How do you reason with religious people?

[Nieroshai]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

 

[ultimateownage]

The majority of my friends are atheists, and I have a hell of a time reasoning with them. Religion and Atheism are just beliefs, and it's hard to reason with anybody who has a belief. It's how humanity works, double standards- when you say your beliefs they call you out for trying to push your beliefs on to them and when you don't listen to them pushing their beliefs on you they call you narrow minded and ignorant.

 

[Nimcha]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

 

[Ghengis John]

Well, your friend's just an idiot, that doesn't have anything to do with him being religious.

Bravo sir. You said all that had to be said in the first response.

 

[THE M3RCENARY]

I'm a Christian myself.
I tend to keep it to myself unless someone brings it up.

 

[Alphakirby]

Well, your friend's just an idiot, that doesn't have anything to do with him being religious.

Bravo sir. You said all that had to be said in the first response.

^ Both of these. No matter what your religion is,agreeing with the WBC is a bad idea,with all the hate and propaganda the WBC spew on a regular basis,each of them will have an unpleasant surprise when they meet their fates.

 

[9Darksoul6]

To put it simply:
1- Any communicative process needs same core-concepts/axioms/dogmas on both sides. Dialog is a form of communication. In order to fully dialog with an entity, both of you need to admit in the same doctrinal things.
2- Atheists dogmatically believe that God doesn't exist. Christians dogmatically believe that God exists.
3- The existence/non-existence of God is a question chained to so many other concepts that it nearly becomes impossible to dialog with someone who disagrees with you on that point.

R: The only way I see for an Atheist and a Christian to discuss something without being offensive to each other is by either:
a) avoiding any concept chained to "God" (as a concept).
or
b) one embracing the other one's beliefs (even if only on an hypothetical level).

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Does not sound like a religious problem, just a problem with him. I am quite religious my self (Christian if that helps) and I disagree with the WBC completely. Their views are that of the dark ages.

Though it does sound like it is more to do with your friend than "religious people". We aren't all bad, just those extremists and you friend sounds like he has joined the "extremist club".

(sorry if this causes offence)

 

[Nieroshai]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

 

[Lilani]

Disclaimer: I know these types of posts are frowned upon, but this is made not to troll, and I don't want a flame war. This is an honest question asking for help, and I ask to PLEASE keep it clean.:

It started when I told my religious friend about the whole WBC vs Anon thing.. to my shock he seemed to take the side of WBC, simply because they share the same type of religion (though I don't think he understands what they do different...) suddenly I'm in a 2 hour debate as if I attacked him.. No matter what I said he would yell and start attacking me personally, even on things that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just went nuts.

Finally I asked him a simple question.. "Do you think the WBC are part of the same religion as you, yes or no?" I never got an answer, in 20 posts of IM, I got cursing, insulting, straying off topic, but not a single yes or no.

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

I think it should be noted that the Westboro Baptist Church is frowned upon by just about every single religious organization apart from itself. So to call them "religious people" in the same sense that Methodists, Catholics, non-denominationals, regular Baptists, and every other Christian denomination are "religious people" is like saying that the Islamic Terrorists are the same as regular Muslims.

What they are doing is by no means following the word of God, and frankly I don't consider anything that they do to be religious at all. They're using the name of God to legitimize their blind hatred, which is not acceptable at all. They aren't religious. They're mean and hateful, so much so that they've convinced themselves that their hate is a God-given gift to the world.

So the question here isn't "How do you reason with religious people?" It's "How do you reason with people who spread hate in the name of God?"

 

[Dfskelleton]

I thought a while ago that the vatican officially removed all ties to the WBC with the rest of the religion. Here's where I think I can see your friend's oppinion: Fred Phelps from a glance is an Old Testament prophet. The prophets of the Old Testament foccused more on scaring people and showing the negative things, like "If you sin, oh boy, God is just waiting for you to mess up so he can throw your ass into the pits of hell for all eternity. You hear that? Hmm?", which is wrong. The idea of Christianity is "God loves you all, so go and show this love unto others, as God is always with you." However, the WBC takes this quite a few steps too far. They speak their prejudices and say it's God's will. That isn't good.
These WBC guys are bitter, sickening people who put Christianity in a poor light. I was planning on carrying around a sign that says "Cthulhu hates the WBC" at one point, I just don't know when would be a good time. Anyone else want to join?
ALso, I don't usually bring these things up unless provoked.

 

[superbatranger]

I just say you should let them believe what they believe. To try to argue with them or reason with them will just lead to problems.

 

[Corkydog]

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?" and simple (non-stupid) answers?

Well, to start with, as with any argument with a friend, give them the benifit of the doubt. Does he know what the WBC stands for, or what it is? Because he may be getting decieved by the label of "Baptist Church", when in fact it is essentially a cult that exploits people's devotion to Jesus in order to commit hate crimes.

If he does understand that, he isn't arguing with you because he is religious, he is arguing with you because he believes in the WBC's message, at which point he is no longer worth speaking to.

That said, he is defensive about his faith because church bashing is in vogue amongst some atheistic or agnostic circles, and it becomes tiresome to be discriminated against because of your faith. I am NOT (repeat: NOT) saying all athiests or agnostics are like this.

Now then, the more open ended part of your question.

When arguing with a religious person, a few things to keep in mind. Disagreeing with their faith is fine, but don't insult their faith or them for believing it. Just because they don't believe the same as you doesn't mean they are wrong or inferior.

Don't always ask for scientific reasoning behind their every opinion. Opinions are just that, they don't need reasoning. Religion gets a bad rap because it is faith based and is therefore illogical, but screw that. Religion fulfills a distinct human need: Need for purpose. Science gives us meaningless lives, so it's no wonder people sought a bigger answer.

The most important thing is to try and understand why they are saying what they are saying. Faith is a complex thing. The Catholic church is far more vast than just the Pope (I use this as an example because I was raised semiCatholic. It's my area of familiarity). Don't write off people because of religious affiliation.

 

[Nimcha]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.

 

[Blind Sight]

Well, personally I think 'reason' is somewhat of an incorrect term, because religion is largely founded on irrationality and belief, not reason. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, your business is your business.

Anyway, I'm an atheist and my family is extremely Catholic. Unlike them, however, I have actually read parts of the Bible and I use those for the sake of discussion. It amazes me that some Christians just accept whatever a priest tells them and never actually read the book that their faith is founded on. Anyway, here's a discussion that I had between me and my dad awhile back:

Dad: The problem is Blind Sight, that if you don't believe in a higher power you don't believe in anything at all. (yes he actually said that)
Me: Completely invalid argument. It's 'I think, therefore I am' not 'I believe, therefore I am' removing your reason and logic just so you can believe in some abstract concepts is not the correct way to follow something. You have to analyze it, study alternatives, and determine truth from that. Even your own opinions conflict with Biblical teachings.
Dad: What do you mean?
Me: I know you give a lot of money to anti-abortion charities, right? So you believe that in any situation, killing 'babies' is wrong, correct?
Dad: Yes of course.
Me: Then how do you defend God for drowning babies in the great Flood? Or killing all the first born babies in Egypt when Pharaoh refused to let the Jews go? Or burning them alive when God destroyed Sodom and Gommorrah? These are all events where God willingly kills innocent children within the Bible, does he get to avoid this rule just because he's God? At best, that makes God a bully, and at worse a tyrant.
Dad: The Bible doesn't say that.
Me: Look it up, it does. It also has God tell Moses to commit genocide against the Canaanites. He orders the Jews to kill every man, married woman, child and even animals. The only Canaanites he deems worthy to live are virgin girls, and he only does this because he orders the Jews to take them as wives. Basically, making them war trophies and rape victims. Now tell me, do those actions seem like one of a higher being, or do they instead sound like the fantasies of some ordinary guy from early in human history writing a story?

My dad then told me those parts weren't in the Bible and I was 'mocking his faith'. I told him to actually read the bloody thing before he tries to tell what is and isn't in it. So far, he hasn't cracked it open yet.

 

[Nieroshai]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.

My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible. To other religions, I look for loopholes in their religions and ask them to do the same to me. One must believe in the supernatural in order to believe in God, so I don't argue God with atheists, only the possibility of the immaaterial.
But I digress. I don't want to hijack this thread, so suffice to say I don't worship on blind faith alone.

 

[Chibz]

1. That was hilarious.
2. You are still at the end of the spectrum.
Atheism and Religion are belief system nothing more nothing less. Both when you find people are moderates get into an argument it goes down to whether ones believes or not. Neither is inferior nor superior just an subjective system that we have.

Hey now, my beliefs aren't really that fundamentally different. The only notable one is that I disbelieve in one more religion than they do.

I'm outside of all religious delusion-bubbles Mostly because I freed myself from the christian one.

On further reflection, I'm less atheist and just STRONGLY stand by the scientific method.

 

[icaritos]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.

Please do share your reasoning with me. And no, I'm not trying to make fun of you, i just honestly haven't found a single religious person (myself included while i was still a christian) who doesn't have their belief established primarily through faith.

 

[RAWKSTAR]

Kamehameha.
Problem solved with minimal effort.
Maybe a warp one if I'm feeling raunchy.

 

[icaritos]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.

My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible. To other religions, I look for loopholes in their religions and ask them to do the same to me. One must believe in the supernatural in order to believe in God, so I don't argue God with atheists, only the possibility of the immaaterial.
But I digress. I don't want to hijack this thread, so suffice to say I don't worship on blind faith alone.

So your belief stems mostly from the "god within the cracks" ideology. I'm not criticism you but that is still mostly (if not 100%) faith, rather than fact.