How do you reason with religious people?

[Lem0nade Inlay]

Show him the website godhatesfags.com, and see what he says.

Impossible. The site's been taken down.

Well, once WBC finally take it back from 4chan (if it ever happens) you could show it to him then.

My point is just that the OP should point out the terrible things that the Westboro Church has done, and see what his friends reaction is. If his friend still isn't phased and continues to attack the OP for no reason, he really is not a good friend, and not a good Christian in my opinion.

You reason with religious people like you reason with anyone else. The vast majority of them are more or less rational people who can engage in discussion and debate about their faith, so long as you're not openly attacking them for it.

That is my favourite reply on this thread so far, nice one.

 

[Truehare]

Simply put, you don't. Faith and reason are opposite ends of a spectrum. And I'm not saying one id better than the other, because pure faith AND pure reason are both extremes, and therefore bad.

 

[VGC USpartan VS]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

That's easy. He is able but not willing. Imagine this: You decide to tell a lie.

"Yeah honey, that looks great," you try to say. Unfortunately, the MIGHTY HAND OF GOD reaches from the sky and knocks you out before the words leave your lips.

You can't bring reason into discussions of religion. Religion, by definition, is something outside or contrary to reason. If there was scientific basis to it, it's science, not religion. If there isn't, or if you choose to ignore it, it's a matter of faith.

Therefore, attempts to appeal to reason can't work, you have to appeal to faith, or nothing at all.

This is absolutely true. However, in this case the argument isn't:

Religion is wrong.
The WBC is religious.
Therfore, the WBC is wrong.

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

Just wanted to quote that last part... really good. First off, I hate WBC for that very reason... now for the question... I can basically talk to any one I know about religion and it will be a nice little chat, but if I dare even talk to an Atheist about religion he flat out attacks my religion (Christianity) and any other religion he/she can think of, not to mention they do so with information they learned from SOUTH PARK and FAMILY GUY! So when talking to people about religion I will not attack them with mine but I will defend it when critisized, sooooooooooooooo you know know why I have but of only 1 Atheist friend... the rest I've met have been complete jerks to me.

 

[DkryptX3]

Personally I've had religious people try to convert me, I've listened to what they have had to say and asked a few questions mostly because I find it interesting to hear about different beliefs. However when they start getting confrontational it leads me to believe they are insecure with their beliefs.

 

[OwainGlyndwr1000]

To preface: I am not religious, but I do believe in at least one deity. I am also a rationalist.

Religion is, by definition, irrational. It's looking at the world and saying, "There must exist an unobservable, untestable phenomenon beyond what can be absolutely proven." While there is plenty of objectionable dogma in the Bible, it offers an excellent definition of faith: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." You can show me your dog, but if I have unshakable faith that it's a chair, then, by god, I'm going to sit on your dog. There will be insurmountable evidence, and even proof, that your dog is not a chair, but I have faith! This is also an excellent example of why I often refuse to discourse with religious people: faced with irrefutable fact that one of their precious beliefs is incorrect, they do not change their beliefs, and instead stubbornly continue believing in their faith. (That is not to say that all beliefs can be scientifically disputed. There is no way to either prove or disprove the existence of a deity.)

The problem is that most religious people refuse to admit that. They refuse to acknowledge their blinders and adamantly adhere to their beliefs even when faced with mountains of counter-evidence. A prime example is many devout Christians' refusal to believe in evolution. Evolution is an observable and testable scientific event, regardless of if it's been occurring for billions of years, or only millenia . . . but that's an argument for another thread.

All of that to reiterate: Religion Is Irrational. When you realize that you are arguing against the faith of a religious person, you must give up refuting their illogic, and exit the debate.

You shouldn't see Hebrews words as saying "There's no proof, so just hope for the best." To have faith in things unseen, in the context in which this was written , is to have faith that Christ is an ever present reality- faith being particularly helpful to a Church that was marginalised and frequently brutalised.
Also, you say that Religion is by its very definition, irrational. Whose definition? And how does the term "Religion" cover the very broad spectrum of beliefs found across the world? You could talk about God, but Buddhists are practicaly atheists. Would a belief in the philosophical God proposed by Aristotle be religion? Is weekly meditation religion?
You also mentioned that you refuse to debate Religious people because when presented with mounds of evidence they just resort to faith. By this you mean evolution. That's the basic impression I get, anyway.
Well, I think that my Church, Roman Catholic, would basically be okay with Evolution, as would many other denominations, and we're the ones that believe all the whacky stuff that tend to put others off. There's no rational reason to abandon God because of Natural Selection. There are plenty of Christians who believe in Evolution or a non-literal Genesis that cannot be considered in any way to be somehow less Christian- St Augustine, St Aquinas, Blessed John Henry Newman, C.S Lewis, Alastair Macintyre, Francis Collins, John Polkinghorne, Brother Guy Cosolmagno, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Father George Lemaitre, Theodosious Dobzhansky and a bunch of others I can't be asked to remember.
Also- Yay Rationalism! Hume's overrated!

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Does your friend resemble this guy?

If not, you have no reason to be bothered by them.

 

[brainslurper]

for the most part, the major religions are about helping those less fortunate then you. while there may be a kill all non believers element in all of them, they are positive things. the key thing is to take their messages and apply them to your own life, unlike those who believe that gay people cant be married, just because the religion you follow says they cant. the second you use your religion to govern how other people live you have gone too far. and there will always be people who use religion as a selling point for what they want to accomplish, like Osama bin laden and hitler, while neither actually represented the religious views they said they did. if everyone just minded their own business and believed what was proven scientific fact then their wouldn't be a problem here.

 

[YukoValis]

wow lot's of help I guess. My friend is rather smart, but for what it seems to mean, he is from texas and baptist... so as long as we don't talk about religion it's all good, but I do like advice on what to do when that subject comes up.

 

[ImprovizoR]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

You are forgetting one of their favorite "arguments" that god works in mysterious ways. Though as mysterious as he is, they still know exactly what he wants from us and exactly what happens when you die.

 

[Cgull]

You can't really 'reason' with someone religious as the whole point of a belief system is that it's based on faith, which in itself can't really be reasoned with, hence having faith.

I'm sure someone else has beaten me to saying that already though

Incidentally, if religion does come up, why not go for a 'you have your belief, I have mine' and leave it at that? I've got a mix of friends ranging from militant athiest (irritating) to hardcore religious (equally irritating) and if religion comes up in conversation it's just not worth it as views won't change regardless of whatever point you may feel should win the day.

 

[Light 086]

Simply put; you don't. Some will respect your opinion and admit you have strong arguments but ultimately disagree, some others will say that it's all god's design and you're wrong, and finally few are complete asses in which you'll have a more stimulating conversation with a wall (look at WBC). Pretty much it depends on how reasonable the person is, but that only determines how 'friendly' your discussion is.

 

[Samus Aaron]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

 

[Wintermoot]

simply tell them my opinion and if they try to force their religion on me I would tell them I would like to remain Atheist
about your friend,
tell him his Christianity is COMPLETELY different then the hate filled speeches of the WBC and that he wont want to be associated with those douches
PS
they even fall apart at one of the commandments: "Love Thy Neighbor" they turned it in to:"HATE they Neighbor"!

 

[lacktheknack]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

I doesn't damn people for prejudice. Where'd you get that?

 

[Wintermoot]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

as far as I know the commandments ONLY apply to christians

 

[lacktheknack]

Show him the website godhatesfags.com, and see what he says.

Impossible. The site's been taken down.

It's still down?!

Wow, Anon is talking srs bsnis.

 

[00slash00]

How do you reason with religious people?

simple answer, you dont. religion is based on faith, not reason

 

[Daverson]

Saying you're on the side of WBC just because they're Christian is equivalent to saying "I am an Atheist, ergo, I am on the same side as [the USSR/the PRC/the DPRK] (delete as appropriate)" or "I believe that the whales should be preserved, ergo, I am a Nazi".

(Actually, that last one might be true, I can't help but feel that Nazis would have ulterior motives for saving the whales, they're just too villainous to do this one nice thing! And when you think about it, U-Boats were a sort of similar shapes to whales, weren't they? It must be a ploy I tells'ya! There's probably hordes of Nazi-filled U-Boats masquerading as whales right under our noses!)

 

[ZydrateDealer]

Simply put, you don't. Faith and reason are opposite ends of a spectrum. And I'm not saying one id better than the other, because pure faith AND pure reason are both extremes, and therefore bad.

Nope they aren't even on the same spectrum...it's a trap that everyone who is debating with a religious zealot falls into at one time or another, that they're being unreasonable. To them faith seems logical. Their is more reason for life being here if there is a divine creator and the fact that we are an accident doesn't hold water for them because of the age old question, why are we here" must have an answer more sophisticated than to eat and fuck.
Yes we have a great argument for evolution but not creation because we need to solve the question of how does organic soup become life. Here's the point where the more laid back religious people say that this is the creator's moment of brilliance...just remember that this is a good middle ground to give them until a scientist does this and then we give them the big bang until another scientist shows us how it works really. God can't exist in the observed but in those unobservable places where doubt hangs heavy you religious guys can feel free to go nuts.

By the way it is blind faith not pure faith that is the bad one...but this is still the best post I've seen because in not arguing about their beliefs they have nothing to defend and if they attack yours, you have proof that your beliefs are correct.

So now it comes to pass that I must offer you my opinion...I was brought up to believe in god in school I was forced to pray to him once a day by government mandate. At home I was free to believe what ever I wanted, I was ignored slightly more than my siblings, just enough for me to grow up without beliefs being forced upon me. I don't believe in god. Tell this tale to your religious friends, that I given the freedom to choose my religion and the education to know of all of these religions consciously made a decision to remain free from all of them.

So forget the arguments and focus on this overwhelmingly clear evidence: God has given us free will so that men might choose to be evil or good. Children are inherently good as they don't know how to be evil yet. As a child I chose no religion, assuming that God has given me a good soul to lead the way then I have made the right choice, so IF there is a God then he want's us to not believe in him...but I'm 100% sure that there isn't one...sorry.

 

[etherlance]

Eerrrmmm.........WBC?........someone care to explain that?



As for dealing with religious people, I just put it like this.......God and jesus are both Monkeys.......acording to Darwins theory of evolution we all evolved from monkeys, yet God made us all in his image (seriously read the bible, its full of crazy shit like that).

Now if God made us all in his image then by my theory he is upstairs right now hurling crap around with the Monkey Angels...............Yeah............I know right?