How could Disney redeem itself from The Last Jedi?

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Okay, I'm gonna be blunt here:

I feel like the backlash against The Last Jedi is a display of autism, the depth and scope of which I find nearly impossible to comprehend. I don't think any one of three new Star Wars movies is a masterpiece (But then... I don't think any Star Wars movie aside from New Hope is a masterpiece period, but I digress) but I will say that they've been getting better with each movie and I will say that Last Jedi is the one that came the closest to greatness.

Force Awakens was, overall, a pretty dull affair. It had decent characters but the story had almost no interesting elements whatsoever, Snoke was a generic menacing figure on a throne, Rey was so obviously implied to be the daughter of Luke that any mystery surrounding her would inevitably end in a letdown and there was no sense of mystery or intrigue that it managed to establish. That Last Jedi managedd to take all of this stuff and make, and I totally stand by that, one of the best Star Wars movies yet out of it is very close to a miracle.

I literally don't get what people are so angry about. In a way it reminds of a smaller, pettier version of GamerGate where all legitimite grievances people might have seem to take a backseat behind a lot of uncomfortably political posturing. There's this hilariously stupid fan edit floating around on the web, someone has probably brought it up by now that... cuts all the female characters from the movie or whatever and while I'm not saying that weird hate campaign against the movie is a sexism thing it certainly seems to be for some people.

Autism in general is prevelent in modern geekdom/fandoms.

Look at Rick and Morty, Undertale, Five Nights at Freddys, Sonic.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Look at Rick and Morty, Undertale, Five Nights at Freddys, Sonic.

I'd rather not.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Look at Rick and Morty, Undertale, Five Nights at Freddys, Sonic.

I'd rather not.

Just giving examples of how autism/aspergers is prevelent in these fandoms. And DON'T get me started on Bronies but for fun, have a cringy laugh at this guy:

 

[Zontar]

I literally don't get what people are so angry about.

It's a lot of things, honestly naming what worked in the movie would be less time consuming then naming what didn't, since it was basically the cinematography, music and special effects.

The movie goes out of its way to take a dump on the legacy of the ones that came before it, goes out of its way to make empty deconstructions and subversion of expectations (without realising you need to actually have something of substance there for those things to work), ruins one of the most popular characters in pop culture (in a way that is completely inconsistent with how that character acts and anyone who claims otherwise didn't watch the original trilogy) to name but a few of the major problems the movie has.

To put it simply, there's a reason why the movie is a critical failure where audiences either hate it or don't think it's that bad, but no one actually loves it outside of the critic bubble, and it made both Rogue One and the Prequels look better by comparison. I personally can't comprehend why someone would like this movie, it has nothing going for it. China showed us people who aren't familiar with Star Wars think its bad as a movie on its own, while the Western release has shown us that people who are familiar with Star Wars think it's bad as a Star Wars movie.

Here's a guy who isn't Sargon (so no reason to pretend there's something wrong with it because I guess liberals can't analyse movies?)

 

[Canadamus Prime]

They can't because...
Edit: Damnit The embedding didn't work right. It's supposed to start at 4:34

 

[Arnoxthe1]

It's kinda neat seeing people defend story-telling and direction of this...quality.

But, hey, Transformers makes a billion plus every time, so I suppose I should expect this.

This is what I find really funny about almost all the criticism of TLJ. The people who don't like it seem to always put Epi. 4-6 on a damn pedestal. Like they're just the definition of perfection. Just a small reality check for you guys. Episode 6 gave us teletubby teddy bears somehow unironically fighting off a superior-in-every-way military force with the power of rocks and friendship.

They can't because...
Edit: Damnit The embedding didn't work right. It's supposed to start at 4:34

Copy and paste this into brackets instead: youtube=GpmgP9DcOU8 start=274

 

[Zontar]

This is what I find really funny about almost all the criticism of TLJ. The people who don't like it seem to always put Epi. 4-6 on a damn pedestal. Like they're just the definition of perfection. Just a small reality check for you guys. Episode 6 gave us teletubby teddy bears somehow unironically fighting off a superior-in-every-way military force with the power of rocks and friendship.

The reason that 4-6 are put on a pedestal are twofold.

First is the fact that 4 is pretty damn timeless and 5 is pretty much a perfect movie.

Second is the fact that the prequels have made people better appreciate 6 for what it was, since it wasn't perfect but it was at least competently written.

Now there's a new wave of popularity for the prequels since while they had a horrible execution they had a brilliant story they where trying to tell, which is more then you can say about the sequels which have a horribly execution for a terrible story. The music, effects and cinematography are literally the only things the sequels have that are of an acceptable quality.

It's not even that Disney is inherently the issue, Rogue One didn't suffer many of these problems. Which is saying something given that movie's production was a nightmare. Or maybe Star Wars needs to have nightmarish productions to give us something good?

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Double down on everything people like Sargon hate. Make Poe Dameron go through gender-transition, make Finn gay and have him turn Kylo ren to the side of good through a romance between the two, make Rose the new general of the resistance, introduce a character who is Luke's former male lover, imply that Leia cuckolded Han Solo, turn the Millenium falcon into a porg shelter, have Rey become a more powerful Jedi than Yoda, imply that Jar Jar Binks and Obi-Wan were seecretly married, give commander Hux the face of Pepe the frog, and most importantly, end every scene with a character drinking green titty-milk

EDIT: Also, Rose discovers that she is the lost daughter of Admiral Holdo, and colours her hair pink to honour her memory

 

[BreakfastMan]

Double down on everything people like Sargon hate. Make Poe Dameron go through gender-transition, make Finn gay and have him turn Kylo ren to the side of good through a romance between the two, make Rose the new general of the resistance, introduce a character who is Luke's former male lover, imply that Leia cuckolded Han Solo, turn the Millenium falcon into a porg shelter, have Rey become a more powerful Jedi than Yoda, imply that Jar Jar Binks and Obi-Wan were seecretly married, give commander Hux the face of Pepe the frog, and most importantly, end every scene with a character drinking green titty-milk

Hot damn, now THAT sounds like a movie. I would watch the hell out of that.

 

[Asita]

I don't see them as needing to redeem themselves from it. Yeah, it has issues that it should avoid repeating (*glares at the casino world*), but at worst the movie was sub-par rather than an egregiously misstep. "What could the next movie do better" is a fair question. "How can Disney redeem themselves" suggests that TLJ was far worse than it actually was.

 

[Kyman102]

mply that Leia cuckolded Han Solo

Imply?

 

[Mechamorph]

Alright, lets cut to the chase and say what would redeem Disney in our eyes with regards to the handling of The Last Jedi.

For me it would be for them to down a billion dollars on getting those 100 episodes of Underworld made. No modifications, no censorship, no changes, the episodes that the group of writers that Lucas got together, as intended.

So what'd it be for you?

Coming soon to Netflix: The X-Wing Series. Starring Nathan Fillion as Wedge Antilles.

Coming to a theatre near you: The Thrawn Trilogy.

As an aside, one internet friends asked me why the Chinese did not seem to connect with Rose in the Last Jedi. My answer is simple; Identity Politics is pretty weak in East Asia (and the upper classes have a contempt for it) but Nationalist Politics is a fact of life. Trying to sell a movie with an "Asian actress" to the Chinese market is useless when the actress is Vietnamese (descended). We can tell the difference you know. At least Rogue One had Donnie Yen who is a bona fide film star in China.

 

[Kyman102]

Also, for all the talk about the Expanded Universe... I never read ALL of it, but I remember a lot of it being hit-and-miss.

I also laughed at the people saying "And then Disney declared a lot of EU stuff non-canon except for the bits they got to pick and choose..."

As if that's not how it worked with Lucas. Be honest. The EU was always fanfiction that got to pretend it was sorta-canon until Lucas said otherwise.

Two cases thereof:

1. Remember the Bounty Hunter War series? Decent books, had a lot of explanations for the past of Boba Fett and where he got his gear- And now Attack of the Clones is out, and turns out Boba Fett was a clone of a lackluster Fett Prime and Boba got his ship, his aesthetic, and his gear from his clone papa.

2. Remember the amazing Genndy Tartakovsky Clone Wars cartoon? Slick animation, showed the Clone Troopers being awesome, had General Grievous being amazing? Surely this will be- And Lucas has put his stamp on a CGI Clone Wars cartoon that declared pretty much everything about the Tartakovsky miniseries non-canon.

Yeah, the EU was never really canon. They just got little pins that read "I can pretend I'm canon until I'm not"

 

[Natemans]

Nothing really. I kinda loved the Last Jedi and the only thing I want is hope Episode IX is good too.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I literally don't get what people are so angry about.

It's a lot of things, honestly naming what worked in the movie would be less time consuming then naming what didn't, since it was basically the cinematography, music and special effects.

The movie goes out of its way to take a dump on the legacy of the ones that came before it, goes out of its way to make empty deconstructions and subversion of expectations (without realising you need to actually have something of substance there for those things to work), ruins one of the most popular characters in pop culture (in a way that is completely inconsistent with how that character acts and anyone who claims otherwise didn't watch the original trilogy) to name but a few of the major problems the movie has.

To put it simply, there's a reason why the movie is a critical failure where audiences either hate it or don't think it's that bad, but no one actually loves it outside of the critic bubble, and it made both Rogue One and the Prequels look better by comparison. I personally can't comprehend why someone would like this movie, it has nothing going for it. China showed us people who aren't familiar with Star Wars think its bad as a movie on its own, while the Western release has shown us that people who are familiar with Star Wars think it's bad as a Star Wars movie.

Here's a guy who isn't Sargon (so no reason to pretend there's something wrong with it because I guess liberals can't analyse movies?)

Okay, I can't stand idle anymore. I've seen your past posts Zontar and I feel there is something to address but I will get to it later

First, On topic as to why people like this movie. Because the old narratives of Star Wars, the classic monomyth and hero's journey, is getting repetitive. Like, Ray may not be that special in terms of characterization or personality but the point was that she is not special, that she was merely granted the ability at random by the universe/force and choose to be on one side of a conflict. Kylo's debate and comment of "let the past die, kill it if you have to" resonates with the film's belief that the old narrative and hero's journey is insufficient. Having Kylo be a force that seeks destruction of the old is more compelling than the idea of a galactic empire fighting rebellion plot. As for the Luke issue, the main point of his change was that time has passed and the idealism that filled his youth has been tempered down due to past experiences and realizations.

The Rose thing is an issue i have as is the Casino planet but I do feel on average, the film skewers the idea of the lone hero and ace pilot themes.

As for the off topic, I feel like i need to comment on behavior being done by you Zontar. Having seen your past posts, I find that you want a level of stasis in media, to have media unchanged and unchallenged whether it's 40K or Star Wars regardless of reasons given well constructed or otherwise. You seem to make a clear divide between fan and non-fan despite the fact that being a fan of something is a spectrum that spans different levels of critical nature and consumption. Finally, you seem to be very politically disposed to one side without the ability to step back and see the other side, a flaw that I will admit I still have.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I feel like the backlash against The Last Jedi is a display of autism, the depth and scope of which I find nearly impossible to comprehend. /

I literally don't get what people are so angry about.

...you don't see any issues with how it handled the mythic moments from TFA, or any of its teased plot threads? Or Holdo's 'plan'? Or the way the film gutlessly reverses its potentially brilliant - and genuinely subversive - path (Jedi and Sith/Dark Side = baaaaad, end both) within the same fuckin' scene? Or how the film spins its wheels so hard it ends up with the status quo at the end? Or how Rose's intent was batshit lunacy in every possible sense (I did really like her line about love/hate, but almost killing yourself Because Reasons whilst stopping a guy about to potentially save lots of lives is just--- ugh... brain frying)? Or Leia going all Mary Poppins' [y'all]?

I generally don't like to be on the side that contains alt-righters, MRA's, 'gaters, and so on, but you really don't have to get triggered by its non-existent progressive or '[modern?] feminist' values to think TLJ was some kind of cinematic mishap.

I admired some of the ideas Rian went for - on paper, in theory, in principle. But the execution? Jeese.

To be fair I do need to see it again. I either need to figure out that I really do loathe it, I don't loathe it enough, or possibly that I might grow to not-loathe/like it...

I don't think any one of three new Star Wars movies is a masterpiece (But then... I don't think any Star Wars movie aside from New Hope is a masterpiece period, but I digress) but I will say that they've been getting better with each movie and I will say that Last Jedi is the one that came the closest to greatness.

A lot of ANH is about as nonsensically hokey as the prequels, so I very much disagree with it somehow standing out.

First, On topic as to why people like this movie. Because the old narratives of Star Wars, the classic monomyth and hero's journey, is getting repetitive.

Roight... and ending the film with a Bad Guy wielding a red saber wanting to kill people, against a Good Guy Gal with a blue saber fighting with the rebels is so radically new?

I loved the idea of Luke and Ren ostensibly rejecting Light and Dark as one, just from different perspectives. But even Luke can't commit to that idea, just like the damn film itself can't (as Rich Evans quips; the twist is that there is no twist... Ren slays Snoke, offers Rey a team-up to dismantle the old guard, and then thinks, 'fuck it, I'll just be the Big Bad, then').

Having Kylo be a force that seeks destruction of the old is more compelling than the idea of a galactic empire fighting rebellion plot.

Except that's ostensibly exactly what we have at the end. Some characters are dead, but no one's really learnt anything, and it's the same-old same-old from '77. Baddies vs goodies Because Reasons.

/edit

After having listened to about 15mins of that Dishonoured Wolf guy... I think I take it all back.

So long as it trolls misogynist, possibly racist, triggered little man-children like him, I can deal with SW going off the rails.

Wow. That guy's something, alright. I suppose it's hyperbolic shitferbrains like him who've been brainwashing even dumber 'men' into thinking that Holdo's some kind of archetypal feminist. I was having an exchange with such a nomark on YT the other day, and I honestly couldn't believe he really saw her as being evidence of pesky feminism. But apparently yes; being a woman with dyed hair = feminist... That's the extent of their understanding of it. No wonder they're losing the self-created culture war if they're scared of such radical non-conformist notions as different coloured hair.

 

[Zontar]

First, On topic as to why people like this movie. Because the old narratives of Star Wars, the classic monomyth and hero's journey, is getting repetitive. Like, Ray may not be that special in terms of characterization or personality but the point was that she is not special, that she was merely granted the ability at random by the universe/force and choose to be on one side of a conflict. Kylo's debate and comment of "let the past die, kill it if you have to" resonates with the film's belief that the old narrative and hero's journey is insufficient. Having Kylo be a force that seeks destruction of the old is more compelling than the idea of a galactic empire fighting rebellion plot. As for the Luke issue, the main point of his change was that time has passed and the idealism that filled his youth has been tempered down due to past experiences and realizations.

This may have had a point if it wasn't for the fact the movie was a steaming pile. And also didn't use deconstruction and subversion of expectations as an excuse for telling the fans "fuck the old stuff" and investors "fuck your future potential profits" in the name of telling a bad story.

If you're going to do something different, for god sake doing well enough to justify not doing what people paid money to see. Rian failed, to a degree even Lucas never managed with the prequels.

As for the off topic, I feel like i need to comment on behavior being done by you Zontar. Having seen your past posts, I find that you want a level of stasis in media, to have media unchanged and unchallenged whether it's 40K or Star Wars regardless of reasons given well constructed or otherwise.

You really haven't if you think that. My stance on 40K is literally "don't change it to appease people who aren't even part of the community at the expense of those that are". You literally cannot interpret my praise of 8th edition in a way that makes it seem like I want media to be unchanged or unchallenged. What I hate is shit, shit that's shit in quality and shit that overtly insults the fans. Star Trek Discovery, The Last Jedi, these are not good works in their own right and made even worst by their connection to franchises that those who made them clearly want nothing to do with.

What I want is quality, something the people who seem to somehow get into these positions don't. I want a post-Voyager Star Trek series, I want a Star Wars movie that isn't outright insulting me for liking Star Wars, I want 40K to move forward in an internally logical way with how the setting is.

None of that is static or stagnant, how you seem to think it is is beyond me.

Finally, you seem to be very politically disposed to one side without the ability to step back and see the other side, a flaw that I will admit I still have.

Not really sure what that means, the view of TLJ isn't really a partisan one. Liberals and conservatives are in agreement that it's shit, in fact the only praise I've seen form it are from people who hate both those ideologies.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

This is what I find really funny about almost all the criticism of TLJ. The people who don't like it seem to always put Epi. 4-6 on a damn pedestal. Like they're just the definition of perfection. Just a small reality check for you guys. Episode 6 gave us teletubby teddy bears somehow unironically fighting off a superior-in-every-way military force with the power of rocks and friendship.

If expecting a basic level of coherence in a story is akin to "putting something on a pedestal" then, sure. Especially since it's been 40 years and they've actually got a firm bedrock to work on now in terms of both lore and an established fanbase.

But hey. Sorry my bar is a little bit higher than yours?

Now, were the ewoks silly? Yes. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? I'd say yes.

Was Holdo's subplot silly? Yes. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? No.

Why are you lot so quick to excuse this film's blatant narrative/lore failures? I mean, fuck, my 11-year-old niece picked out the big ones immediately.

If it were anything but Star Wars, would it be getting this much in the way of defense (or, to be fair, hostility)? I highly fuckin doubt it.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

If expecting a basic level of coherence in a story is akin to "putting something on a pedestal" then, sure. Especially since it's been 40 years and they've actually got a firm bedrock to work on now in terms of both lore and an established fanbase.

But hey. Sorry my bar is a little bit higher than yours?

Now, were the ewoks silly? Yes. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? I'd say yes.

Was Holdo's subplot silly? Yes. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? No.

Why are you lot so quick to excuse this film's blatant narrative/lore failures? I mean, fuck, my 11-year-old niece picked out the big ones immediately.

If it were anything but Star Wars, would it be getting this much in the way of defense (or, to be fair, hostility)? I highly fuckin doubt it.

No, I don't think the ewoks made sense even in context (As much as I don't care for them, why didn't they just have wookies?), but hey, I'm not here to slam Ep. 4-6. And also, I know that TLJ had problems. No argument from me there. The throne room scene for example was particularly egregious. But comparing it to all the main entry Star Wars movies we've had thus, I think it's pretty darn good. It's no KotOR 2 but it's definitely something. And I say all this as a very critical movie-goer. Trust me on that one.

 

[GalanDun]

Well, first off they could pull a reverse Superman II and get George Lucas or J.J. Abrams to re-shoot and re-cut Episode VIII so it doesn't suck. I expect the Ron Howard and Abrams-led Star Wars films to be good, but a lot of it has to do with pulling in EU stuff and acknowledging that they're adapting it instead of just stealing from it.