How do you reason with religious people?
- Thread starter YukoValis
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Basically, your friend needs to relax, because we're all busy bees buzzing about what God approves and doesn't approve of(I personally, especially being Christian, want Westboro to catch fire, fall over, and sink into a swamp). God already covered this: Romans 11:34 ?For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?? aka God knows what God wants, and only Him. People trying to squeeze out nonsense from biblical passages 2000+ years later, who feel they are a life and death authority on those words, are idiots.YukoValis said:
First of all, I'm an atheist. I'm an informed atheist. I was raised christian, but even as a child I didn't believe a thing of it. After a while, my family left the church.
I spent time thinking about it. And I like to think there's more to it. But I'm absolutely sure that whatever is worshipped now cannot be it.
I started reading Hitchens, Dawkins. Watched TV, George Carlin, Bill Maher's doing some good in weekly balanced debates.
You will never disuade a true believer. It all falls back to Mysterious ways etc. so don't bother.
My girlfriend is agnostic, she's just not sure, and that's fine.
And my conclusion and, well worldview I guess, is that people can just practice religion. That's fine. But at home or at a church/temple/synagogue/mosque or whatever. If you keep it there then everyone is happy.
About WBC, I believe that everyone has an epiphany in their life. A moment of absolute clarity. In which they realised everything they've done and see it in context. I hope that mr. Phelps will have his soon. And apologise to all those who he's harmed.
Also, how is that guy a Democrat? I thought the Republicans were the religious ones?
And to end with a nice quote.
Can omniscient God, who Knows the future, find The omnipotence to Change His future mind?
- Karen Ownens
I spent time thinking about it. And I like to think there's more to it. But I'm absolutely sure that whatever is worshipped now cannot be it.
I started reading Hitchens, Dawkins. Watched TV, George Carlin, Bill Maher's doing some good in weekly balanced debates.
You will never disuade a true believer. It all falls back to Mysterious ways etc. so don't bother.
My girlfriend is agnostic, she's just not sure, and that's fine.
And my conclusion and, well worldview I guess, is that people can just practice religion. That's fine. But at home or at a church/temple/synagogue/mosque or whatever. If you keep it there then everyone is happy.
About WBC, I believe that everyone has an epiphany in their life. A moment of absolute clarity. In which they realised everything they've done and see it in context. I hope that mr. Phelps will have his soon. And apologise to all those who he's harmed.
Also, how is that guy a Democrat? I thought the Republicans were the religious ones?
And to end with a nice quote.
Can omniscient God, who Knows the future, find The omnipotence to Change His future mind?
- Karen Ownens
Personally I think people should learn to separate between people in the religion, and the religion itself. I mean really just because a single person, or one small group does something doesn't mean that everyone of the religion is bad, it just means that one person or that one group is bad.
Oh, yeah... your friend's stubbornness is definitely due to him being religious...
Great going, OP.
EDIT:
OT: Like you'd reason with anyone else, using logic.
Great going, OP.
EDIT:
OT: Like you'd reason with anyone else, using logic.
That is a difficult question. Religion by definition is the institutionalization of belief in something that does not need proof, reason or logic. So from birth, these people are taught that it is a good thing to blindly believe in something you have no proof for, and to be very emotional about that belief.
The best advice i have for you, is to ask your friend to stop treating his own religion as something sacred, untouchable, absolute, in an argument, but rather treat it like he treats your rational arguments. Personal feelings are left at the door in a rational argument (Or are clearly identified and explained as emotional bias, at least), and all sides should be looked at equally critical, including your own.
The best advice i have for you, is to ask your friend to stop treating his own religion as something sacred, untouchable, absolute, in an argument, but rather treat it like he treats your rational arguments. Personal feelings are left at the door in a rational argument (Or are clearly identified and explained as emotional bias, at least), and all sides should be looked at equally critical, including your own.
Pull Socrates on them. Give them a few "for the sake of argument" points which they can agree with and lead them into contradicting them selfs. You must base your argument on the assumption that what they believe is true because they will not be able to accept any other argument.
When arguing with a religous person, never start arguing weither god exists or not if thats not what the argument is about.
Depends.
Are we talking hyper relgious zealot who ignores logic and reason, or relgious person who still has common sense?
If it's the former, just don't even bother.
Are we talking hyper relgious zealot who ignores logic and reason, or relgious person who still has common sense?
If it's the former, just don't even bother.
People here seem to be going a little off topic from the actual question.
To deal with that particular person you'll have to just send him a few links and maybe explain a few things, if he still doesn't get it tell him he's being unreasonable and that you have better things to do with your time than make him listen or agree to anything without his intention.
Until he can act reasonably, just don't bother and end the conversation, you're not likely to reason with anyone who won't allow it.
To deal with that particular person you'll have to just send him a few links and maybe explain a few things, if he still doesn't get it tell him he's being unreasonable and that you have better things to do with your time than make him listen or agree to anything without his intention.
Until he can act reasonably, just don't bother and end the conversation, you're not likely to reason with anyone who won't allow it.
The most important thing is to remember to never get angry back. Always try to keep a level head. You have to make sure to control the conversation. Whenever he starts to detour about anything, even if it's a different point on the same subject, bring him back on track. A lot of religious people in arguments will move on to different points as soon as you present them with a response to something they said or when you ask them a question. Control the conversation.YukoValis said:
Also, when you first start the conversation, make them define what they believe. If you don't make them define what they believe, they'll keep moving the flag on you, if you know what I mean. You'll present some fallacy with something they said and they'll respond, "Oh that's what god is really like." But if you make them define their beliefs, they can't do that on you.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
I highly recommend that wiki if you're looking for how to respond to most of the arguments that believers will throw at you. Good luck, let us know how it goes if it comes up again.
There is no vast chaos to Life, the Universe, and Everything anymore. 6x7=42Cowabungaa said:
C'mon people, grab your towel and let's hitch a ride to the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
OT:
Best way to talk to your friend is tell him point blank that he's avoiding the situation and question and responding with ignorance with hate toward you. Tell him if he continues to INSULT you, then he's being a very poor friend. Tell him you're not attacking him, and that you just want him to understand what's going on. Explain what's going on, show him google caches of godhatesfags.com and other WBC websites. Show him the interview with Anon and WBC. The creepy lady's smile should make him very uncomfortable. (I know it made me uncomfortable!) And just make your case slowly. If you can talk to him like that without him attacking you, you'll be able to get through to him. Tell him to STOP if he starts attacking you again, and then say "If you're going to attack me and act hateful while I'm trying to explain my point of view to you, then I'm going to say we end this completely, and never speak of it again." if you want to keep your friendship. If he's pissed you off too much, say "Sorry, if you're going to continue being hateful while I'm just trying to explain why these people are atrociously hateful, then you're too much like them to be a friend of mine." and walk away.YukoValis said:
Good luck, I hope you can keep your friend.
I usually don't. I remember what it felt like to be very religious and there is no way in hell that they[footnote]Those who are more devout than the everyday Christian.[/footnote] will ever listen to science over faith. They really won't. When I was religious the thought never even crossed my mind that it could all be BS, and my idea of an "Atheist" when I was religious was someone who's an idiot and has no goal in life and is just being a rebel.
Relativity is everything
Relativity is everything
