relationships. And she might be non-monogamous too, but she still seems monoamorous, so they should be able to help because they've been there or they've seen it before. If she is mono, every affection you have for your girlfriend might feel like less affection left for her. I'm poly too, I know that falling in love again makes me more in love with my current partners, not less, but to a mono person it seems counterintuitive because that's not how they work at all.

The bottom line is, poly has structures and rules that are common to the community, but with poly, you kind of need to find the rules for each relationship individually, and you might have neglected that step. And you need to constantly check that everyone is fine and everything is okay. It's demanding of course, the more relationships, the more work, but it's rewarding too, and when you're in love you want to make it work.

Good luck with everything. I know it's hard being the hinge when drama hits because you feel like every decision you make might end up hurting or disrespecting one (or more) of the people you love, but in the end, I've always been able to find the solution that was best for everyone, and I'm sure you can do that too.

 

[drummond13]

Look at ladies not just as potential sex partners - that is, as a means to an end - but as worthy of friendship for their own sake.

Being friends with a woman is like being friends with a really lame guy. He whines about his fuckbuddies all the time, he doesn't like the movies you like because they have tits and blood in them, he won't help you fix your car because it will get his hands greasy and he won't help you move furniture because he is too wimpy.

There is no advantage to having women as friends but tons of disadvantage. However there are several advantages to faking a friendship. A. you might get lucky if she gets desperate or feeling bad or gets drunk enough to overlook your flaws, and B. She is likely to have female friends into whose pants you could potentially get.

The correct course of action is to pretend to care as long as it doesn't require you to make an effort.

But finding love requires putting yourself on the line a little.

Translation from woman language to English: Our culture requires men to do 100% of the work, accept 100% of the social/rejection risk, and commit 100% of the action responsibility. Accept that in order to "play the game" you need to stick your neck out for women to chop off. Because if you are asking advice you probably aren't attractive enough for any woman to even consider making the slightest bit of effort to create a relationship with you.

I kind of hope you're kidding about all of this, but if you're not I'm sensing more than a little angst here. I have some awesome female friends. The roommate of one of them is how I first met my fiance. And saying that our culture treats men unfairly is, um, kind of hilarious. There are double standards all over the place and nobody likes them, of course. But men have far more advantages than women.

 

[imnot]

I promise, CB: Nobody's smuggled the ladies away somewhere, stashing them in some secret volcano hideout.

Thats right, type that.
Muahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[Jarlaxl]

You know what? This is a 100% sensible addition to The Escapist insofar as it strives to be a lifestyle e-magazine, and I'm actually completely pleased that they've decided to publish it.

I just wrote a long response, but I decided to synthesize: observation leads me to conclude that gamer-types often have difficulty getting into and staying in relationships (whether it be MF, FF, MM, or whatever, it seems to be a perennial problem for gamer-types of both genders and all orientations). Having another source of opinion - and, honestly, her advice is spot-on - is nothing but helpful to a typically relationship-challenged demographic.

I appreciate what you're doing, Lara, and I hope that this article goes over well.

 

[LuckyClover95]

I think a relationship like that has a large chance of failing anyway, not definite, but almost.

 

[klausaidon]

Can I ask if you are incredibly masculinist or incredibly bitter? An outlook like that shows how little you understand women. I'd also like to apologise on behalf of my gender to anyone reading your rant.

haHA, I'm fairly certain women don't understand women. Or men for that matter.
It's all subjective though.
All women, and men are different. However, there are shades of the dreaded stereotypes that can be found, no matter how unique someone is, they can be profiled within their group in one way or another.

 

[klausaidon]

I promise, CB: Nobody's smuggled the ladies away somewhere, stashing them in some secret volcano hideout.

Thats right, type that.
Muahahahahahahahahahaha!

Your avatar fits that comment perfectly. I read that in Pinkie's voice.

 

[CosmicCommander]

I looked at the second article.

I gave a sigh.

People seem to be losing a sense of what a marriage is, and what one should do in a relationship like that. Seriously, this borders on ludicrous.

Oh, I know the intellectual hegemony here is gonna brand me as "intolerant" and "unenlightened"- but maybe I'm too idealistic to just believe marriage is about committing yourself to a partner, and sticking with it. Not sharing it out between several people.

If you don't have the commitment and will to have one marital partner, you shouldn't marry.

 

[Coffinshaker]

so... the best way to get the ladies is to be in the friend zone? hmm... interesting tactic.

 

[OniaPL]

...Love advice on Escapist? No thanks.

 

[Jarlaxl]

G'ahh, multi-post. See below.

 

[Jarlaxl]

so... the best way to get the ladies is to be in the friend zone? hmm... interesting tactic.

Not quite. She's saying that one should get comfortable talking to women before one considers asking them out. A good way to do that is to befriend some. For a lot of guys, this is a critical step.

 

[Gralian]

I'm really not vibing this relationship advice, it seems shallow and artificial.

This. The idea of 'love advice' is good and all, but the actual 'advice' given seems incredibly weak. The author is trying to use it as a platform for humour and witticism instead of trying to answer in a serious manner. Or perhaps a suitable solution could not be reached and thus had to resort to suggestions as ridiculous as saving kittens from trees or joining a martial arts class. (Because you know, it's always good to beat someone up before you ask them out to dinner right?)

I have to ask what on earth makes this contributor qualified to be an authority on the subject of love beyond the simple merit of fact that she is a woman. Being a woman does not make you a guru on love. I can see this column working if it's intended as humour or parody, but not as something to be taken seriously, like Dr. Mark. Frankly i think the author should have just said outright that if you lack in social networking skills, there just isn't much hope for you - whether that's social networking in person or on facebook, because that seems to be the general consensus.

But finding love requires putting yourself on the line a little.

Translation from woman language to English: Our culture requires men to do 100% of the work, accept 100% of the social/rejection risk, and commit 100% of the action responsibility. Accept that in order to "play the game" you need to stick your neck out for women to chop off. Because if you are asking advice you probably aren't attractive enough for any woman to even consider making the slightest bit of effort to create a relationship with you.

Although the way rembrantqueinstein put this is perhaps a little bit extreme, there is merit to what s/he is saying. "putting yourself out there" generally means always being the one to make the first move, to be willing to accept rejection, to make yourself out to be above your competitors. This isn't always the case of course but from what i have seen men tend to be "disposable" and women have the pick of the litter, so to speak. They are the ones with the power to choose the partners they consider to be alpha rather than sub-par. Men have to work like dogs to appear more appealing than the rest of the competition, whether they're looking for a one night stand or a proper relationship. That really irks me.

I'm not even going to touch the second question on this column with a ten foot barge pole because i don't want to get dragged into an argument. I'll just say the whole situation is distasteful and leave it at that. In regards to the first question once more, the author should seriously take the time out to consider her readership more and not all of us have the confidence of a "charismatic stallion" and can simply show up like Captain Hammer and go "Hi there!" *cheesy smile* "Want to have dinner sometime?" *Followed by a thumbs up and sparkle of white teeth*. Some people are anxious, awkward individuals, especially members of the gaming culture in particular, and you need to be giving advice that's helpful and applicable to them, not to your well-adjusted everyman. Unless you plan on stating that unless we can become that everyman that society forces us to conform to, we will quite literally be, "Forever Alone"(.JPEG)

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

I'd also like to apologise on behalf of my gender to anyone reading your rant.

Picture of Flying Dagger:


Seriously though your apology doesn't include me. I'm just telling it like it is.

Here is the 5 step program for any geeky guy:

1. take 3-6 months off from thinking about chicks,
1.a punch yourself in the scrot whenever your stupid brain brings up the subject
1.b do pushups whenever you feel jealous or desperate or sorry for yourself, turn your depression into hate because anger is energy and you can use that energy for more productive purposes

2. work on yourself first
2.a clean your room/house, fix your car, get a job, work out, etc. You need to prepare your life to have a relationship should the opportunity ever present itself

3. internalize the fact that no matter what you do there is a chance you will spend the rest of your life alone. The unfortunate fact is that there ISN'T always someone out there for everyone. Accept it and figure out what you are going to do with your life if this is the case. Once you can look yourself in the eye in the mirror and say out loud "I might spend the rest of my life alone" and have that statement have no emotional impact whatsoever you have won the game. You no longer need the validation of a relationship to have a purpose or be happy.

4. learn to talk to strangers

5. realize there is no shame in being horny and wanting to bone chicks, get over the idea that it is sinful or others will be displeased if they know you think about poon

-----------

Homework: watch the movie "Sideways", compare and contrast the Thomas Haden Church and Paul Giamatti characters in their approach to women and relationships

At some point in the movie Paul Giamatti says (paraphrased) "If you don't have money women won't consider you" yet if you look carefully there are several things his character could do to improve his ability to enter a relationship that would cost absolutely nothing.

No matter what you claim your excuse is there is always something that you can do to increase your desirability. Whining never helps anyone.

 

[IndianaJonny]

Goodness, could it be that the demographic the Escapist is trying to reach is broader than only my whims and interests?

Bold move. (and I hope it pays off)

 

[Dogstile]

...Seriously?

I'm pretty sure the advice forum has covered love to death by now

 

[Flying Dagger]

Here is the 5 step program for any geeky guy:

1. take 3-6 months off from thinking about chicks,
1.a punch yourself in the scrot whenever your stupid brain brings up the subject
1.b do pushups whenever you feel jealous or desperate or sorry for yourself, turn your depression into hate because anger is energy and you can use that energy for more productive purposes

2. work on yourself first
2.a clean your room/house, fix your car, get a job, work out, etc. You need to prepare your life to have a relationship should the opportunity ever present itself

3. internalize the fact that no matter what you do there is a chance you will spend the rest of your life alone. The unfortunate fact is that there ISN'T always someone out there for everyone. Accept it and figure out what you are going to do with your life if this is the case. Once you can look yourself in the eye in the mirror and say out loud "I might spend the rest of my life alone" and have that statement have no emotional impact whatsoever you have won the game. You no longer need the validation of a relationship to have a purpose or be happy.

4. learn to talk to strangers

5. realize there is no shame in being horny and wanting to bone chicks, get over the idea that it is sinful or others will be displeased if they know you think about poon

Have you ever heard the joke: There are three blondes on an island, when a genie appears and claims that he can grant them each a wish, the first wishes to be ten times cleverer, builds a raft, and floats off, the second wishes to be a hundred times cleverer, builds a sailboat and sails off, the last wishes they weren't blonde, and walks across the bridge.

The problem with your answer is that it is an infeasible solution to a problem that doesn't require that much effort to solve. Your building a motorboat out of twigs and leaves when you could just take the bridge. In addition: Your solution doesn't even end with the situation most guys that whine about being single are looking for.

A guy doesn't have to be in top shape (I'm not) Extremely confident (I'm not) or rich (definitely not). And yet somehow I've got a girlfriend. And before she was my girlfriend, she was a friend. Along with about twenty other friends I have who are girls.

As much as relationships aren't concerned with just being yourself, they are equally nothing to do with changing every aspect of your life.

A lonely geeky guy who's looking for a girl has absolutely no interest in a girl who only cares for his money, his looks or a one night stand. That's not to say they wouldn't take it if it was on a platter, it's just a simple fact, that is not what they are looking for.

Getting out there and getting to know and befriend girls is the solution to the problem, completely changing everything about yourself is not.

 

[elvor0]

I'm not sure I really dig the idea of a lonely hearts column, it just reinforces the stereotype of well...lonely hearts, given this is a geek site. I dunno, it just seems out of place, especially the second question, and that's not even because it's a geek website, it just seems odd for a dating column in general, the sort of stuff you'd find in a magazine/website catering to that sort of stuff.

I'm not really that fussed, it just seems out of the blue and out of place here, but y'know whatever floats your boat.

Look at ladies not just as potential sex partners - that is, as a means to an end - but as worthy of friendship for their own sake.

Being friends with a woman is like being friends with a really lame guy. He whines about his fuckbuddies all the time, he doesn't like the movies you like because they have tits and blood in them, he won't help you fix your car because it will get his hands greasy and he won't help you move furniture because he is too wimpy.

There is no advantage to having women as friends but tons of disadvantage. However there are several advantages to faking a friendship. A. you might get lucky if she gets desperate or feeling bad or gets drunk enough to overlook your flaws, and B. She is likely to have female friends into whose pants you could potentially get.

What planet are YOU from? There's absolutely nothing wrong with having girls as friends, heck my main social group at Uni consists of 2 boys (one of them being me) and 4 girls and we all get along like a house on fire, there would be more men but most of the guys in my Uni class freak out when presented with any degree of social interaction(Yay for Computing classes) and my other mates live elsewhere now, or they're your stereotypical black gangstas, if you've seen attack the block, that's exactly what they're like, minus the mugging. (I'm not kidding; yay for reinforcing stereotypes!).

Sure that may be the case if you only have really irritating girly girls as friends, but to say that all women are like that is far from the truth, the same as saying most men are your stereotypical douche of a man, and you shouldn't hang around with any men because "they're all like that!!11!" I behave pretty much the same as I would with the girls as I would with my male friends, granted I won't go on about more geeky stuff, but that's only because they're not into that stuff.

And no, I'm not friends with them just to get in their pants before you say that, I'm friends with them because we get along well, I make no distinction between genders, the same as I don't make distinctions between race when I'm choosing friends, because its stupid, I like people for their personality.

Seriously dude, if you only ever optionally interact with women in order to get into their pants, you're a total creep.

EDIT: Given you appear to actually be a girl, I'm not even sure what to think now, but my last statement still stands, because that's essentially what you suggested men do in what I quoted. Presumably you don't act like the lame person in the quote, so surely that means that other women shouldn't either.