How long should it take for a game to "Open up?"

[SAMAS]

On the off chance that you've missed the whole kerfluffle about Monster Hunter Tri, here's the relevant part to this discussion:

Part the First -- Yahtzee did his video review.

Part the Second -- Fans called foul, pointing out that the video doesn't go past the game's tutorial, and didn't even talk about hunting the big monsters (the entire point of the game).

Part the Third -- Yahtzee defended his review in Extra Punctuation claiming that a game that takes ten hours to get through the tutorial is a bad game.

Setting aside the validity of the claim as it applies to MHT (the flame war over that is still burning and will not be repeated here), let's go to the summary of the article: "If a game only gets decent after the tutorial, it's not a good game."

Okay, so maybe the "tutorial" part is a bit unfair (unless the game has a really long one, like Kingdom Hearts II). But all other things aside, he brings up a point: Games that give you a lot of choices or options usually don't give you all of them right off the bat. You'll usually have to go through a few stages of a First-Person before you find your first Rocket Launcher, and at least half the game before the BFG is available. You usually don't get the top-tier spells in an RPG until you're two-thirds through the game. Strategy games usually unlock your tech tree and available units over the course of the single-player campaign. Hack-And-Slash games usually also make you learn or upgrade moves and earn weapons during the game. In Monster Hunter's case, it both uses and averts this: You have go through the one-star missions before you fight a big monster, and some weapons over the course of the game, but once you get a weapon, you can do all the moves for it right off the bat.

Naturally, a game becomes more fun as more options and such become available (at least, it's supposed to). But how long should that take? How long do you think you should have to go through the game before you get all the weapons? To have every character class/unit available?

 

[PurpleSky]

If the tutorial doesn't excite me about what the game has to offer,I don't think I'll play it too much before quiting it.I don't know about the grind though,I don't think the right formula has been found yet.

Bottom line,if the game isn't open from the start for you to enjoy,you're better off not playing it.

 

[reg42]

I think the beginning of the game should be quite short.

I'll usually not really think much about playing a game again if it hasn't started building momentum by about 1-2 hours.

 

[Deofuta]

After playing borderlands, I have to say that the best idea is when the Player can choose when the time is right to unlock new things. You can go from story mission to story mission, probably ending the main game in about....eh....12 hours of game time? Unlock all types of weapons in about 5 I believe.

For more scripted RPG's/FPS/RTS I prefer beginning level game-play to end about an hour in at the latest.

 

[Lazarus Long]

I think the upper limits of my patience are best represented by San Andreas. It was okay the first time through, but now running around Grove Street gets painfully tedious when I know what's waiting for me 4 or 5 hours in.
I'm fairly generous when it comes to giving games chances, though. It took me about 8 hours to get sick of Too Human.

As for Monster Hunter: Jeebus Cripes. People really think Yahtzee is, or claims to be, Dr. Professor Irrefutable Critic Whose Word Is Law, Ph.D? He said, as he always says, "I thought this game was shit. Here's why I thought that, in an entertaining format." He expressed an opinion for our amusement, not violated our mothers.

 

[C117]

A tutorial should be short, or completely optional. Let me into the REAL game, dammit!

When it comes to equipment, moves and retarded looking animals you trap in tiny balls, if you want to have it all, you should have to play through it all with 85-100% completion.

That's my opinion...

 

[Flames66]

This really aggravates me because there's often only a few weapons in a game that I actually want to use. The game is not fun if I'm not playing how I want to, so I will probably stop playing.It's the same with other aspects of game play as well.

 

[Proteus214]

It's the same argument for games like Final Fantasy XIII, which honestly takes at least 20 hours before you get to the open world (fortunately very little of that is really tutorial). But it really shouldn't take THAT long before the proper game comes to life (so to speak). Extra emphasis on proper game. I'm referring to when the leash comes off and you get to run with the big dogs.

The developers want their games to be judged based on the look, feel, and satisfaction of the "meat" of their games, so don't make people jump through hoops just to get what the average fan would actually consider to be the heart and soul of the game. Other games that have this issue (that I have played at least) are Demons Souls, where you have to go through a tutorial level and then a very long gauntlet to the first proper boss before you have reached the true game, and World of Warcraft, where the best content is only tuned to max level characters.

 

[Daipire]

A tutorial should be short, or completely optional. Let me into the REAL game, dammit!

When it comes to equipment, moves and retarded looking animals you trap in tiny balls, if you want to have it all, you should have to play through it all with 85-100% completion.

That's my opinion...

They should make a sort-of intuitive tutorial.

They go "look up to me, soldier" and what way you look up determines if it's inverted or not.
Then you got to jump over some pipes, what button you press determines what your jump button is.
Of course, you may need to adjust your preferences in options, but yeah.

Just a thought...

 

[Shynobee]

Personally, if a tutorial ever gets boring, then its taken too long. Bethesda generally does well with its tutorials, as in Oblivion and Fallout 3, the tutorials are rather short, relevent to the story, and then, at the end, you are given the option to skip it in any later playthroughs by offering a magic save point at the end of the tutorial that allows you to modify your character completely.

But, to give a specific time-frame that a game should open up in is rather difficult. My gut instinct was to say a half hour at the longest, but, that seems to short, for games that maybe have a lot more ideas to try and get across. Portal for example, was, like, all tutorial up until level 12 or so.

So, really, there is no specific amount of time a game needs to open up in, but, if it ever gets boring before the tutorial ends, then its doing it wrong.

 

[blouk]

i thought red dead redemption did a really good job of blending the tutorial into the gameplay and getting more in depth as the situation arose.

 

[edthehyena]

It's not really a question of "getting to the proper game" or having everything unlocked. I should be able to have fun playing a game without first hating it for 10 hours. In many cases, the fun is in unlocking everything.

Take WoW. Everyone says the "real game" starts when you hit the level cap and can start raiding or doing arena PvP, and it takes a really long time to get there. That's fine. But if the entire leveling up process (and this goes more for your first character than alts) is painful and boring, would you really want to suffer through it? This is why Cataclysm is happening -- the game isn't fun for the first several hours anymore.

A game that asks you to not have fun for a while isn't a good game.

 

[Mr. Grey]

Spoiler: Blargh, I think I missed the point.

Considering Yahtzee's OCD when regarding finding flaws in games, I thought he'd rather enjoy Monster Hunter. My mistake.

I'm kidding of course, it's simply not his cup of tea and I can understand his reasons why. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the franchise... I just don't plan on buying the gimped Wii version when the PSP will have all weapons, new monsters and a few levels to go along with them. Heck, I wish the PSP could transfer games to the PS3 so I can just play on controls that don't cramp my hand after long hours of play. I find the game fun, strategically speaking. I opt for this weapon instead of that for different monsters and different reasons.

Example: I use a hammer to break the shell off of a Giant Hermit Crab - which I've come to worship as gods - in order to get a special piece to make an armor. Is it bullshit? Not really, makes perfect sense to me. But I'm sure some would cry afoul and they'd have good reasons for it -- even if I find it quit refreshing.

Some monsters are better killed from a distance while others you should close in and crush. I agree with Yahtzee that when you've got a two handed sword and the freaking pterodactyl just flew away and you have to give chase is a bit bullshit. However, he didn't say he was using a Paintball which allows you to track said monster and where it's going. That makes it much easier. Or laying a trap as it rests up to heal and having it walk right into it when you wake it. Then again, they may have taken that out of Monster Hunter Tri, wouldn't make sense to, but I haven't played it to confirm otherwise.

He brings up good points, but then again his job isn't one that this game is made for. It's made to take your sweet time, he didn't have said time to give it a proper review and I can sympathise with that. I just think he should have ignored this one entirely if he could.

Hmmm, this is the second time I've completely ignored the answer... damn. Anyways that should give an idea. But to be a bit more clearer...

I'll go through a tutorial as long as it takes me to. I'm usually very patient. And when did Monster Hunter have a tutorial?

 

[Banana Phone Man]

Games should most definately open up and grip me with interest right from the start. That's what will make me want to play it. It's like some of the anime I watch. If the first few episodes are crap I won't wait for it to get better I will just be thinking "What the hell is this crap?"

With games I will give it time to get good say about 3-5 hours however after that if I'm not interested I simply won't play it. An example of one of those games would be Two Worlds. Was so boring (as well as other factors, Aye forsooth m'lady. aye Aye AYE!!) so I stopped playing it.

 

[Dexiro]

I'd say it depends on the game. Ideally it'd reveal content slow enough to keep a steady learning curve and fast enough to stop players from getting bored.

Open world games sometimes give you huge surges of content at once. It works for them because a lot of the fun is in exploring.

A similar game that needs a steady learning curve might decide to release content in small amounts so the player doesn't get too confused. Monster Hunter is one of those games.

Earlier MH games were bloody notorious for their learning curve, it's nice to see that MH3 gives the player more time to familiarize themselves with how the game works. Even if it can be a little annoying for experienced players.

 

[Mister Benoit]

Kingdom Hearts 1&2 on the PS2 have ~3hour tutorials which can be rather frustrating. I mean it's not like I don't know how to run around and knock stuff in a 3d environment.

My gf absolutely love's disney movies and would love to play them but refused to deal with the intro for KH2.

I'm rather surprised Super Mario Galaxy 2 didn't have an intense Tutorial.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

It varies from game to game with me. Some tutorials/starter levels are just better then others are. For example, I find the Fallout/Oblivion tutorials to be fairly smooth and let's me ease into the character (and should I wish to skip it, no problem!). Still, Fallout 3 has a tutorial about as long as Baldur's Gate 2's starter dungeon and after 4 complete playthroughs and at least half a dozen never-finished playthroughs I got to say that I find that what puts me off playing BG2 again the most is going through that boring dungeon one more time. And that is despite it only being 30-60 minutes longer than Vault 101 in F3, which is a sequence I don't mind playing through.

The problem isn't the tutorial or starter levels in themselves. Usually, the problem is that they are made in such a way that no real story elements crop up and everything goes in slow motion to ease new players in, while experienced players are left doing the same slow slog even if they could make do with a far higher pace. These two in combination makes the start levels feel tedious, because you feel as if the game is holding you back from doing what you want to do. If I want to slay monsters, why must I collect herbs or learn how to clean my clothes? If I want to build a massive army of tanks, why must I first repeat the process of putting my infantry in line formation over and over?

Ideally, a game should scale with the player or allow the player to skip parts or all of the tutorial. I've never understood the people who argue that 10-20 hours in your average JRPG is an acceptable time to wait until the game really takes off. I might have 20 hours to waste, but I don't want to do it on something I don't enjoy.

 

[darksolgamer]

A tutorial should be short, or completely optional. Let me into the REAL game, dammit!

This. Also RE4 comes to my mind, where they throw you into that huge village battle within the first 10 minutes. If you don't know what you're doing by then, you're getting chainsawed baby. But it's still fun as hell.