How do you reason with religious people?

[Nimcha]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.

My reasoning with atheists is about the possibility of the supernatural existing, and the fact that scientists haven't yet invented something that can detect psionic presence doesn't mean it does not exist, in fact quantum theory shows how it's possible.

I see. This sort of thing might work on people who have no idea what quantum theory is but for people who actually understand some of the basics of the science it's quite insulting. Quantum theory says absolutely nothing about the supernatural I'm afraid. You can claim it does because it's so hard to understand and because nobody knows all of it yet.

As far as your argument goes, ever heard of Occam's Razor?

See this is the problem, we can't talk about this reasonably since this has nothing to do with reason.

 

[justnotcricket]

Generally, I try to apply the principle of live and let live - as others have mentioned above me in this thread, it's better to leave off the religious debates (and they're easier to start than you think) unless you actually *want* the debate/argument/whatever that follows.

 

[Whispering Cynic]

If there is a lesson in life I learned well, it is that there is no reasoning with religious people. They cannot be swayed by logic and reason, they will stand their ground regardless of the argument you present. There is no point in even trying, the eventual change must come from within. Sure, I respect their beliefs but they don't interest me and I will not discuss them because that only causes unnecessary problems.

But I do like to explore ways to troll certain specimens into leaving my door as fast as possible (if simple "no, thank you, goodbye" doesn't work)...

 

[ErythorbicAcid]

You don't.

Religious and non-religious people hold fundamentally differing views of reality. So it's not a matter of changing their mind on a particular subject, or with enough information they will then see. It takes a very fundamental shift in the way they think about and interact with the universe at large.

This is why religion scares the hell outta me. How in the world are we supposed to think about the big picture as a society when the big picture is so very different from person to person?

What do you do when half of your population is waiting for the world to end and would not only welcome it, but actually work to make it happen while believing they were doing good.

 

[SinisterGehe]

You don't. You can not do a concluding discussion about some with person who's 1+1=3 not 2. The bases of your view point are way too different and they way you construct your thesis differs way too much.

It is like discussing is Tea good with someone who has always drank tea and never even tasted tea. Neither you really have Idea what you are talking about.
You don't know "God"
He can't understand how someone can not know "God". HE can't put himself to the position of not knowing god because he "knows" it and works around with that fact.

I personally see it quite selfish that someone believes in "God".
Once one religious person said that my atheism is only gods way of testing hes faith and he must convert me to succeed. That way of thinking puts everything in to position of "This is only "God's" test on me" projecting you as the center of the world.

 

[PayneTrayne]

If you're both dead set in your beliefs than simply don't. There's no point in arguing when neither one of you are willing to change your viewpoints.

 

[Worgen]

the easiest way to reason with them is to know the book they like better then them which usually isnt hard, very few religious people really know what the bible or whatever says, they mostly get it from stories from priests or tv etc etc, hell catholics arnt supposed to read the bible at all, they are only supposed to get stuff about it from their priest, very few of them really know what sort of weird stuff is in it

 

[Andrew_Mac]

So.. I guess for a lack of better word, Subject "How do you reason with religious people?"

You don't. It's impossible

EDIT: not meaning any disrespect, its just a fact.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Oh, here's a convoluted mess from my brain.

I tried living in the same vein as an Atheist for a few years, and all it did was show me how fucking horrible life can be. "Freedom" turned into some messy, convoluted interpretation of perspective (absolute freedom cannot live with one ounce of ethics on its back). Their "Happiness" was just as hollow and meaningless as the happiness they protested against ("You aren't happy, you've only been programmed to think that way by your faith" as an argument is paradoxical and self defeating when used as an argument in favor of the abolition of religion, and yet, this is an argument I see all the time. The logical explanation is that the one making the argument will gain a sense of joy and self-worth from watching the fall of others. This is the core of my initial problem and why I can only respect those who do not actively seek to destroy others to justify their existence).

The only thing I learned from this exercise was that in the eyes of the inevitability of death, it's pointless to create struggles that actively try to take the joy from our lives. If we exist just to live, then there is no point and thus, we must create our own (or a perfectly logical mind would gladly accept death at the first opportunity).

So perhaps an if an irrational belief helps one function in society, then it is not all the evil it's made out to be. Of course, due to the impossibility of removing bias (because we can only definitively live and think from our own perspective) from the equation, struggles of this nature will arise anyway.

"I'd rather die happy than live in misery, because death is the only inevitability we share in common."
Sort of a perverted version of Milton, but it works for me.

 

[Akalistos]

Repeat the question (not to me but him) if he doesn't reply. He's actually trying to lead the topic onto a spot where he as the "high ground".

The way I see it, if you can't make a good argument in a debate then you are wrong. If I were to debate with you for example, that full moon turn people batshit crazy, and you found a good argument to prove otherwise then I would say you are right or at least you got a point.

 

[DesiPrinceX09]

Same way I reason with you non-religious people: not at all, just agree to disagree.

 

[Marik2]

Like any other person I think. I never reason with them about their own religion simply because religion isn't supposed to be reasonable. Besides that I have only ever met a few people who were the close-minded religion type, and that was because they didn't like me dating their daughter. That's when I learned there is no point in even trying to reason with such people.

One COULD argue that religion is about reason, just from a different philosophy. But I respect your right not to be curious.

Oh sure, I find religion interesting from an anthropological standpoint. And I sometimes like having an insight in how religious zealots think. Maybe I should have written 'belief is not meant to be reasonable'.

But I do find mine reasonable. I myself joined it because I could not reason against its reality, I have defended it using reason, etc. Just because others don't doesn't mean the whole religion is like that. The apostle Paul was a philosopher that convinced people to join through reason and debate. Being reasonable and having reasonable premises doesn't make ANY belief the absolute truth, however, because science is unable to prove or disprove, thus leaving "proof" up to philosophers to find holes in arguments.

You find your religion reasonable because of your belief I suppose. That's fine. But also irrelevant since you can't reason about that belief to someone who doesn't share it.

Please do share your reasoning with me. And no, I'm not trying to make fun of you, i just honestly haven't found a single religious person (myself included while i was still a christian) who doesn't have their belief established primarily through faith.

My belief isnt established by any dogma or "God within the cracks" ideology.

Off topic: This is still in the off topic section?

This really needs to go to the R&P section, where are the mods?

 

[Thurston]

When you have significant differences with another person, yet want to maintain contact, I first suggest find out what you agree on.

 

[Chibz]

I'm not the overly religious type. I think I am more agnostic than anything else. But for me it isn't about whether you can reason with a religious person because it sounds really stupid when place like that way. Atheists can be the most unreasonable bastards like their religious counterparts. Both are reasonable, but both can shove their dogma up in your face to the point where you want to hit them with a baseball bat.

Personally, I'm not really "that" dogmatic. It's just that the religious are getting so pushy that I'm forced to less "opt out" and more "actively fend off".

On that note, why WOULD I respect religion? The bible, for example, is the book that talks about the earth coming into existence in 7 days. It says to ban eating shellfish, and kill homosexuals. There's, frankly, so little to respect about it.

 

[F'Angus]

I live with a Devout Christian, and I study Archaeology which they don't believe in...

You Can't Reason with them.. We just have a laugh and banter about it.. Just try not to get into a serious argument and you'll be fine

I hate to derail (no, I don't), but...what do these people think you're digging out of the ground then?

Things put there by God...not sure why God'd put them there though.

 

[burningdragoon]

First point (which is not that important): yes, I am religious to a decent extent.

Now, I will just point out some of the best posts (from this thread) that I've seen in any religion topic:

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

ding ding ding! We have a winner. I don't know why so few seem to figure that part out.

Firstly, this should be in Religion and Politics.

Secondly, would the Escapist PLEASE, for the love of all that is good, stop lumping all religious people in with their radical fanatics? Over 90% of America is religious, and within that group, a good three-quarters of them just live their lives like any other regular person in the country. You live with them, you go to work and/or school with them, you play games with them. The great majority of us are completely reasonable people, and you know it. If your friend is a WBC supporter, that's just your friend's opinion. The WBC is its own extremist entity within Christianity that has no influence over any other Christian church.

On a related note, within religious "grouping", if you will, why are so many people so quick to separate moderate Islam from its extremist elements, yet so happy to judge Christianity by its extremist elements without batting an eye? I'm not usually this confrontational about it, but I've gotta say, hypocritical much?

This one is an all around good point, and I second it entirely

 

[Samus Aaron]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

By being courteous and reasonable.

Religion is a very touchy subject for a lot of people, and I'm not arrogant enough to start anything about it.

 

[Thaius]

See, the main flaw with talking to really religious people is that they don't believe in fact. Their whole belief system is based on something that they have been told to believe in, and not something that has evidence supporting it. When a logical person tries to bring facts into an argument against a religious person they don't understand its usefulness or purpose because its not relevant.

Usually they tend to get angry because in the argument you are trying to get them to see another side of a story, to get them to look beyond what they know, to push their boundaries of thought. For religious people this is very scary, therefore they react with anger. Religious people have been told what to believe their whole life, you can't just force them to think independantly because its like sheep without their shepard, they get lost and scared.Free or inspirational thought is something the church likes to suppress as much as possible, so trying to get an indocrinated person to think for themselves, to look for facts, or to challenge their beliefs is near impossible.

Disclaimer: This is just my experience in dealing with religious poeple. If you take offence to this post and are not a religious person, then I am sorry just ignore my post. If you take offense and are a religious person, I won't bother debating with you for reasons stated above.

I find that last paragraph interesting. You basically just equated religion with anti-intellectualism, and you don't want anyone to challenge you on it. Your perception of all religious people is conveniently such that you claim it wouldn't be worth discussing it with them. Good job remaining comfortable in your lack of understanding! *sarcastic thumbs up*

Look, you don't need to debate with someone about it, you just need to understand that you're generalizing here, and the resulting ideas are wrong. Some religious people have issues with that, true. But the amount is becoming less and less. Reason being, we live in a culture that is increasingly hostile toward religion; it's "tolerated" in the actual meaning of the word, but generally made fun of in our culture based on sweeping generalizations like the ones you made here. Anyone growing up with, or accepting later in life, a given religion goes through a period in his/her life where they have to step back and take a serious look at what they believe and decide whether they actually believe it for themselves. Faith does play a role in a religion, but rarely does it take an all-important one. You don't have to agree with any given religion if you don't want to, but to essentially say that anyone who believes in a given religion is against logical thought is more than a little much, and more than a little ignorant.

I agree with you that I was generalizing. And that my tone came off as ignorant. And that not all religious people are the same. Though, it's hard to remind one's self that organized religion has a place in the world when there are nutjobs like WBC taking up the airwaves. That lady's (the one in the anon vs WBC interview) pompous grin alone, makes me scared for humanity.

Yeah, Westboro is... ugh, they really need to stop existing. I find it interesting though, to be honest, that gamers don't understand the plight of Christians more than they tend to. I mean every time someone kills someone over a video game, or lets a baby die while they play WoW, we have to jump to clarify that those few nutjobs are not representative of the whole, the majority, or even a notable minority of the gaming populace. Yet when Westboro Baptist acts up again, everyone is quick to criticize Christianity as if anything those idiots say is representative of what the faith actually teaches. I get that it can be difficult (I admit sometimes, as a Christian, I have to remind myself that not every atheist is a militant Christian-hater), it just seems like gamers and believers should be able to connect on that level a little more.

 

[Circusfreak]

i kill it with my science