How come people who commit suicide are considered cowards, unless someone famous does it?

[Sniper Team 4]

Coward? No. I remember a line from The Last of Us where Ellie says, "It looks like they took the easy way out." Joel responds by saying, "Trust me, there's nothing easy about it." It takes a lot of nerve and courage to do something so against your very nature. We are hardwired to survive. To override that is not a sign of a coward.

That being said, I do think it is terribly selfish. I have a friend . One of her friends committed suicide back when we were in high school and it tore my friend up. I watched it eat at her as she asked herself what she did wrong, why didn't she see this coming, what she could have done differently. When someone commits suicide, to me they are saying they do not care about anyone else. They don't care about the grief they will cause their friends and family. They don't care that those people will stay awake at night, in some cases for the rest of the lives, wondering if they could have done something. That is selfish to me. Robin's daughter and wife will now have to live with this for the rest of their lives.

"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." I always remember that quote.


Now granted, there are exceptions. A truly hopeless situation--like locked away in a cell and forgotten about, or about to be burned alive and the only way out is jumping through a twenty story window--or if your body has grown so old and is slowly falling apart around you, then I can accept suicide.
But suicide because of depression? No. I do not think it is okay. Get help. Talk to friends. Talk to family. Talk to doctors. Talk to total strangers. Despite what you think, there is always something worth living for and someone who cares.

 

[Something Amyss]

Why do so many Escapist threads rely on a false premise?

I've spent the last day arguing with people over this on Facebook or clicking past articles on the selfishness or cowardice of suicide.

As for my opinion on suicide, I think it's a complicated issue because there are multiple factors. People who commit suicide are often mentally ill or pushed to limits most people can't comprehend or lack the empathy to be bothered trying to. It's not necessarily cowardice, but I think the larger problem is a desire to tar people with a broad brush.

 

[Blow_Pop]

A) How come people who commit suicide are considered cowards, unless someone famous does it?
B) Do you think people who commot suicide are cowards.
C) What is you're opinion on suicide?

A) Because people on the whole really DON'T understand depression and things that drive people to kill themselves. It's an invisible illness and there is this common misconception that you can just tell someone "well just be happier" and they should be able to get over whatever they are going through. When in reality it's so much bigger than that. And most of the time people who are depressed can't really even tell you WHY they are depressed. Celebrities are seen as "higher" than us "ordinary people" so when things like this happen to celebrities and such people take it harder because they get more attached to these famous people who we don't really know rather than the people that they should be more attached to (family, close friends, people they care about)

Spoiler: thanks to redlin this is now my new favourite video on depression

B) No I don't. Being on that side of the coin of almost killing myself more than once, I understand the mentality for it.
I also think whomever wrote this superman comic understands it too because it's a good comic on it

C) I see the allure of it. It's also selfish as hell. But then again, that's part of the nature of depression. My thoughts kind of align with this blog post. It's a terrible tragedy but also understandable. I go back and forth on if it's acceptable or not (mostly for myself and generalities for everyone else)

 

[Harpalyce]

B) I don't think they're cowards, I think they're weak.

...Seriously?

Not to offend anyone but it's my experience that people with depression either deal with it or kill themselves. And the second option isn't empowering by any definition of the word. There's nothing strong or noble in suicide. It's the choice for the weak of will. And I'd like to point out I'm referring to people suffering exclusively from that mental disorder.

...You do realize that half my point of the earlier post is that telling people "suicide is for the weak", you're going to just add to the pile of self-hatred that people with depression are weighed down by?

No, suicide isn't strong or noble, dying of cancer isn't strong or noble, but you can control your neurochemistry about as much as you can control your immune system that's supposed to edit out those cancerous cells - which is to say, when it's fucked, you're fucked, and thinking of puppies until you're better isn't something that works reliably (if it even works at all).

Have a little empathy, dude. Just hold off on telling suicidal people that they're weak. When you actually ARE suicidal, something like that is really damning and can push somebody off the edge. You don't know what burdens they're carrying, you don't know how hard they're fighting and how brave they've been. So maybe don't insult them, yeah?

 

[King Billi]

I recall hearing something, a study or something concerning suicide once. It suggested that in a large number of cases suicide is a decision made on impluse and that the the amount of steps they have to take to actually act on that impulse can affect whether or not they will actually go through with it. That if given long enough to think about what they're doing alot of people will actually choose not to go through with it.

I can't say whether this is true or not but I like to think that it is at least for most cases, I like to believe that given enough time and consideration most people will ultimately decide against ending their life. I understand this may be a rather naive belief to hold but since I can't put myself into the mind of someone who is truly suicidal and see what such utter despair truly feels like this is the best I can do.

 

[fletch_talon]

Because when we see it happen to someone like Robin Williams it comes as a wake up call.
Its easy to think that fighting depression is a case of will power and courage, that if you just try hard enough, you'll win. Robin Williams was an amazing person. By all accounts he was smart, kind and of course funny. He was also successful and no doubt had plenty of money throughout his career.
None of that mattered.
Despite all the good things in his life he couldn't make himself happy.

Those of us that are critical of people who resort to suicide are most likely doing so because we want to believe that depression can be fought.
People who think this way are often silenced at times like these. Its a big reminder that if he couldn't win the fight, in spite of money/resources/connections/success, what chance has anyone else got.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I'll probably catch hell for this, but screw it, I'm venting.

Honestly, I can't say I blame people for committing suicide. I get depressed. I get depressed to the point that my wrists ache. I can't afford psychiatrist visits, or the pills that they'll shove down my throat to try and fix me, that'll likely just make me gain weight. Been there, done that, pills failed.
Having someone reliable to talk to, and keep me happy helped way more. The internet helped way more. Not saying it's a magical cure all, but I'm happier being able to talk, and vent than getting doped up. Hell, I blame Ritalin(sp?) for grinding my imagination into dust back in the day.

I've considered suicide a great deal in my life, but I've talked myself out of it every time, obviously.

People act like there's some great fucking reward for toughing it out, and dying some other way, which may well be bullshit. What do people going through never ending pain getting out of going on, here? Who's going to guarantee life'll get better and worth living instead of worse? Why force people to take that gamble, and suffer years of pain, and maybe the rest of their life because life won't get better?
What if life doesn't get better for the people you talked out of it? How will you feel, then? What're you doing to make life better for the people you're talking out of it?

Sure, that might sound selfish, but you're asking people to put up with a hell of a lot, and for what? Possibly selfish reasons of your own, with little to no investment of your own?
What, in return for living in a private hell, do people get, here? If it ain't worth it, it just ain't. Remember, they're the one going through hell, not you. Sometimes because people say so, so what are you doing to make it worth their while?

I gotta figure out how to word what I'm about to say next. It's not easy, you see.
When dealing with someone that's suicidal, I gotta wonder, why do you want them to live? Especially if they're someone you've never personally met? Someone you don't know, or know what they're going through?
What gives someone the right to drag someone through hell on the off chance that something good will happen, and demand that the person trapped in depression suffer, potentially, for the rest of their lives in ways that the person who's had it good will likely never?

Not everyone wins at life. Not everyone gets married, has kids, has friends, a thriving social life, or any of that "good" stuff, aka normal shit people expect out of life.
Not everyone has it great in life. Hell, not everyone even makes it to normal, or average.
The way I see it, miracles are for the fortunate, and not everyone's fortunate.

Some people are burned, scarred, and hurt to the point they can't deal with other people. There's nothing that'll magically fix that for some.

I speak from experience on a lot of this, myself. Most everyone I've ever met, even just, just wanted to use me, abuse me, and/or give me hell. It was a relief, at times, when I moved to another state, another school, but that was short lived as the cycle just re-fucking-peated. And that was just growing up. My teen, and adult life's not a whole lot better. Something about me just screams to people that I should be made more miserable, and I don't exactly get repaid for my misery. There's nowhere enough good to put this crap into balance. There's definitely not enough people in my life to really improve things on a social level. There's assuredly no reset button to make me forget it all.
No, my soul is a ball of scar tissue, right now, and it has been for a very long time.

When someone gets treated badly for so long it can create a real fear of being social. Especially when it's often justified because, well, people just want to take, and belittle, and generally give someone hell and little, if anything else.

People wonder why I'm so negative. Ignorant, often dumbass, people who don't realize I'm often surrounded by people being negative to me, including themselves.
Treat someone like a monster, and you shouldn't be surprised they start acting like one.

I'm not looking for any pity, or crap like that, I'm just trying to offer some insight into what it can be like for people with depression. It's not something that magically gets fixed. In fact it often doesn't get fixed, just subdued, and it's often not cheap to do this.

In closing, I wanna say this with all sincerity, here:
Depression is a prison. A prison we all don't get to leave. Worse, yet, we're often in this prison for no particular reason. Basically, we're in jail and no crime was committed.

Or

Maybe think of it as being trapped in a crappy hospital room with the terminal disease called Life.

Honestly, you don't know what private hell people with depression go through. Some of it's bad enough that they have to escape hell. And believe me, I don't use the term "hell" lightly. If you can't understand why people want to get out of hell, then, well, that's on you, but I just ask that you try and understand they sought escape for a reason.

That ends my vent. I don't know, or care if it makes sense.

 

[default]

The majority of people aren't fucking stupid enough to think (or at least say) that suicide is cowardly. And if they do, they are a slimy little human being who cannot see past their own pathetic view on the world.

B) I don't think they're cowards, I think they're weak.

...Seriously?

Not to offend anyone but it's my experience that people with depression either deal with it or kill themselves. And the second option isn't empowering by any definition of the word. There's nothing strong or noble in suicide. It's the choice for the weak of will. And I'd like to point out I'm referring to people suffering exclusively from that mental disorder.

...You do realize that half my point of the earlier post is that telling people "suicide is for the weak", you're going to just add to the pile of self-hatred that people with depression are weighed down by?

No, suicide isn't strong or noble, dying of cancer isn't strong or noble, but you can control your neurochemistry about as much as you can control your immune system that's supposed to edit out those cancerous cells - which is to say, when it's fucked, you're fucked, and thinking of puppies until you're better isn't something that works reliably (if it even works at all).

Have a little empathy, dude. Just hold off on telling suicidal people that they're weak. When you actually ARE suicidal, something like that is really damning and can push somebody off the edge. You don't know what burdens they're carrying, you don't know how hard they're fighting and how brave they've been. So maybe don't insult them, yeah?

They might just take you with them if you push them hard enough, mate. Be careful with what you say to people who have nothing left to live for.

 

[Spambot 3000]

A) I don't really know if what you're saying is true or not, but let's just assume it is for the sake of keeping it simple. What I think may be the answer, is that it can be easy for someone to say 'suicide is for cowards' on another pseudo-philosophical Facebook debate as they're not really talking about a specific person, just about some faceless group - a statistic. When a famous person commits suicide (particularly one like Robin Williams, whom many know and love), it can suddenly be harder for those people to reflect the same attitude they had before as it's actually someone they know and admire this time that committed suicide instead of just another number. Of course, as others have mentioned, some individuals will still hold this opinion no matter who kills themselves.

B) No.

C) Everyone has (or at least, should have) just as much right to choose not to live as they do to live.

 

[jamail77]

snip

A) Simply not true. A fox news anchor was in trouble for calling Robin a coward and I know people on twitter were having a field day with this.

Isn't the fact that he got in trouble kinda prove what i was saying? Although, i'll admit i didn't know that before hand, i don't really follow fox news. I wonder if he would have gotten in trouble if it was just a random person :/

I'm pretty damn sure he would have gotten into massive trouble if it was someone who wasn't famous too. Maybe less inclined to get a lot of hate mail simply because the person who died wasn't in as many peoples hearts but calling someone who just died a coward on a news station is really insensitive and unprofessional.

krazykidd: I know a few people who last I checked, a few years ago when I was still in high school, have most definitely called famous and non-famous people alike who committed or attempted suicide cowards. One person in particular made such a statement on Facebook; he got a ton of likes and no disagreeing comments. I happen to think suicide is rarely if ever a cowardly or selfish decision when examined beyond a superficial level especially in cases of severe mental disorder when the person simply often can't act logically or emotionally to their troubles the way you would expect people without such mental disorders to do. I really wanted to call that particular person out. In the end, I figured it wasn't worth it. I know plenty of people who would have called him out on it, but they weren't Facebook friends with him. He lucked out of backlash by simply associating with certain people, what few people he knows who disagree, like me, most likely are the kind of people who decide against commenting.

I think this is a matter of who you surround yourself with, probably a mixture of confirmation bias and selection bias, something most of us are guilty of at some point. I have seen both scenarios happen whether the person is famous or not. As many have pointed out (and is probably getting redundant for you at this point) there was an abundance of people who seized this news to reiterate how annoying suicide is to them because all they see is a bunch of cowardly, selfish people. Saying these people get in trouble does not necessarily prove your point; it just shows how vocal personal matters of this kind can get among a group of people. Famous people tend to be better at making news and said news reaching more people versus any "normal" citizen since we don't know the "normal" citizen as intimately even if we know neither personally. So, you're more likely to see any particular opinion be voiced more loudly simply because it's being talked about more with the famous people.

Coward? No. I remember a line from The Last of Us where Ellie says, "It looks like they took the easy way out." Joel responds by saying, "Trust me, there's nothing easy about it." It takes a lot of nerve and courage to do something so against your very nature. We are hardwired to survive. To override that is not a sign of a coward.

Exactly. It's not an easy thing to do especially if you end up using a method that does not accomplish it instantly. People focus on the cowardly aspect of escaping life's problems without balancing it against how much nerve it takes to commit to suicide when you take out the factors that lead the person to it. Even if people acknowledge it they don't weigh the two trains of thought against each other.

That being said, I do think it is terribly selfish. I have a friend . One of her friends committed suicide back when we were in high school and it tore my friend up. I watched it eat at her as she asked herself what she did wrong, why didn't she see this coming, what she could have done differently. When someone commits suicide, to me they are saying they do not care about anyone else. They don't care about the grief they will cause their friends and family. They don't care that those people will stay awake at night, in some cases for the rest of the lives, wondering if they could have done something. That is selfish to me. Robin's daughter and wife will now have to live with this for the rest of their lives.

This is the line of reasoning I see all the time and I cannot help but disagree with it. As far as I know, I do not have any severe mental disorders to affect my mental state. I have however thought about suicide, both the idea of committing it myself and, separately, the idea of the concept and what it entails for others and what those who commit suicide have going on in their heads. I have never considered it as seriously as the kind of people we're talking about nor do I think about it anymore. When I take those experiences and thoughts into account along with what little research and discussion on suicide I've had I can very easily see the rationalization a lot of people come up with.

You have to understand that many of these people do think about what it will do to their loved ones. They often rationalize that their friends and family will heal with time and will be better off without them overall even if the friends and family would never think so. In my experience, the former is often true if exaggerated in the rationalization as few ever fully get over the deaths of those closest to them nor should they have to. Regardless, when your life is spiraling out of control, when you feel like a drain on everyone; people you worry you can never fully thank for their sacrifices; when you feel like you're not amounting to anything, when you see yourself as a person who wants to give, but feel selfish in your efforts because you are separated continents away and bureaucracies away from the most important issues all the while relatively lazying around or wasting time with your privileges rather than trying to get closer to the important issues, suicide seems like a viable option in your limited view. The world would be better off without you is what you think. I think often, if not always, it's only selfish if you look at it superficially.

The thing is life is not this hard thing: People are. People make life hard. People comprise society. People created the institutions that have let negative trends spiral out of control. If it weren't for people being people there'd be, for example, a natural disaster here and there, but with our progress a majority of the world could probably live comfortable lives with few real tragedies or hardships. So, you don't have to feel terrible for enjoying yourself or criticizing game publishers (so petty, focus on Gaza, is something some might think) because of what's going on in the world. You're enjoying your privileges to the fullest and, as we on this site should know very well, those privileges, things like video games, can end up teaching you and helping you in your pursuits to better the world and face your personal difficulties later. It's not selfish of you or lazy because you can't do everything and focus on these huge scale things. Trying to do it all often makes you less effective. Your life is no less meaningful just because of what you've got over others and what you aren't doing and who you feel you're hurting unintentionally. It's not just that you'll get through it and do what you want to do and that you matter to people enough that they sacrifice so much. What you have to take away is that your individual life matters. Life is life no matter how it happens or how much of it there is (over 7 billion people on this planet) and it will move on regardless of what is happening elsewhere, good or bad. You should live life as well as you can and hopefully everyone can one day move on to live life the way it is meant to be lived and not the perversion that is human suffering. That's what suicide rationalizers need to hear in a delicate way.

For people, who don't rationalize suicide in such a way and don't suffer from severe mental disorders, that's not something I can comment on honestly. I simply don't know how to approach such situations. In the end, it is their choice as an individual though. That does not mean we should not try to stop them. However, we have to consider what kindness really is though: We have to question whether we are honestly caring about the individuals themselves when we say what we say about these matters. One of my favorite thought experiments when I was younger was arguing with myself on whether kindness is really a thing. Do a lot of people not support others for that "good feeling"? Isn't that a selfish goal? You want to feel good. To be truly kind, you really don't get anything out of your generosity, even a good feeling. To keep this short, I concluded true kindness does exist, but it's on a very deep, difficult to understand level. It often starts out as selfishness though, so when someone says a person who committed suicide was selfish, I would not be surprised if their feelings were also motivated by some form of reactionary selfishness.



A good read for anyone who wants to see the case for suicide not being selfish can read this [http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish]. The source may be dubious on other matters, but I think it's mostly spot on here.

 

[chikusho]

Most people have a really hard time understanding depression and mental illness.
When someone commits suicide, most people will try to rationalize a nact that goes against human nature by putting the fault on the dead person. I mean, it's an easy target, he or she is not going to be able to explain or defend the act.

Also, as with all of lifes situations, you can count on Doug Stanhope to sort shit out.

 

[MetalShadowChaos]

Stages of grief I guess. At some point you may get angry at someone if they commit suicide for 'taking the easy way out' etc, but it's all part of grief. Moments like that are just like the moments of apologies, you find people to blame for death when it happens. You blame yourself, you blame other family members, you blame THEM. I don't think any rational human being could genuinely consider someone a 'coward' for committing suicide, because good god that takes a lot of fucking guts.

 

[loa]

You think it takes a coward to slice those wrists, pull that trigger or jump off that building?
I don't think many people have the nerve for that.

 

[BanicRhys]

I think suicide is a way for weak willed people to run away from their problems.

I just refrain from saying so every time it's mentioned because all it accomplishes is upsetting people (especially when it's a beloved celebrity), something the "omg rip in peace, you hero" crowd don't have to worry about.

I have been diagnosed with depression, I understand the perspective of someone in this position.

 

[zhoominator]

I think suicide is a way for weak willed people to run away from their problems.

I just refrain from saying so every time it's mentioned because all it accomplishes is upsetting people (especially when it's a beloved celebrity), something the "omg rip in peace, you hero" crowd don't have to worry about.

That's easy to say coming from an emotionally healthy person. If you got fired and were working in a skyscraper, why wouldn't you just decide to hurl yourself out a window. Don't kid yourself here, it isn't because you're noble or thinking about the people around you. It isn't because you are some brave person who will work through the problem. It's instinct. Every part of your brain is telling you NO, because the self-preservation instinct is an incredibly strong thing.

Until you have ever reached the point where your level of despair has reached the point where it overpowers even your most powerful of natural instincts, maybe then you can actually say whether it is cowardly or not. It is always the emotionally healthy who pass these judgements on those who are not, without any sense of empathy.

And that's what it's about. It isn't about heros or anything, it's just sad when somebody that people feel an emotional connection to (for many, Robin Williams was a huge part of their childhood) gets to a point where their mind goes to a place that allows them to do that.

People get upset because people like you still have these backward, ignorant notions of depression as if it is merely "having problems" or "feeling a bit blue". It is a mental illness, which affect people like any other kind. You can no more tell a paralysed person to just get over their problems than you can a clinically depressed person. They may make it through, they may not, but either way they need support. That's why comments like yours upset people. You say committing suicide is cowardly, but I say kicking someone while they're down is far more so and ignorance and laziness is not an excuse for that.

 

[Verlander]

A) How come people who commit suicide are considered cowards, unless someone famous does it?

The same people who think those that commit suicide is cowardly, don't differentiate. They're assholes through and through. If they don't, they're hypocritical assholes.

B) Do you think people who commit suicide are cowards.

No. Honestly, the idea of killing myself is the most terrifying thing.

C) What is you're opinion on suicide?

See kids, suicide is bad, m'kay?

 

[hazydawn]

Snip

Thanks for that. I think people are just socially conditioned to say all that bullshit for the most time. There is no other opinion regarded as sane by most people and they've adapted to it. On a whole I'd say this has emerged because humans need to feel that their life has some transcendental value THAT CAN NEVER BE QUESTIONED so that they feel better about their lives in this (of itself) meaningless sandbox. Others very well can't even imagine being unhappy and miserable for most of their time.

Hope I didn't make you more depressed with this :0

 

[Bertylicious]

Of course suicide is cowardly and selfish. Depressed people know how cowardly, selfish and shitty they are, that's why they want to commit suicide.

It's ironic really; theoretically the best way to stop being depressed is to form relationships and foster a stable, loving, home but then you're surrounded by people you care about whose lives you're contaminating with your cowardly, selfish, shitty, nature. I say theoretically 'cause there's no cure for depression. It's a part of you.

Personally I've always thought suicide is like trying to put out a fire with petrol. Much better to live a life of hermitage.

 

[VyseRogueKing]

I think suicide is a way for weak willed people to run away from their problems.

I just refrain from saying so every time it's mentioned because all it accomplishes is upsetting people (especially when it's a beloved celebrity), something the "omg rip in peace, you hero" crowd don't have to worry about.

Any form of torture if long enough and cruel enough will reduce the strongest of wills to dust. Depression isn't really a problem it's a chemical imbalance in the brain that forces you to be sad and the longer this goes on the more you will see that it's somehow your fault and then beat yourself up for it. In this particular case it's even noted that he has sought help but even that wasn't enough. That takes a lot of strength because the rational mind works really poorly when experiencing any form of sorrow.

Having suffered through depression at the hands of anxiety med side-effects I can tell you it freaking sucks. In the span of half a year it turned me into a enfeebled mess who ended up unable to leave my bed except to eat when it feels like my stomach would eat itself if I didn't. Some people aren't even so lucky. I didn't even know what the feeling was because never experienced it before in my life but it sapped away at me even before the bedridden state no matter how good a day was the moment I was left to my thoughts it all disappeared into self-inflicted psychological torture and then that would make the next day harder. Suffice to say it all spiraled downward.

I count myself lucky that all I had to do was stop taking a pill to get better. Other people suffer through this their entire lives and I could barely handle a half year of it. It isn't a matter of weak will it's more of a fact that their will has been broken having fought a long battle to no avail.

TLDR those who experience depression are experiencing a form of torture most people never experience. It destroys rational thought, it eats their mind, and crushes their will. Suicide is the end result of not receiving enough help in enough time. It cannot be overcome easily. Please instead of realizing it offends people think about why it offends people because it's still insensitive to think poorly of someone when you don't understand their strife.

OT:
1) People who say people who commit suicide are cowards don't understand that the victim has suffered some significant emotional trauma that most of us could never dream of.

2) Hell no. I only wish that they could have been saved in time but it's never that easy.

3) It's terrible. No one should willingly take their lives. It may seem like it's the only way to be free of pain and maybe they see it as doing a service to the world but it only hurts those they care for and throws away everything including a chance however slim to overcome whatever caused their pain. I can only wish that whatever the next life is that it be free of pain so they can live on in peace.

 

[BanicRhys]

I don't think people who kill themselves should be demonised or painted as failures, I just believe that it takes a certain amount of strength to hold on to hope that life will get better, even when things are at their worst.

coming from an emotionally healthy person.

I won't bother you with some sob story about my state of mind, I'll just say that your assumption of my mental health is wrong.

Now, having said that, please don't proceed to belittle my problems because my opinion on this matter differs from yours.

people because it's still insensitive to think poorly of someone when you don't understand their strife.

Same goes for you.