How can gamers be made to fear ingame death?

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Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Crimson Lucario said:
That only applies to competitive FPS PLAYERS, not FPS games, death is meaningless in CoD for any but the hardcore and s&d players, domination and TDM aren't feard by the average player.
And no matter what you do, this is how it will be. Those that care about death will care care about death, and those that aren't won't be. Adding punishments such as long respawn times doesn't make no-competitive/hardcore players more likely to fear death, merely more likely to stop playing the game as it tries to stop them from playing it.

And about RPGs, ever played Binding of Isaac? It costs 5 bucks on steam and it has permadeath, forcing you to start the game over completely, most lets players are scared as shit about death.
If it has saves, easy to just save every now and then, copy the save file to USB, then if you die and it is wiped just paste it back.
If it doesn't have saves, this is simply the same case as your competitive and hardcore FPS players case. Only those that care will care. Others, like myself, will do a runthrough to get as far through the game as they can, and when you die just uninstall and play something that doesn't ask you to repeat 3 hours if you have even a momentary lapse in concentration.
 

SnowyGamester

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Oct 18, 2009
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The only game I've played where I have a genuine fear of death is in DayZ. You die, you lose everything and spawn who knows where, probably a long walk from any companions you may have been with or any decent loot. As a first time player it's easy to get especially frustrated with the people camping on the top of fire stations and the like, picking off passing players when they get the chance, though having tried it once myself after quite a long time of scavenging, late at night, knowing that any second now you might not see someone and be taken out yourself, losing everything you've worked for, I've found that it is a strangely exhilarating experience, to the point where I was physically shaking with anxiety, and not simply a bit of trolling (at least not in every case).
 

krazykidd

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Mar 22, 2008
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Odbarc said:
Rewarding non-deaths is usually the best.
The duration of length you can go without dying before claiming a save&reward.

If you go 10 minutes, you get some gold.
Go 30 minutes, you get ammo.
Go three hours, you fancy gun or mod for a gun.
This is an interesting idea . How would you make it work in singleplayer games though? I can see people just hiding in a safe spot , leaving the console on and go do something else whilst not playing . I would like to see developpers do this though .
 

Hjalmar Fryklund

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May 22, 2008
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krazykidd said:
Odbarc said:
Rewarding non-deaths is usually the best.
The duration of length you can go without dying before claiming a save&reward.

If you go 10 minutes, you get some gold.
Go 30 minutes, you get ammo.
Go three hours, you fancy gun or mod for a gun.
This is an interesting idea . How would you make it work in singleplayer games though? I can see people just hiding in a safe spot , leaving the console on and go do something else whilst not playing . I would like to see developpers do this though .
Why not add some kind of "whipping" function that punishes players for sitting still (nothing too dramatic, mind)? Or just alter the discussed function to something like "the duration of length you can move around without dying before claiming a save&reward" thus forcing players to be active?
 

BoredAussieGamer

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Aug 7, 2011
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Well, you could make player death result in a RROD (Or equivilent)

I dunno, maybe I'm just sadistic. (Sorry if this has already been suggested)
 

saintdane05

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Aug 2, 2011
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Simple: If your character dies, the game pumps cyanide into your blood! That's a way to get you on your toes!
 

JasonKaotic

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Mar 18, 2009
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Dark Souls did it pretty well. If you die in it you go back to being undead, you lose all your accumulated experience and humanity, all enemies respawn and you are taken back to the last bonfire you visited, which is usually pretty far away. I've also heard the game gets harder every time you die, but I didn't notice anything like that, it might've been Demon's Souls they were on about, but still.
That makes fighting tense.
[small](Other players invading your world when you've gotten really far/racked up loads of experience is probably one of the most terrifying experiences any gamer will ever have. They will always, always manage to one-hit you.)[/small]
 

Mirroga

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Jun 6, 2009
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The solution is just a simple concept called Punishment. Make them lose time and progress for doing drastic, lazy, and outright bad things. In other words, I can consider the solutions to have areas where you can save and no checkpoints in between. And make each save slot be lengthy, but not unfair.

Some people will hate it, but they've been too spoiled by the ease of forgiving checkpoints and/or instasaves (savestates) in every area they are in.
 

Odbarc

Elite Member
Jun 30, 2010
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krazykidd said:
Odbarc said:
Rewarding non-deaths is usually the best.
The duration of length you can go without dying before claiming a save&reward.

If you go 10 minutes, you get some gold.
Go 30 minutes, you get ammo.
Go three hours, you fancy gun or mod for a gun.
This is an interesting idea . How would you make it work in singleplayer games though? I can see people just hiding in a safe spot , leaving the console on and go do something else whilst not playing . I would like to see developpers do this though .
How many quests can you complete without saving?
When I die in Dynasty Warriors, even if it's 10 minutes, I turn off the console. I hate repeating stages.
Instead of minutes, quest timers.
 

Loonyyy

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Jul 10, 2009
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Crimson Lucario said:
That only applies to competitive FPS PLAYERS, not FPS games, death is meaningless in CoD for any but the hardcore and s&d players, domination and TDM aren't feard by the average player.
You seem to misunderstand me: By competitive FPS, I'm refering to games like Call of Duty, Counter Strike, Battlefield etc. I mean competitive as opposed to collaborative.

Now, if you're going to say that death is meaningless in CoD, or similar games, I'm going to have to disagree. Over the course of a game, if I progressively die more times than I accomplish something (Completing objectives, getting kills), I feel like I'm doing poorly. It matters to me, and most players. There's a reason people try to survive. The amount of times people spend trying to increase their KDR through boosting, or SPM through Capture Only modes demonstrates just how much people care. It's bragging rights, and it's the feeling of accomplishment that people work towards, the feeling that you're accomplishing MORE, and that you're doing better. It's empowerment through competition. Now, the individual death itself isn't important. I'm talking more about rates, in the mathematical sense, rather than the individual death for the life. Individual deaths don't usually matter, and the focus drifts from individual lifes to the overall match, and my play in general: Dying without accomplishing something isn't fun, or something most of us are proud of, so we avoid it: We try different tactics, we flank, we hide, whatever. Dying over and over is not fun, and it feels like we're getting nowhere. We're afraid of death, because frequent death represents a lack of ability to beat our enemies, and most of us are playing to have fun by beating our enemies. We want the most kills or captures to a life.

Now, as a person who's played Harcore SnD and Counter Strike in actual competitions (Not talking about genres now), mostly just semi-casual ladders, dying has an impact, but it's an extrinsic impact. I don't care about dying because I'm scared that my character's dying or my life is ending. It's entirely meta: I'm not doing my part for my team. I'm certainly forced into a different playstyle, but the mindset isn't really that different: I feel LESS effective. Now, I'll happily sacrifice a life in a match as a distraction, as long as it feels effective. So again, death in multiplayer FPS is usually about effectiveness. There's no easy way to implement this intrinsicly into the game, and I'm not sure you'd want to.

Why did I have to explain this to this level of detail? I'm sure you understand all of this, and I'm certain that you're smart enough to have extrapolated all of this? When did people stop reading between the lines?

I think it's a bad idea to try to add in more motivation not to die in competitive multiplayer FPS games. The fear of death in these games is based on the desire to do better, and heck, the entire genre's been building on the idea of kill streaks and other rewards for successful play, because players enjoy positive reinforcement, whilst artificially making death more terrifying simply annoys players: Particularly new players, who may be less skilled. Taking their experience on every death is bad (As an asside, the negative reinforcement will hurt the players who are doing worse, which fucks with the balance even more than usual). Making it harder on each death is bad. Heck, the hike back to battle on some games is bad enough, you can spend most of your match walking to the fight.
 

Crimson Lucario

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Aug 14, 2012
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Warning: Long Post
Loonyyy said:
Crimson Lucario said:
That only applies to competitive FPS PLAYERS, not FPS games, death is meaningless in CoD for any but the hardcore and s&d players, domination and TDM aren't feard by the average player.
You seem to misunderstand me: By competitive FPS, I'm refering to games like Call of Duty, Counter Strike, Battlefield etc. I mean competitive as opposed to collaborative.

Now, if you're going to say that death is meaningless in CoD, or similar games, I'm going to have to disagree. Over the course of a game, if I progressively die more times than I accomplish something (Completing objectives, getting kills), I feel like I'm doing poorly. It matters to me, and most players. There's a reason people try to survive. The amount of times people spend trying to increase their KDR through boosting, or SPM through Capture Only modes demonstrates just how much people care. It's bragging rights, and it's the feeling of accomplishment that people work towards, the feeling that you're accomplishing MORE, and that you're doing better. It's empowerment through competition. Now, the individual death itself isn't important. I'm talking more about rates, in the mathematical sense, rather than the individual death for the life. Individual deaths don't usually matter, and the focus drifts from individual lifes to the overall match, and my play in general: Dying without accomplishing something isn't fun, or something most of us are proud of, so we avoid it: We try different tactics, we flank, we hide, whatever. Dying over and over is not fun, and it feels like we're getting nowhere. We're afraid of death, because frequent death represents a lack of ability to beat our enemies, and most of us are playing to have fun by beating our enemies. We want the most kills or captures to a life.

Now, as a person who's played Harcore SnD and Counter Strike in actual competitions (Not talking about genres now), mostly just semi-casual ladders, dying has an impact, but it's an extrinsic impact. I don't care about dying because I'm scared that my character's dying or my life is ending. It's entirely meta: I'm not doing my part for my team. I'm certainly forced into a different playstyle, but the mindset isn't really that different: I feel LESS effective. Now, I'll happily sacrifice a life in a match as a distraction, as long as it feels effective. So again, death in multiplayer FPS is usually about effectiveness. There's no easy way to implement this intrinsicly into the game, and I'm not sure you'd want to.

Why did I have to explain this to this level of detail? I'm sure you understand all of this, and I'm certain that you're smart enough to have extrapolated all of this? When did people stop reading between the lines?

I think it's a bad idea to try to add in more motivation not to die in competitive multiplayer FPS games. The fear of death in these games is based on the desire to do better, and heck, the entire genre's been building on the idea of kill streaks and other rewards for successful play, because players enjoy positive reinforcement, whilst artificially making death more terrifying simply annoys players: Particularly new players, who may be less skilled. Taking their experience on every death is bad (As an asside, the negative reinforcement will hurt the players who are doing worse, which fucks with the balance even more than usual). Making it harder on each death is bad. Heck, the hike back to battle on some games is bad enough, you can spend most of your match walking to the fight.

I guess I misunderstood you then.
I get the more motivation is a bad idea, and I agree.
I also agree that under certain conditions deaths and KDR can be important as a whole, not just the individual death, in S&D, TDM and such just to name a few.
I also agree that having a negative KD can make you feel less effective and the whole feeling of accomplishment and bragging rights thing, I'm sometimes part of that too.
Sometimes, but usually not, usually death is still meaningless to me.

It's just that I made death part of my strategy and practically made it mandatory to die, or at least according to plan.
When death is part of your plan it becomes meaningless.
If I don't die enough I actually start feeling useless.

Maybe I need to give some more information about my strategy:
I only play kill confirmed, and rarely domination, I just don't enjoy other gamemodes .
My tactical grenade is always the Tactical Insertion (I even spend a prestige token for early unlock), I run up to a building or area with a couple enemies and place the TI in a location where it's safe but still close to the action and keep on rushing in the building until everybody is death, I place my TI so close to the action that I can kill them before they even reach my tag.
So I get a death, a kill and 2 tags, his and mine, and then I just repeat.
Lower KDs are here actually better then higher KDs, because thanks to the TI every death has a good potential of getting me my 250 point tag, so more deaths = more potential points = faster leveling and the TI prevents the enemy team from taking it (A minimum of 60% of the time they don't get my tag but I do, so this does work).
That and every time I die I press X and I'm back alive, death doesn't even a last a second so it feels completely meaningless.

Death may not be meaningless to some, but it definitely is to me, for good reasons.
 

Terminate421

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Jul 21, 2010
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rollerfox88 said:
Its just so slow, they just dont understand scary.
It's not supposed to be scary, it's supposed to be GRUESOME. Big difference. If your not "grossed out" fine then, but it's still a death done well.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Sober Thal said:
You already have that option, you're just ignoring it by calling it "You can rolepay or limit yourself" like it's a bad thing.
I love how more and more, game companies (and worse, gamers) are asking us to make our own fun with an entertainment medium.
 

ultrabiome

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Sep 14, 2011
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Terminate421 said:
Make it horrible:


Not make it repetitive or stupidly horrible, make it memorably horrible that it scars the player's psyche to AVOID dying.

Also, make actual punishment for death other than "spawn 50 feet away"
i can't see the video, but i know exactly what you mean from Dead Space. some of the deaths from normal enemies are gruesome, but relatively quick. but death from the final boss, you have no option but to watch and listen as issac is slowly torn apart, screaming, and eaten before you can reload. believe me, every time i failed was that much more incentive to win to avoid that unavoidable cutscene again.
 

DugMachine

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Apr 5, 2010
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Any game that strips you of your items or makes you restart a whole level scares me. CS does a decent job but you're bound to die in that game so don't even bother. Pretty sure Dark Souls does a decent job of it as well and while I may not fear death in skyrim i've gone on LOOOONG sessions of that game and forgetting to save... then I die. Yeah not getting those 3 hours back ever.
 

Nim

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Apr 5, 2012
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I quite like the way Runescape did it (maybe it still does). It takes away every item in your inventory plus whatever you happen to have equipped except (if I remember correctly) the three most valuable items. If you want them back you must rush to where you died and pick them up.

Mount and Blade has an interesting take on it, you don't die (well, I haven't been killed so far...), but in your unconscious state you are taken prisoner by those who defeated you and eventually dropped off somewhere. Alone and confused. Really makes you think twice before attacking a group larger than yours.

Taking away the option to load and save whenever I wish could work. I can only save when I quit playing. Or having a set number of places you are allowed to save, like those red papers in Silent Hill.

Just making the death scenes long or very disturbing might work, but only a few times. Eventually they become boring, no matter how disturbing they are. My experience with Dead Space went like this: "Well, that's pretty scary" -> "Cool! My legs flew off!" -> "This is just ridiculous." -> "Just let me load the game already."
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
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Well you could have ingame death carry some actual weight like it used to. Like in the original Diablo, if you didn't diligently save often and you died you could literally lose hours worth of progress. Now that's some weight, esp. considering how easy it was to get carried away and forget to save.
 

Icehearted

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Jul 14, 2009
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A permanent consequence. Way of the Samurai did this to me when I picked it up (Day 1), and I went in unprepared for what I was getting into. The fear that my newfound hard earned sword would go away forever? No, you can help yourselves from these ninjas, I'm spending the next few days hiding away from all of you.
 

Croaker42

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Feb 5, 2009
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JeffBergGold said:
Roguelike mechanics, you die your save file is wiped and start from scratch. I personally love the mechanic most people don't though. I can understand why.
Agreed. If you go into a game like this committed to the idea of 'character death is permanent' it could be a fun/exciting experience. I still feel a game like this could be competitive and exciting.