How can "gamers" and "social justice warriors" get along?

[Phrozenflame500]

When people stop thinking of others as "gamers" or "SJWs" and recognize each other as fellow human beings with logically and sometimes illogically formed opinions that should be argued on each one's individual merit instead of as an abstract extremist dehumanizing collective.

When people stop making stupid prejudiced knee-jerk assumptions about "those darn SJWs/Gamers/Feminists/MRAs/Liberals/Conservatives/Foreigners/Rednecks/(Racial Group)/Christians/Muslims/Jews/Scary People Who Aren't Me" the world will be a better place.

 

[LAGG]

Easily-offended individuals will always find something to be offended with. There's nothing that can be done about that.

Like Gamers being offended at someone pointing out that their favorite game might have some serious problematic implications?

I consider myself a gamer and don't relate to what you're talking about.

Every single thing in the world "might have some serious problematic implications" if you ask the right people, depending on what they consider "problematic" and "serious". I grew up hearing that "games are for awkward nerds", "games are for kids", "games make people violent"... there's not outstanding to be seen here. Yesterday, today, tomorrow, there'll always be something.

If a person will care for everything everyone else thinks, that person will likely go crazy, because people think all kinds of weird stuff all over the world.

Anyway, fear of mass hysteria is still part of basic human nature, and also not completely devoid of reason. That's why zombies are so popular, and why films like The Mist in the scene where

Spoiler

everyone starts following the crazy lady

and anything using the "Go Among Mad People" or "Only Sane Man" tropes can hit people in the right places. But fear of mass hysteria and cult mentality is a different thing from genuinely feeling offended about something, and most people are unable to word the difference of what's going on in their minds when they react to stuff they read online.

 

[Lightknight]

You know because you couldn't possibly set the boob size lower when you have a choice.

Who is anyone to say that the second body image is less valid than the first? Why do you get to decide what the default is? Why should it be the body of a twelve year old boy with a girl's head on it?

I rarely get to make my male characters into fat bastards. Should people make an similar image as above but of a fat bastard on one side and a gloriously chiseled ab machine on the other and complain that most avatars don't look like the former?

Yes, avatars are generally made to look attractive and/or dangerous. Same as why certain actors/actresses are hired to star in movies.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

Lately, I've been noticing a massive divide between hardcore gamers and gaming journalists or critics with a social agenda. There has been a lot of accusing, finger pointing, misrepresentation on both sides, and an ugliness that I hoped never to witness.

What is the middle ground and how do we reach it?

The fact is that gaming has become a mainstream hobby and developers, publishers, artists, etc. should have the freedom to create whatever they want and critics have the right to criticize whatever they want. How do we move past the argument? How do we move past the name calling? How do we find the the paradise where all gamers, social and hardcore, man and woman, can join hands and say "We love Video Games!"? I like games but there's always room to get better, whether it's graphical, gameplay related or in a social meaning.

Can't we all just... get along?

Personally, I just try to ignore them. I'm not always successful, because of the sheer stupidity I see the "social justice" people spouting, but for the most part I flat out ignore them. I think alot of this started when people started referring to games as "an art form". Cue me rolling my eyes. I play games for relaxation, enjoyment, and escapism from the regular world. I cant stand movies OR games that try to make a political statement, and when they do, I avoid them if at all possible, and wish for their abject failure. They have no place in my world of gaming, and I feel reasonably sure that there are ALOT of other gamers out there that feel the same way.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

You know because you couldn't possibly set the boob size lower when you have a choice.

Who is anyone to say that the second body image is less valid than the first? Why do you get to decide what the default is? Why should it be the body of a twelve year old boy with a girl's head on it?

I rarely get to make my male characters into fat bastards. Should people make an similar image as above but of a fat bastard on one side and a gloriously chiseled ab machine on the other and complain that most avatars don't look like the former?

Yes, avatars are generally made to look attractive and/or dangerous. Same as why certain actors/actresses are hired to star in movies.

Agreed, and they definitely do it with males, as well. Anyway, speaking of having a chance to play a fat bastard, if you havent played it already, might I recommend Gotham City Imposters? Its a hoot to play, and you can make some pretty hilarious characters as well.

 

[Lightknight]

Agreed, and they definitely do it with males, as well. Anyway, speaking of having a chance to play a fat bastard, if you havent played it already, might I recommend Gotham City Imposters? Its a hoot to play, and you can make some pretty hilarious characters as well.

Well, the fat guy example was more for an obvious male example but I that is a great recommendation if you want unusual body types. Sometimes I just think it'd be fun to play as a crazily fat dude, you know? Like 500lbs plus but running around brandishing a sword in Skyrim or whatever. They're beginning to have sliding scales of weight in games but usually it just gets up to chunky and nowhere close to fluffy, "daaaaamn" or "Oh, Hell no" sizes. (Gabriel Iglesias on the Sixth Level of Fat [http://www.cc.com/video-clips/32b85n/stand-up-gabriel-iglesias--the-sixth-level-of-fat])

But mostly I want to play as that chiseled ab-infested bad ass that looks like he could cut you with his stubble.

glad I'm not the only one who saw a huge problem with that image because it really does push the whole "I need to play as an exact representation of me" which is why when the larger market is male then there are more male protagonists because people are telling the companies they want things closer to them to play.

Glad you didn't read my pronouns as YOU as in The Kodu. Reading back over my post it suddenly occurs to me that it wasn't necessarily a given that I was using the "Royal You" there and not demanding why you specifically have a right to define the legitimate body types.

I find it interesting that I see real world examples all the time that are practically posters of the game characters that the SJW crowd complains about all the time. Girls that jog in booty shorts and sports bras only in public areas and people who dress in spandex all the time.

It occurred to me sometime to ask the question, "Why are these girls and their body types less legitimate that body types we see the SJW people arguing for?" It's around that point that I stopped worrying about body types or even personalities in games because for the most part, there are always people that are really like that in real life. Even if there weren't, we're talking about someone making visual art the way they want to.

 

[Karadalis]

excpet most pople aren't saying that and this continues misinterpretation is a real effing problem

Didnt "the most dangerous women in gaming" just claimed in her most recent video that things that happen in video games do infact have a real lasting effect on the person who is playing said games?

So if the video game is mysoginistic... you will become mysoginistic yourselfe.. the game influences you to be so.

If the game is violent... you will automatically become violent... the game influences you to be so.

Oh wait no.. the second one was proclaimed by a lawyer and not a "feminist" internet pop culture critic so it doesnt count.

And this is why i have a big problem with people like bob and jim supporting people like her so unquestionably.

On one hand they keep decrying people like jack thompson as morons that just want to make a quick buck and have no real base for their arguments...

While on the other they keep telling us what horrible people we are for not buying into the crap Sarkesian and the like want to push.

She sits infront of a camera and tells us why we are bad people for liking mario games because they "objectivy" princes peach. And if you claim that she didnt claimed that we are bad people for liking these games then why did her last video told us that mysoginistic games = mysoginistic people make?

However: She doesnt interview women that work in the industry and maybe had personal experiences of sexist encounters with co workers and managment. She doesnt interview companies and try to find out why thy have a problem with female main characters, why there isnt more diversity. My guess is the answer would be pretty boring: Sales numbers.

But remember... "most dangerous women in gaming" right mr Chipman?

Thought no one of "prominence" in game journalism ever speaks about this.. instead we get to listen to jim chastisizing us for being so toxic and hostile and that we as a "community" (remember gamers have developed a hivemind) need to stop doing these things. (remember that female bioware employee that left bioware and everyone claimed that it was because of deaththreads, only later to be found out that it had nothing to do with those deaththreads? Yeah we still got yelled at by jim for it in one of his videos even thought i doubt any of his regular audience belonged in the category of people that make such comments)

Only for in another video telling us to keep whining to big publishers cause whining (aka loud vocal backlash to their shenanigans) aparantly is the only thing that can make them change their ways.

What now? Less toxicity? More toxicity? Only against certain "sanctioned" targets?

Its this double morale, this hypocrisy that really grinds my gears, especialy since most often i do agree with these people on most problems the industry has and just dont understand when they turn around to point fingers at their own audience.

As for the SJWs themselves... what happens on tumblr shows up either on youtube/imgur/4chan and i say let it stay there. Nothing ever good comes from drama created by people hungry for attention.

 

[Vault101]

Snip
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as much as we forget we don't live in a bubble...its not JUST games, theres the argument pop culture influences us in many ways...an old popular article http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women_p2.html

we live in a rather male centric society and our entertainment reflects that, if there is merit in the idea when we shouldn't ignore it just because it makes us uncomfortable

 

[Vault101]

The girl on the left is actually quite sexy especially with that outfit. If she would bother actually cracking a smile I would be willing to place bets she would have men absolutely dying for some of her attention.

which is relevant to....oh yeah...nothing

its relevant to nothing

[quote/]You know what bothers me about this world, this day and age? Women aren't allowed to be sexy.
[/quote]
except the idea in that picture is that THEY are decided for "her" what is and isn't "sexy" she isn't allowed to be herself

 

[Lightknight]

Snip
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as much as we forget we don't live in a bubble...its not JUST games, theres the argument pop culture influences us in many ways...an old popular article http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women_p2.html

we live in a rather male centric society and our entertainment reflects that, if there is merit in the idea when we shouldn't ignore it just because it makes us uncomfortable

Products will follow the money. Action flicks largely have males in it and ultra sexy females because men are usually the ones buying tickets to them. Same with AAA games.

We know that there are differences in genre preference between sexes in nearly every form of media. It would be naive to assume this isn't the case in gaming as well. The problem is that non-action games typically aren't the huge money makers and are often more difficult to make than just slapping together a fighting mechanic and having you overcome enemies.

But if you think female characters aren't main characters 50% of the time just because "men hate women" shenanigans, you're wrong. They're not main characters most of the time because they're not even close to being the vast majority of the AAA gaming demographics. Last study we had that distinguished console ownership by sex we saw 80% of female console gamers owning a Wii which automatically excluded them from most of the AAA market. However, you'll notice that Nintendo has been making huge strides to make female friendly games. That ESA study includes everything from iOS to any grandmother who once watched a person playing solitaire out of the corner of her eye. It's not the actual AAA target market.

These are businesses and they follow the consumer, not vice versa. There's a reason why the female developer (forget her name) recommended an ability to skip action scenes like people skip cut scenes. People scoffed at her but she was right, if there is a bias against action games in the female demographic then having the ability to make well written games more like movies than action games could really improve the market. And it was just the ABILITY to skip, which wouldn't have even impacting all the people doing to the scoffing.

That being said, where possible, there should always be a female alternative and any other number of people that would be reasonable to add. If not a full character cust utility.

 

[Dragonbums]

-snip-

I can't say anything about Bob, but I'm fairly certain Jim Sterling has said in one of his videos that he finds Anita's videos at best boring and obvious and at worst incorrect. Not once did he openly praise her as some sort of top tier feminist gamer.

In fact I specifically remembered him stating that Anita started off as yet another person on their corner of the internet enjoying her echo chamber with nobody giving a shit about her. Yet her dissenters couldn't shut up about her for more than 5 seconds that she went from Youtube nobody to Youtube celebrity.

 

[Lightknight]

But before I go, I'm with you Lightknight. The lack of female protagonists is not a machination of the patriarchy allowed to exist due to misoginy... It is however, the free market selling its wares to the target demographic for profit.

Exactly. If there were money in it the same way there's money in the male dominated market then companies would flock to it.

Companies love money like a fat kid loves cake. And boy do I like cake.

If ever a romance novel equivalent is found then you can bet it'll be released in droves.

I say this knowing full well that my wife loves FPS games like COD and is in the minority there. There will always be people outside the statistical norms. For the 80% of girls that owned the wii as their primary console, there was still 20% of girls that owned a PS3 or 360.

 

[Don Incognito]

Re: the OP, avoiding the use of semi-pejorative terms like "social justice warriors" would be a decent start.

 

[Michael Kirley]

SJWs don't get along with anyone. It's not that "gamers" are uniquely disagreeable and that they just can't get along with SJWs, or something; it's that SJWs practically define themselves by finding "problematic" things everywhere, which makes them a grating bunch to associate with. Authentic social justice causes, like trying to avert real-world poverty, are often left by the wayside so that obnoxious Tumblrinas can wax poetic about how someone wearing a bindi is "cultural appropriation" and deserving of the death penalty. The problem is really pretty simple: the vast majority of SJW arguments are intellectually bankrupt. Nobody (gamer, or otherwise) is going to get along with them until they stop spouting absurdities (e.g. that racism has been redefined to only ever refer to institutional racism) and start opening themselves up to civil discourse. That hasn't happened, and if it ever does happen, it'll come at the expense of a lot of popular SJW positions of the moment, since many of them are indefensible.

 

[Dragonbums]

trying to avert real-world poverty,are often left by the wayside

Oh look, a differently worded Starving kids in X fallacy.

And tell me Michael Kirly- what have you yourself done for the poor souls in third world countries as opposed to whining about tumblr blogs on the internet?

Tumblrinas can wax poetic about how someone wearing a bindi is "cultural appropriation" and deserving of the death penalty.

I've seen this argument before and your completely misrepresent it. They never advocated for the death penalty. They pointed out the issue that when women of Islam wear Bindis, Hijabs, and other such garments they are considered oppressed and lacking free will. However when someone like say- Taylor Swift does it, it's considered hip, cool and edgy.

Perhaps they get annoyed because people like you go out of your way to misrepresent and exaggerate what they say?

The problem is really pretty simple: the vast majority of SJW arguments are intellectually bankrupt.

Nice ad hominem you got there.

Nobody (gamer, or otherwise) is going to get along with them until they stop spouting absurdities

Like what exactly? Also "SJW" are not an exclusively group. Believe it or not, just like one can be a Sports fan and a literature enthusiast, one can be an "SJW" and any other self identifying group.

Oh, and the first step to getting along with someone is to not insult them right out of the gate and make hyperbolic statements about things they talk about.

(e.g. that racism has been redefined to only ever refer to institutional racism)

I've seen this and that's not true either. I don't think they ever said racism is only racism if it's institutionalized. They have stated that certain negative stereotypes about different ethnic groups have been institutionalized.

and start opening themselves up to civil discourse. That hasn't happened, and if it ever does happen, it'll come at the expense of a lot of popular SJW positions of the moment, since many of them are indefensible.

People tend to not open up to any civil conversation when the person in queston comes right out of the gate to claim that "SJW"s are "intellectually bankrupt."

And how are you certain that most of their positions will crumble? You yourself in this very post have already misrepresented a good deal of their arguments into things they never actually said.

 

[Michael Kirley]

trying to avert real-world poverty,are often left by the wayside

Oh look, a differently worded Starving kids in X fallacy.

Not at all. SJWs hijack the cause of social justice to pontificate about things that have nothing to do with real struggles. They piggyback off of legitimate movements to make themselves relevant.

And tell me Michael Kirly- what have you yourself done for the poor souls in third world countries as opposed to whining about tumblr blogs on the internet?

You've misunderstood my argument.

Tumblrinas can wax poetic about how someone wearing a bindi is "cultural appropriation" and deserving of the death penalty.

I've seen this argument before and your completely misrepresent it. They never advocated for the death penalty. They pointed out the issue that when women of Islam wear Bindis, Hijabs, and other such garments they are considered oppressed and lacking free will. However when someone like say- Taylor Swift does it, it's considered hip, cool and edgy.[/quote]

Except this is not what they argue at all. First off, wearing Bindis or Kimonos isn't perceived by the majority of Western culture as being indicative of a lack of free will, and yet SJWs on numerous blogs claim that someone who isn't, say, Japanese, shouldn't be wearing a kimono.

Perhaps they get annoyed because people like you go out of your way to misrepresent and exaggerate what they say?

Get off your high horse. I've debated with tonnes of SJWs. Everything I've said so far has come almost verbatim out of the mouth of multiple Tumblrinas that I've talked to in the past.

The problem is really pretty simple: the vast majority of SJW arguments are intellectually bankrupt.

Nice ad hominem you got there.

That's not an ad hominem in the slightest. An attack on an argument isn't an attack on character.

Nobody (gamer, or otherwise) is going to get along with them until they stop spouting absurdities

Like what exactly? Also "SJW" are not an exclusively group. Believe it or not, just like one can be a Sports fan and a literature enthusiast, one can be an "SJW" and any other self identifying group.

I posted a non-exhaustive list of things that I think are ridiculous and which SJWs are wont to say. You can read it here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.855605-Reclaiming-SJW?page=3#21190947

Oh, and the first step to getting along with someone is to not insult them right out of the gate and make hyperbolic statements about things they talk about.

Except I'm not doing that. You're not the first person I've encountered who's sympathetic to SJWs.

(e.g. that racism has been redefined to only ever refer to institutional racism)

I've seen this and that's not true either. I don't think they ever said racism is only racism if it's institutionalized. They have stated that certain negative stereotypes about different ethnic groups have been institutionalized.

Wrong. The "racism = power + prejudice" equation is ubiquitous on SJW Tumblrs.

and start opening themselves up to civil discourse. That hasn't happened, and if it ever does happen, it'll come at the expense of a lot of popular SJW positions of the moment, since many of them are indefensible.

People tend to not open up to any civil conversation when the person in queston comes right out of the gate to claim that "SJW"s are "intellectually bankrupt."

Not coming "right out of the gate." We're discussing SJWs as a category; obviously I'm going to generalize based on the ones I've encountered. The ones I've encountered have been almost entirely poor people to discuss with.

And how are you certain that most of their positions will crumble? You yourself in this very post have already misrepresented a good deal of their arguments into things they never actually said.

Lol. Do you really want to go down this road? You actually want to deny that SJWs say these things? I think you're the one unfamiliar with the cesspool that is Tumblr.