How hard is too Hard?
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If you beat Battletoads and G&G, you owe yourself two big pats on the back. I never beat either, though I did beat Mega Man, Top Gun and Ninja Turtles, which are regarded as some of the harder games for the NES.knumpify said:
I hear that 'Silver Surfer' was regarded by some as the hardest game for the NES, but I never played it, thankfully.
I really hate when people complain about legendary on Halo being too hard. It's more or less a go straight in and shoot them game. Based on how good you are at doing that, you choose a difficulty. Halo 2 had the best difficulty system ever. Your mom would think easy was too easy, and legendary keeps even the best players occupied. Complaining about it seems like you're just being a crybaby because the game's telling you that you aren't good enough for the hardest mode. And then those same people say games are way too easy now. You can only say a game is too hard if it gives you no option to make it easier.
Silver Surfer is a classic example of too hard for the wrong reasons. See the AVGN review.mitsoxfan said:
I was just about to post about this. Actually, to tell you the truth, compared to most games nowadays, games really aren't that hard, but rather cheap. Hard is when you need to think your way around or use your skills to overcome something, whereas cheap is just like bad level design/item placement/AI.
What I was about to ask, though, is what is everyone's last GOOD hard game that they've played? I'm either talking about something that is genuinely hard, or there's a distinction between "normal" and "hard" difficulties that goes beyond "enemies 2x health/damage/etc." It doesn't necessarily have to be uber-challenging, just difficult enough to enjoy.
About suggestions for games, I would say "rogue-like"'s and SHMUPs. The DS recently got a GOOD rogue-like game called Mysterious Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer (it's the only thing I've been playing this week), and coming up is Bangai-O Spirits. It would help to say which systems you have for suggestions, though.
What I was about to ask, though, is what is everyone's last GOOD hard game that they've played? I'm either talking about something that is genuinely hard, or there's a distinction between "normal" and "hard" difficulties that goes beyond "enemies 2x health/damage/etc." It doesn't necessarily have to be uber-challenging, just difficult enough to enjoy.
About suggestions for games, I would say "rogue-like"'s and SHMUPs. The DS recently got a GOOD rogue-like game called Mysterious Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer (it's the only thing I've been playing this week), and coming up is Bangai-O Spirits. It would help to say which systems you have for suggestions, though.
You make an excellent point. But Compare Morrowind with Oblivion, as you say it takes an age in Morrowind before you can even think about getting into the main quest. For a low level character it's just not possible, however in Oblivion I was knee deep in Demon guts not long after leaving the sewers. I lost interest in Oblivion because I didn't have to work to achieve anything, in Morrowind I felt a real sense of achievment by the time I felt comfortable fighting even low level enemies because of the effort and difficulty in getting to that point.msakey said:
Morrowind gave you a good reason to grind, which is what I love in RPGs. Oblivion was as easy at level 1 as it was at whatever level was max.philios82 said:
Oblivion I felt I could beat the game no matter what my skill set/level was. Morrowind, I never felt that way. But I wouldn't consider either game 'hard', especially when we're talking classic gaming.
Maybe for today's gamers, hard has a different meaning. But the first and last time I made it through round 1 of Ghosts and Goblins, and then threw the game into the woods, sort of defined 'too hard' for me. Maybe I'm just desensitized.
I was very disappointed by Oblivion, but I had difficulty saying why; actually it was the hardest review I've ever written. You sum it up very well there - it had no sense of accomplishment. It also had no sense of epic... ness.philios82 said:
Morrowind, difficulty imbalances aside, was Epic. Here you are in some remote backwater (ever looked at a map of Tamriel? Vvardenfell is the very definition of "insignificant"), dealing with what's essentially a local problem, and somehow you felt caught up in something huge and magnificent - that sense of accomplishment you mention was palpable. In Oblivion you're literally trying to save the world from Hell itself and I for one just didn't care.
Hard is when, after the first try due to inexperience, after the second time due to lack of refinement, after the third time due to bad luck, getting to the fourth time and being unable to do it, it is too hard.
hmmm not sure if KOTOR boss fight counts but killing Malak without drain life( it allowed you to full heal off dead Jedi's too) seemed impossible(I only had a bunch of stimulants, twelve med packs and five life supports). Then again if you chose talents with the boss battle in mind( Force Resists and Drain Life among most important skills) the actual battle was a walk in the park.
To me it seems like the most broken boss battle ever.
To me it seems like the most broken boss battle ever.
Interesting dilemma. At what point does 'Hard' become 'Unfair'? Depends greatly on the genre, but FPS shooters allow for the most common analogy- if you die due to an ambush, or something you could have prevented, it's fair game. If you die suddenly with no warning at all due to glitches or crazy-farsighted snipers you can't see (Farcry), it's unfair.
Basically, if there's a way around an obstacle that doesn't involve blind luck or something no one would ever guess without a FAQ, it's fair. There's only a few games I've ever played where I felt it was too hard for it's own good. One that comes to mind is the mission in the first Rainbow Six (Glass Tiger?) where any detection or deaths means a mission failure. There are two floors accessible from the rooftop starting point- one takes you right into a sniperfest extravaganza in the main lobby (for the guards, not you) and the other one opens into an elegant hallway with one patrolling guard. This is the only way in. You basically have to make a guess when the guard is in the hall since the shaft metal prevents you from hearing his footfalls. One try in four, you'll make it across the hall to the next room without being seen if you run... That makes one down, another 5 or so close shaves like that to go. Fun?
Limited by technology as older games were, you can forgive them a certain lack of realism. In turn, more realistic games tend create a better sense of achievement if that's what you're aiming for. Strategy games are generally better at this because you have a lot more options than just one guy's weapons- no matter how many times a mission or campaign kicks your butt, there's a bunch of other ways of doing it you haven't tried yet. Warcraft 3's Frozen Throne Campaigns are legendary for their difficulty on Hard mode, but with the sole exception of the final mission, trial and error won the day for me.
At the risk of repeating material from my last post, I thought Advance Wars: Days of Ruin's last mission to be the unfair kind of Hard. There's tons of walkthroughs available and I did eventually win, but every single guide referred to a certain point where you would build high-priority units (usually Medium Tanks) at a far off area to glitch the AI into Mortaring them instead of your main force. That would be like finding that the last boss in a NG/DMC/GoW style action game will sit perfectly still and let you kill it the entire battle if you walk around in a circle 3 times and slash at thin air. If you have to exploit the AI via nonsensical moves to win, it's the broken kind of Hard.
Basically, if there's a way around an obstacle that doesn't involve blind luck or something no one would ever guess without a FAQ, it's fair. There's only a few games I've ever played where I felt it was too hard for it's own good. One that comes to mind is the mission in the first Rainbow Six (Glass Tiger?) where any detection or deaths means a mission failure. There are two floors accessible from the rooftop starting point- one takes you right into a sniperfest extravaganza in the main lobby (for the guards, not you) and the other one opens into an elegant hallway with one patrolling guard. This is the only way in. You basically have to make a guess when the guard is in the hall since the shaft metal prevents you from hearing his footfalls. One try in four, you'll make it across the hall to the next room without being seen if you run... That makes one down, another 5 or so close shaves like that to go. Fun?
Limited by technology as older games were, you can forgive them a certain lack of realism. In turn, more realistic games tend create a better sense of achievement if that's what you're aiming for. Strategy games are generally better at this because you have a lot more options than just one guy's weapons- no matter how many times a mission or campaign kicks your butt, there's a bunch of other ways of doing it you haven't tried yet. Warcraft 3's Frozen Throne Campaigns are legendary for their difficulty on Hard mode, but with the sole exception of the final mission, trial and error won the day for me.
At the risk of repeating material from my last post, I thought Advance Wars: Days of Ruin's last mission to be the unfair kind of Hard. There's tons of walkthroughs available and I did eventually win, but every single guide referred to a certain point where you would build high-priority units (usually Medium Tanks) at a far off area to glitch the AI into Mortaring them instead of your main force. That would be like finding that the last boss in a NG/DMC/GoW style action game will sit perfectly still and let you kill it the entire battle if you walk around in a circle 3 times and slash at thin air. If you have to exploit the AI via nonsensical moves to win, it's the broken kind of Hard.
Devil May Cry 3 is pretty tough, but if you've beaten Contra then I'm not sure if that's really gonna cut it. Dynamite Headdy and Alien Soldier for the genesis are excellent games with a pretty brutal level of difficulty towards the end. Lemmings is also crazy difficult on the hardest setting and if you haven't tried I wanna be the guy yet then you really should cos it's all kinds of awesome.knumpify said:
Oh god, I couldn't beat Alien Soldier USING A BLOODY EMULATOR AND SAVESTATES, let alone even have a shot of seeing the ending with my mega drive.Strafe Mcgee said:
i have to say playing COD 4 on veteran then attempting to free the hostage in the arcade epilogue.
Halfway through Mortal Kombat: Armagedden. The AI all of a sudden thinks you need an ass whoppin.
Call of Duty 3 for the Wii cuz of the controls.
Subspace Emisary in Brawl on a higher difficulty. I'm struggling slightly on normal. Then again, I sold my cube 11/06 and bought my Wii xmas 07...
Subspace Emisary in Brawl on a higher difficulty. I'm struggling slightly on normal. Then again, I sold my cube 11/06 and bought my Wii xmas 07...