How Bayonetta's Gender is Relevant to the Game

[lassiie]

Just dropping a note that few are claiming that the misogyny in the industry came from people being out and out woman-hater types. More that they were/are just obliviously dismissive of the female gender, relegating their entire significance to a story to very limited roles (damsel, fanservice etc.). Of course, that comes full circle and into Yahtzee's point: people most often complain about their sexualised appearance instead of their muted character and plot relevance.

Yes, yes and yes. I was just about to post almost exactly the same ideas, cheers for doing it better than I could.

(I still think the sexualized appearance *is* an issue too because, disproportions or not, we're still floating around just one body type / behaviour for allll women)

I think what he is hitting on is the general misuse of the word misogyny. I hear it tossed around like candy in this day and age, especially in the gaming industry. I don't think most of them mean an actually hatred towards women, but the word still gets used.

Just as
homophobia =/= fear of gays

misogyny =/= hatred of women

The current use of the first one is "Treating women like lesser people without realizing it". Though I agree it gets thrown around too much.

Don't mean to be an asshole, but you are one million percent wrong. Phobia, the suffix meaning 'fear of', homo, meaning same, and in this case, same sex relationships. Misogyny, by definition is hatred or contempt or dislike for women, whichever one you want to choose. When people use it, that's generally not what they mean, but that means they are using the wrong word. Misogyny is a hatred for women by definition.

 

[LarsInCharge]

Just dropping a note that few are claiming that the misogyny in the industry came from people being out and out woman-hater types. More that they were/are just obliviously dismissive of the female gender, relegating their entire significance to a story to very limited roles (damsel, fanservice etc.). Of course, that comes full circle and into Yahtzee's point: people most often complain about their sexualised appearance instead of their muted character and plot relevance.

Yes, yes and yes. I was just about to post almost exactly the same ideas, cheers for doing it better than I could.

(I still think the sexualized appearance *is* an issue too because, disproportions or not, we're still floating around just one body type / behaviour for allll women)

I think what he is hitting on is the general misuse of the word misogyny. I hear it tossed around like candy in this day and age, especially in the gaming industry. I don't think most of them mean an actually hatred towards women, but the word still gets used.

Just as
homophobia =/= fear of gays

misogyny =/= hatred of women

The current use of the first one is "Treating women like lesser people without realizing it". Though I agree it gets thrown around too much.

Don't mean to be an asshole, but you are one million percent wrong. Phobia, the suffix meaning 'fear of', homo, meaning same, and in this case, same sex relationships. Misogyny, by definition is hatred or contempt or dislike for women, whichever one you want to choose. When people use it, that's generally not what they mean, but that means they are using the wrong word. Misogyny is a hatred for women by definition.

The issue here is that the textbook definition, and its new meaning, are two different things.

I really doubt everyone who (wrongly) opposes gay marriage is "scared" of gays. And I sincerely doubt every person who does something misogynistic "hates" women.

 

[lassiie]

Just dropping a note that few are claiming that the misogyny in the industry came from people being out and out woman-hater types. More that they were/are just obliviously dismissive of the female gender, relegating their entire significance to a story to very limited roles (damsel, fanservice etc.). Of course, that comes full circle and into Yahtzee's point: people most often complain about their sexualised appearance instead of their muted character and plot relevance.

Yes, yes and yes. I was just about to post almost exactly the same ideas, cheers for doing it better than I could.

(I still think the sexualized appearance *is* an issue too because, disproportions or not, we're still floating around just one body type / behaviour for allll women)

I think what he is hitting on is the general misuse of the word misogyny. I hear it tossed around like candy in this day and age, especially in the gaming industry. I don't think most of them mean an actually hatred towards women, but the word still gets used.

Just as
homophobia =/= fear of gays

misogyny =/= hatred of women

The current use of the first one is "Treating women like lesser people without realizing it". Though I agree it gets thrown around too much.

Don't mean to be an asshole, but you are one million percent wrong. Phobia, the suffix meaning 'fear of', homo, meaning same, and in this case, same sex relationships. Misogyny, by definition is hatred or contempt or dislike for women, whichever one you want to choose. When people use it, that's generally not what they mean, but that means they are using the wrong word. Misogyny is a hatred for women by definition.

The issue here is that the textbook definition, and its new meaning, are two different things.

I really doubt everyone who (wrongly) opposes gay marriage is "scared" of gays. And I sincerely doubt every person who does something misogynistic "hates" women.

Which is exactly what I said, and that means they either need to come up with a new word, change the definition of the old word, or find a different word.

 

[castlewise]

I think 0 out of infinity women have ever found a dead or alive game inspiring in the same way that some guys would find Gears of War inspiring (even though both have equally unrealistic body images). The "video game women are to breasts as video game men are to abs" thing is just not that symmetrical.

 

[iller3]

"I think it's fair to say that we live in a society that is culturally a bit weird about sex and nudity."

Sums up the entire "gender debate" in my opinion. We've had 2 whole generations now that have literally grown up with instant access to porn (whenever the parents weren't watching) and heavy influence by softcore images through it's prevalence in advertising as well. But meanwhile it was still always "Taboo" at the same time which is also coincidentally what made it more exciting. BUT they've generally lost access to real in-person intimacy. I know it sure feels like it to me anyway. I wouldn't even know where to begin to find the right girlfriend for casual ...whatever the hell it was Yahtzee is suggesting our culture needs to do more of here. Apparently most of us don't and we question whether it's even worth it because there's so much societal and emotional stigmas heaped on top of every aspect tying into it. ...and every kind of "XYZ-shaming" you can think of too!

Sometimes I just like to imagine the 2 armies of the Gender warriors meeting for battle on a randy spring day... in a grand battlefield scene like the Ancient Greek armies where one commander had the hilarious idea to utilize all Mares for every Calvalry unit while the opposing army was mainly studs. And a historical reenactment of that fateful day plays out. By the end of it both armies are too exhausted to hate eachother anymore. And their Prudish extremes they've fetishized all this time just fall to the wayside as they realize that no keyboard driven venting will ever compare to physical contact that atleast temporarily disables the "Us vs. Them" veil.

Societal prudishness is definitely the biggest driver of "Us vs. Them" culture wars IMHO.

 

[Shjade]

I liked the opening section of this, especially the idea of "exaggerated human perfection" but I really disagree that Bayonetta is prudish at heart. I'd say that she isn't about sexuality, but rather sensuality.

I'm not sure how you can disagree with something that wasn't said. The game being about prudishness was the argument made, not that it or the character's personality is prudish.

"Well yes, obviously everyone of your racial background is a thief, but it's OK, because you can join us for our Robin Hood-style heist and finally use your powers for good."

I'm dying. This analogy has killed me. I am slain.

 

[VondeVon]

"Tell me that women never find big muscles attractive and I will call you a liar, because I have glanced at the romance section of my local bookstore and it's a wall of bulging torsos with the heads cropped off."

Well if you're going to generalise all women based on old-fashioned book covers, I guess the discussion is over! You win.

I'm sure some women find beefcake to be attractive but, to paraphrase you Yahtzee, some people find fat people sexy. Women in video games have a very slight range, from girlish to stacked to the odd (and rare) muscled type but men in gaming tend to fall into two categories. Ugly chunky or JRPG.

And sometimes, I wanna play Mass Effect as a skinny guy who doesn't bench press every morning before painstakingly practicing his conversational grunts.

(And for the record, judging by my Aunt's romance books - the only person in my life who reads that garbage - the bloated muscle seems to go hand in hand with a strong 'male dominant, female submissive' vibe that creeps me the hell out but, again, which some people find sexy. Gah.)

 

[iller3]

the bloated muscle seems to go hand in hand with a strong 'male dominant, female submissive' vibe that creeps me the hell out but, again, which some people find sexy. Gah.)

There's hundreds of these articles out there, b/c they epitomize exactly what our society ACTUALLY does, as opposed to what it likes to claim are ideals in the Media, TV shows, and ...yes, forums:
http://www.newsweek.com/study-finds-men-nice-women-not-other-way-around-261269
http://www.askmen.com/dating/heidi/heidi15.html
http://elitedaily.com/dating/why-girls-never-want-nice-guys-and-why-its-too-late-when-they-do/

The important ones though are, when surveyed, or looked through the lense of many dating site statistics, Women by a vast majority will prefer to only assume the submissive role in approaching any relationship. So it's not just generalization. There really are statistics behind it too and this influences the overarching narrative immensely. Games like Bayonetta are a direct result of it, but as Yahtzee said, in a weird prudish twisted logic sense trying to straddle the inverse didactic.


Some will pretend they're above it in internet discussions for obvious reasons and then let the self-loathing towards that behavior further motivate the rhetoric. And in some cases, women have completely lost interest in the men they already had a relationship with as soon as those men stopped acting like the dominate(read:misogynist) overcondident alpha. This in turn creates a huge subset of "disgruntled Betas" in our society and explains the misguided popularity of #GG and "Virtual-Waifus" to fill the void that real women aren't filling. It's a demographics problem really. Just like how C.O.D. is a stale road to nowhere that sells way more copies everywhere than it really should. I never actually MET anyone in real life who prefers COD to Quake/Unreal / etc....but they're out there somewhere and they're the majority. And we can't affect that. The people who do this stuff, and thus drive cultural bias through sheer numbers, don't even read the news or participate in the discussions that modern Activists and Writers are trying to fix.

 

[Enlong]

Is it really S&M torture devices?

Well, I mean, obviously the one used on Joy is, but most of the other torture attacks are execution devices that aren't really on much of a sexual bent, like iron maidens or guillotines.

Is it really S&M torture devices?

Well, I mean, obviously the one used on Joy is, but most of the other torture attacks are execution devices that aren't really on much of a sexual bent, like iron maidens or guillotines.

If I remember the lore correctly the things Bayonetta uses for torture attacks where torture devices used on Umbra Witches during the Witch Hunts (and subsequently haunted by the Umbras they killed, perhaps?), the only odd one out being the device used when you use a torture attack on a Joy.......

That device is actually called the wooden horse or spanish donkey. And it was an actual method of torture and execution.

Interesting.

Of course, the way Bayonetta uses it on Joys is more overtly sexual in tone than like, any of the other Torture Attacks.

 

[VondeVon]

the bloated muscle seems to go hand in hand with a strong 'male dominant, female submissive' vibe that creeps me the hell out but, again, which some people find sexy. Gah.)

-snip-

The people who do this stuff, and thus drive cultural bias through sheer numbers, don't even read the news or participate in the discussions that modern Activists and Writers are trying to fix.

Well, I'm thoroughly depressed.

I do wonder how much of it is that being submissive increases your odds of getting and maintaining a relationship. You see it cultural histories around the world where women are encouraged (with varying degrees of intensity) to be demure and obedient not only out of some sense of 'what is proper' but also from the angle of securing their future.

This is all just speculation from the outside but from the few women I've seen who do seem to embody the demure/submissive role? They seem to be the same ones who want to be housewives. They don't want the stress of having to work for a living, they want to be able to have the TV on, read a good book, play games, go for a coffee or a movie or a walk - all in exchange for being a cook, cleaner and bedwarmer. Most of them are quite brash when out with girls only but turn into simpering dolls when their partners are around.

I don't say this with scorn at all, just a sort of admiring fascination. I wonder if what I'm observing is a conscious or semi-conscious choice. Are they cleverly achieving the lifestyle they want by moderating their mannerisms and personality to appeal to their partners? Or is it just a happy coincidence? Generations of breeding? Cultural norms? Are they replicating the pattern of their parent's relationship, blindly conforming, or is it truly an individual choice?

(How much are my own views tainting what I see?)

 

[LarsInCharge]

Is it really S&M torture devices?

Well, I mean, obviously the one used on Joy is, but most of the other torture attacks are execution devices that aren't really on much of a sexual bent, like iron maidens or guillotines.

Is it really S&M torture devices?

Well, I mean, obviously the one used on Joy is, but most of the other torture attacks are execution devices that aren't really on much of a sexual bent, like iron maidens or guillotines.

If I remember the lore correctly the things Bayonetta uses for torture attacks where torture devices used on Umbra Witches during the Witch Hunts (and subsequently haunted by the Umbras they killed, perhaps?), the only odd one out being the device used when you use a torture attack on a Joy.......

That device is actually called the wooden horse or spanish donkey. And it was an actual method of torture and execution.

Interesting.

Of course, the way Bayonetta uses it on Joys is more overtly sexual in tone than like, any of the other Torture Attacks.

The Joy's "reaction" to it can't help. In the actual method, they simply slowly added heavy weights to the victim's legs until they were torn in half.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

I liked the opening section of this, especially the idea of "exaggerated human perfection" but I really disagree that Bayonetta is prudish at heart. I'd say that she isn't about sexuality, but rather sensuality.

I'm not sure how you can disagree with something that wasn't said. The game being about prudishness was the argument made, not that it or the character's personality is prudish.

See, I think Bayonetta, for all its overt sexiness, is rooted in prudish notions that sexuality is something dangerous, albeit while depicting it as harnessed and under our bidding.

His argument is not just that Bayonetta is about prudishness, but that it is inherently prudish due to the culture in which it was developed. And I'd disagree that you can draw a line between a game being prudish and a game being about prudishness; to be about one, it must display the other. It's like if you wanted to talk about race relations, so your game was entirely from the lens of a Klansman and focused on glorifying Caucasians and degrading everyone else; the developer doesn't necessarily support those views, but it sincerely displays those views.

 

[Vault101]

this is....a bit disappointing

ask most people who talk about sexism with this kind of thing and no, most of the time they DON'T think the creator (or people in general) actually hates or even dislikes women, at least consciously (the only creator that comes to mind whom I think dos have actual issues is Eminem)

you ask most men if they think women are equal to men I'd bet at least 85% would say yes, except that doesn't stop them from have problematic ideas

this "missing of the point" is actually part of the problem, because by "othering" those who are sexist/mysoganist we essentially say [I/]"well I don't hate women so therefore anything I say/create" couldn't possibly be sexist and so youre wrong"[/I] oh hell those guys on that street harassment video some of them probably thought they were being nice...but its CLEAR plenty of women don't like that shit [/I]"but I didn't MEAN it to be sexist therefor it isn't sexist![/I] <-this is wrong

I also feel yahtzee's "defence" of the look in Comics is just an intellectual handwave, it is perhaps a reflection of how we view men/women in their "idolised" versions....

to go offtopic a bit I sometimes wonder if femininity and "practicality" are mutually exclusive to a degree...I mean Anne Hathaway and Sandra Bullock's charachters in their space movies don't give a fuck if they're spacesuits aren't form fitting or the fact they have short hair

 

[ZiggyE]

I like how we all seem to forget that there's certainly lesbian and bisexual female gamers out there who find Bayonetta attractive, but it's "problematic" when male gamers do. It seems more to me that men are being shamed for their sexuality more than anything else.

 

[Farther than stars]

A fascinating perspective, even if the word 'whatevs' put me off a little, because I was generally under the impression that Yahtzee had a fairly strong grasp on the English language.

 

[Farther than stars]

I like how we all seem to forget that there's certainly lesbian and bisexual female gamers out there who find Bayonetta attractive, but it's "problematic" when male gamers do. It seems more to me that men are being shamed for their sexuality more than anything else.

Well, it's less that than the general societal problem of men being exploitative of women, by seeing them as nothing but sexual objects. This can range from 'not calling her back after sex' to actual rape cases. This is a problem lesbian and bisexual women have less, because they are women themselves, meaning they're more likely to be empathetic towards their partners and therefor less likely to demean/harm their partners in such a way.

 

[Vault101]

I like how we all seem to forget that there's certainly lesbian and bisexual female gamers out there who find Bayonetta attractive, but it's "problematic" when male gamers do. It seems more to me that men are being shamed for their sexuality more than anything else.

personally though I don't find overly "male gazey" stuff to be sexy, its just weird and slightly off putting....that's why Blue is the Warmest color fell flat for me

that said I'm sure there are plenty of women who find those things attractive/sexy, because of coarse that's a rather personal and subjective thing, but I just take issue with the implication that its all the same, even for guys

 

[Mykal Stype]

Tell me that women never find big muscles attractive and I will call you a liar, because I have glanced at the romance section of my local bookstore and it's a wall of bulging torsos with the heads cropped off

All of the books I ever see have a woman and a shirtless man weirdly embracing near a body of water. ALWAYS WATER! What is with romance books and movies being so obsessed with water? Every Nicholas Sparks movie has to have a kissing in the rain scene, and probably half of his posters are of a couple weirdly embracing near a body of water.

 

[mrdude2010]

A fascinating perspective, even if the word 'whatevs' put me off a little, because I was generally under the impression that Yahtzee had a fairly strong grasp on the English language.

He does do that "'cos" thing, which has annoyed me a bit in other XP's. Obviously, his points still stand. I feel like it's probably either to save time or because he's said "because" so much he's tired of it and was just looking for a shorter word to get the same idea across.