How Bayonetta's Gender is Relevant to the Game

[Imp_Emissary]

"It makes me think of the Black and White Minstrel Show,..." <-<.....

Uh, I'm guessing this was a joke, but even so, you may want to use a different analogy next time, Yahtzee. Doesn't work so well in print. Then again, I'm thinking that wasn't a complement. Or at least it was a backhanded one.

Anyway, I see were you're going with this idea. Good points, and some I find questionable (Ya don't have to hate women or be a man to show them in a bad light), but over all it was neat.

I like the idea about how we're so scared of sex as a culture as this "dangerous thing", and Bayonetta using a manifestation of that fear as her power to destroy monsters/angles/whatever.

However, I question how much of that was intended, or just part of Yahtzee's interpretation.

To paraphrase Yahtzee said in his review of the first game, parody or not it's still a bit skeevy.

That said, as Yahtzee made note of in the article, they're are worse examples of female representation in games besides Bayonetta, and they often don't have her good qualities either.

Bayonetta may be a bit skeevy and a VERY silly, but that's not so bad.

 

[JimB]

Man, I was just saying the other day that there ought to be a modern-day retelling of Robin Hood featuring a cast of black "gangsta" types. Hadn't thought of it as the subject for a video game, but yeah. I would play the hell out of that.

We must now discuss what the name of this game would be. I kind of want to go with Robbin da Hood, but it comes off a little Ali G (also racist, but if the Leprechaun franchise can get away with it then so can we).

 

[iller3]

Well, I'm thoroughly depressed.

Hope that's somewhat satire b/c depressing certainly wasn't my goal in adding data to the discussion. I just have a weird obsession with causality I guess. But those are great questions that I'll certainly be keeping a closer eye on whenever I consider the demographics & reactions to the game resources I'll be modeling.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

I'm sure some women find beefcake to be attractive but, to paraphrase you Yahtzee, some people find fat people sexy. Women in video games have a very slight range, from girlish to stacked to the odd (and rare) muscled type but men in gaming tend to fall into two categories. Ugly chunky or JRPG.

Yeah..not really. Perhaps if you only play console action games.

Spoiler

 

[jthwilliams]

A fascinating perspective, even if the word 'whatevs' put me off a little, because I was generally under the impression that Yahtzee had a fairly strong grasp on the English language.

well said on both counts. It is an interesting and amusing article with a almost mean disregard for language. Dare I even say it had a fresh perspective on a subject that has of late been little more than a shouting match?

 

[UberPubert]

All of the books I ever see have a woman and a shirtless man weirdly embracing near a body of water. ALWAYS WATER! What is with romance books and movies being so obsessed with water? Every Nicholas Sparks movie has to have a kissing in the rain scene, and probably half of his posters are of a couple weirdly embracing near a body of water.

Maybe it's euphemistic?

Slang for women self-lubricating is "getting wet", after all.

 

[UberPubert]

to go offtopic a bit I sometimes wonder if femininity and "practicality" are mutually exclusive to a degree...I mean Anne Hathaway and Sandra Bullock's charachters in their space movies don't give a fuck if they're spacesuits aren't form fitting or the fact they have short hair

I just wanted to point out this bolded part because it struck me as rather odd.

I think I know what you're getting at, and there is a narrative reason these women have short hair, but plenty of guys (myself included) find short hair on women attractive. Heck, even the rendition of Bayonetta in Bayonetta 2 has short hair.

 

[Vault101]

I just wanted to point out this bolded part because it struck me as rather odd.

I think I know what you're getting at, and there is a narrative reason these women have short hair, but plenty of guys (myself included) find short hair on women attractive. Heck, even the rendition of Bayonetta in Bayonetta 2 has short hair.

its not about being unattractive [footnote/]short hair can both be attractive and is fairly innocuous these days [/footnote]...but rather about being practical, the more practical you get the less "feminine" because I guess our conventional ideas of beauty/femininity aren't concerned with practically

see also woman's jeans with fake pockets or certain characters fighting with their hair out

 

[UberPubert]

its not about being unattractive...but rather about being practical, the more practical you get the less "feminine" because I guess our conventional ideas of beauty/femininity aren't concerned with practically

Is that really true about short hair, though? I mean, type "short hair" into Google images and it doesn't just appear to be attractive, it's quite fashionable, not just recently but for quite some time. Sure, a lot of it is stylized or curled, but when you're talking about the depiction of characters in media that's pretty typical.

see also woman's jeans with fake pockets or certain characters fighting with their hair out

Clothing for men and women have fake pockets, that's just a current trend for dress fashion, and a convention of skin-tight, form-fitting apparel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeggings

In any case, many male characters fight with their hair "out" but I presume you mean male characters with long hair. That's not going to be as common in western games due to conventional fashion (special mention to Geralt of Rivia from The Witcher), but you see it in Japanese ones all the time.

 

[Vault101]

Is that really true about short hair, though? I mean, type "short hair" into Google images and it doesn't just appear to be attractive, it's quite fashionable, not just recently but for quite some time. Sure, a lot of it is stylized or curled, but when you're talking about the depiction of characters in media that's pretty typical.

even though this is 2014 and short hair has been or is fashionable for some time...its still something of the exception to the norm, kind of like curly hair

and its still "practical"[/footnote]well it does require more up-keep depending on how its styled[/footnote] I your an astronaught or solder, you don't have time to be fussing over your appearance, and even then a female character with short hair (even the fashionable kind) might also be visual shorthand for telling us she's tomboyish/is an action girl or is quirky

[quote/]
Clothing for men and women have fake pockets, that's just a current trend for dress fashion, and a convention of skin-tight, form-fitting apparel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeggings[/quote]
but its more common with women based on the assumption 1.cloths will be form fitting and 2.she will carry a handbag

[quote/]In any case, many male characters fight with their hair "out" but I presume you mean male characters with long hair. That's not going to be as common in western games due to conventional fashion (special mention to Geralt of Rivia from The Witcher), but you see it in Japanese ones all the time.[/quote]

I was thinking more Mass Effect, Miranda fighting with her hair out is kind of ridiculous given the aesthetics of the previous game, Ashley fighting with her hair out is beyond stupid given her original character design and (again) the "grounded" look the games had before....its all about context

 

[UberPubert]

even though this is 2014 and short hair has been or is fashionable for some time...its still something of the exception to the norm, kind of like curly hair

I don't know about an "exception". It seems less common than long hair, but as we see, it's fashionable.

and its still "practical"[/footnote]well it does require more up-keep depending on how its styled[/footnote] I your an astronaught or solder, you don't have time to be fussing over your appearance, and even then a female character with short hair (even the fashionable kind) might also be visual shorthand for telling us she's tomboyish/is an action girl or is quirky

It's really not that big of a deal, though; as a guy, I have shoulder length hair, and when I'm on the job or playing I just pull it back into a pony-tail. It doesn't bother me and nobody else seems to care. As part of dress code some people are required to keep their hair up, but that's really only when they're on duty.

In reality short-hair really isn't much more practical than medium or long length hair. Personally, I think short hair looks more "professional" and "clean".

but its more common with women based on the assumption 1.cloths will be form fitting and 2.she will carry a handbag

It's more common on legwear because wearing form-fitting clothes on men's lower bodies is uncomfortable for anatomical reasons, and the popularity of such clothing is based almost entirely on women's purchasing of said clothing - whether for comfort or fashion - so such an assumption is safe to make. This is also why such assumptions can be made about handbags.

I was thinking more Mass Effect, Miranda fighting with her hair out is kind of ridiculous given the aesthetics of the previous game, Ashley fighting with her hair out is beyond stupid given her original character design and (again) the "grounded" look the games had before....its all about context

But the aesthetics of the first and only previous game of the series changed dramatically for everyone, not just Miranda's character.

For example, it was more than possible that at any given moment, everyone on your squad could look like this: http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/17537/856030-masseffect.jpg

Leap forward and the sequel features a cast like this (missing Kasumi, but whatever):
http://liztellsfrank.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/mass_effect_-characters.png

Characters in Mass Effect were "grounded", sure, but they were also uniform - some might even say "boring". There's any number of reasons this could be the case, from Bioware not wanting to put so much money into a brand new IP and cutting corners on assets, to it actually being a conscious design decision, to Mass Effect just being rushed (and considering the leaps and bounds made in graphical fidelity on the same platform, regardless of the more subjective aesthetics, this could be the case, even a couple years after the 360 launched).

But to me, it just seems like they diversified the cast. Sure, you can say that Miranda's hair is impractical, as well as Jack being mostly naked from the waist up and Samara having a V-neck that's reaching for her navel, but I think it's also important to note Jacob is wearing a skin-tight bodysuit and Thane is wearing little more than an open jacket and some stockings; even Mordin's pushing the envelope with form-fitting leggings, knee high boots and a lab coat being his only protection.

Considering that context? Miranda's hair is fine.

 

[Kahani]

I've often heard the argument that male and female heroes in video games and comic books are both designed solely to appeal to immature men, the simpering fat-titted stick-insects to excite their nerd boners and the bulging interchangeable six-packs for the aspirational power fantasy. And I've never been convinced of that. Tell me that women never find big muscles attractive and I will call you a liar, because I have glanced at the romance section of my local bookstore and it's a wall of bulging torsos with the heads cropped off.

This is because you're not paying attention to the actual argument. No-one is claiming that women are not attracted to muscles, but that they're generally not attracted to the ridiculously over-the-top bodybuilder parodies who tend to appear in comics and the like. Obviously people's tastes differ, but studies have shown time and again that the men women generally find more attractive are the ones that get described as "athletic" and "toned", not the ones that look like someone took a giant cube of muscle and punched it into something vaguely approaching a human shape. The romance section of your local book store is a wall of guys with sixpacks, not the Hulk. Who is generally considered more attractive, Brad Pitt, or Arnie?

So yeah, whoever you think the interchangeable slabs of meat masquerading as protagonists in many video games are catering to, they're certainly not there to give women something to get all excited over. Generic white male space marine #27 is not a sex symbol.

 

[Olas]

I think the notion of sexuality being a form of "objectification" has mostly been used as an excuse to criticize female sexualization in games by people who have a problem with it, but can't understand out or articulate the real reason why.

Lots of characters in games are treated merely as objects or plot devices without being given fully fleshed out characters or personalities: faceless enemy goons, stock villagers who only exist to give exposition. Yet we don't consider them to be a major problem in gaming.

The same goes for issues of female warrior armor being "unrealistic", as if realism was always an important focus of the games to begin with.

I think the real issue is just that some people find it tasteless and pandering, trying to win us over by appealing to baser desires of titillation, which often feels forced or out-of-place contextually, over trying to engage us on a higher level intellectually.

And you can call it prudishness if you want, but just know that NOT being sex-positive isn't the same thing as being old fashioned, or sheltered, or deeply rooted in "family values" or any of that stuff.

 

[VondeVon]

I'm sure some women find beefcake to be attractive but, to paraphrase you Yahtzee, some people find fat people sexy. Women in video games have a very slight range, from girlish to stacked to the odd (and rare) muscled type but men in gaming tend to fall into two categories. Ugly chunky or JRPG.

Yeah..not really. Perhaps if you only play console action games.

-snip-

Very true. I forgot 'Average Joe' (male equivalent of 'Plain Jane') and 'Inspector Poirot'.

 

[beastro]

Crux of this argument I disagree with is the idea that sex should somehow not be special and everyone should treat it like common bodily functions.

Sorry, sire, most people want to keep it exciting and private.

And the talk of it not being dangerous is rich.

 

[Hamana Mamana]

I've often heard the argument that male and female heroes in video games and comic books are both designed solely to appeal to immature men, the simpering fat-titted stick-insects to excite their nerd boners and the bulging interchangeable six-packs for the aspirational power fantasy. And I've never been convinced of that. Tell me that women never find big muscles attractive and I will call you a liar, because I have glanced at the romance section of my local bookstore and it's a wall of bulging torsos with the heads cropped off.

This is because you're not paying attention to the actual argument. No-one is claiming that women are not attracted to muscles, but that they're generally not attracted to the ridiculously over-the-top bodybuilder parodies who tend to appear in comics and the like. Obviously people's tastes differ, but studies have shown time and again that the men women generally find more attractive are the ones that get described as "athletic" and "toned", not the ones that look like someone took a giant cube of muscle and punched it into something vaguely approaching a human shape. The romance section of your local book store is a wall of guys with sixpacks, not the Hulk. Who is generally considered more attractive, Brad Pitt, or Arnie?

So yeah, whoever you think the interchangeable slabs of meat masquerading as protagonists in many video games are catering to, they're certainly not there to give women something to get all excited over. Generic white male space marine #27 is not a sex symbol.

But then people bring up someone like Dante, who is toned, has longer hair, doesn't drink beer, and in general so ho... you know. And then these social justice warriors shut that argument down, claiming that Dante is also solely a "male power fantasy".

Same with Bayonetta. A character who is both powerful and attractive and isn't horribly repressed about it? Male power fantasy!

To them, absolutely everything is a "male" power fantasy, as if a power fantasy is exclusively a "male" thing. This is what, as a girl, infuriates me about this the most. It's pretty sexist in itself, don't you think? Assuming power is a thing that can only appeal to a male. How is that concept in any way promoting equality or social justice or feminism for that matter?

Being attractive and sexy is empowering for both genders, not just dudes. Being all of that and pretty strong is also a thing people of both genders can aspire to be. You think all girls who get breast surgery and/or cosplay in sexy suits do that to attract men? Think again, because that kind of thinking is misogynistic and objectifying far more than any boob size could.

Don't listen to prudes just because they've switched tactics. They're still prudes, call them what they are, look through their lies of whatever cause they pretend totaly benefits from their shame and regression.

 

[Dizchu]

I'm sure some women find beefcake to be attractive but, to paraphrase you Yahtzee, some people find fat people sexy. Women in video games have a very slight range, from girlish to stacked to the odd (and rare) muscled type but men in gaming tend to fall into two categories. Ugly chunky or JRPG.

Here's a consideration I'd like to bring up. I don't disagree that women in video games tend to have a narrow range of looks but I'd argue that female characters have more diverse personalities than male characters.

Male characters aren't usually allowed to divert from personality types that are stoic, unemotional, smart-ass or entirely silent. Female characters often get more room to express vulnerability, mischievousness, finesse and in Bayonetta's case a confident flaunting of their own sexuality.

I'd love to see more male characters that are vulnerable or even complete dweebs. It wouldn't be much of a power fantasy but I think it'd be really fun.

Yeah..not really. Perhaps if you only play console action games.

Spoiler

The same can be said for female characters in adventure games. Some of the best-written women in video games are from the point-and-click genre (April Ryan springs to mind). In fact, a lot of non-mainstream games directly contradict the assertions many gender activists make about games.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Yeah..not really. Perhaps if you only play console action games.

Spoiler

The same can be said for female characters in adventure games. Some of the best-written women in video games are from the point-and-click genre (April Ryan springs to mind). In fact, a lot of non-mainstream games directly contradict the assertions many gender activists make about games.

That's exactly why people's issues with stereotypes female characters confuses me. If you can't find enough unique females in games, what the hell kind of games are you playing? And why? It's kind of like saying there are too many sexualised women on TV and then saying you only watch porn.

 

[srpilha]

The issue here is that the textbook definition, and its new meaning, are two different things.

I really doubt everyone who (wrongly) opposes gay marriage is "scared" of gays. And I sincerely doubt every person who does something misogynistic "hates" women.

Which is exactly what I said, and that means they either need to come up with a new word, change the definition of the old word, or find a different word.

There's no need for a new word, homophobia was never exclusively a fear of homosexuals or homosexuality, just as misogyny was never exclusively a hatred towards women.
These words carry indeed many subtleties when you look at them closely enough, but we shouldn't forget they remain important in naming and addressing very real issues. Getting fixed on the "original" meaning of the greek or latin roots of contemporary words is missing the point these words are actually addressing.
This gets problematically close to simple dismissals of the problem: paying a woman less is not misogynistic because I don't hate her, I just think she's worth less than a man; denying marriage rights to homosexuals is not homophobic because it's not made out of fear, I'm doing it because I really want them to go to heaven.

Meaning is always given by usage; if we disagree on the meaning of a word, we should look at how it is actually being used, and how we wish to use it in order to better communicate.

No one built the word "homophobia" solely to indicate actual fear of homosexuals or homosexuality, just like hydrophobic materials don't actually fear water, or a misanthrope doesn't necessarily hate all mankind.
So yeah, homophobia and misogyny are correctly used here.