How Massive Multiplayer Should Work
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
DCUO is weird because in the open world it for the most part works exactly like this with ad hoc grouping and not really any penalties for jumping right into stuff, so people join up and help out all the time if they're in the same general area, but for anything instanced it requires manually forming a group ahead of time, and all loot in instances is split between the members of the group. It's very strange that half the game directly encourages free-form play and spontaneous/dynamic joining and splitting of groups with the same sort of indirect but very real rewards for doing so, while the other half of the game has the traditional "sit around and waste a bunch of time looking for people to play with, then fight over who gets the loot" model.
When it comes even to open-world play, in higher level areas, the meta-events like storming the temples in Orr, or the volcano even in Mt. Maelstrom are not something you can just walk into without any idea what to do. Dungeons, especially explorable? Good luck trying to WoW your way through.Nimcha said:
Is GW2 the perfect MMO? No, of course it isn't. Have I been actually put off by the hype? Why, yes, I have. Was I about to actually get it? No, not really, couldn't afford it with all the other expenses I had piled up.
Then, a good friend of mine bought it for me, and since it's free to play, I said, hey, why not. Is my experience entirely positive? No. Some places are still infuriatingly buggy. Some areas are just a trudge through hordes of the same boring undead mombs. Some bosses just have too much health, yet not enough variety to them, so instead of "epic" they become "tedious". I don't mind fighting a boss for 20 minutes, but if the entirety of those 20 minutes consists of circle-strafing while unloading my pistols at it (with an occasional dodge), that's a bit of a drag.
So yes, I have my complaints. But hey. It did so many things right that I'm pretty glad to swallow my complaints and just go explore the world and fend off what it throws at me.
Weird thought time:
Is it just me, or does the image on the second page of this article look remarkably like the "concept art" for just-starting-development Guardians of the Galaxy movie?
See:
http://www.thereelbits.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Guardians_of_the_Galaxy_film_concept_Art2012.jpeg
I mean, there's the giant tree-looking dude, tiny "raccoon" character, tough armored male & female characters... and OK, I guess the white-haired lady matches up with the green-skinned guy.
But STILL... the images are even in the same "style"...
Is it just me, or does the image on the second page of this article look remarkably like the "concept art" for just-starting-development Guardians of the Galaxy movie?
See:
http://www.thereelbits.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Guardians_of_the_Galaxy_film_concept_Art2012.jpeg
I mean, there's the giant tree-looking dude, tiny "raccoon" character, tough armored male & female characters... and OK, I guess the white-haired lady matches up with the green-skinned guy.
But STILL... the images are even in the same "style"...
It never bothered me to group with people in City of Heroes. Of course, I always had friends to play with. Anyway, GW2 put me to sleep.
I agree with this. It is made even worse when you add in things like instanced loot and such. You just end up with no reason whatsoever to talk or interact with anyone in your group. This isn't just in MMORPGs. A lot of games suffer from this. Of course, that is partly why I tend to play with friends instead of strangers.Nimcha said:
Once you buy the game you don't have to pay a subscription like other mmo's, in that is a free to play.GoaThief said:
No, that doesn't make it free to play at all, it makes it non-subscription based.stranamente said:
When you see fans being that disingenuous (I'm being generous) one has to wonder if they're continuing that trend regarding other aspects of the game.
But this fix is exactly what I have always hated about group content...
If I am one of 50 people beating up on some mob I don't feel like a goddam hero I feel like some cowardly shitbag, and I certainly don't want to be rewarded for it!
Killing Hogger by myself at level 10 without a bunch of twink gear was a source of genuine pride, and that and other similar events are among some of my most cherished memories from when I played WoW. Likewise that mentality of rivalry with other players led to some great world pvp and griefing (I say that as someone who was occasionally a dick to other players, but who also experienced the other side of it frequently).
That's where the challenge and the sense of reward was.
I hated Raids because even if I they are hard and you beat some epic boss and get great loot, so what? Oh, yeah, I am the mighty hero who saved the world from the Big Bad... along with literally an entire army...
LAME.
If I am one of 50 people beating up on some mob I don't feel like a goddam hero I feel like some cowardly shitbag, and I certainly don't want to be rewarded for it!
Killing Hogger by myself at level 10 without a bunch of twink gear was a source of genuine pride, and that and other similar events are among some of my most cherished memories from when I played WoW. Likewise that mentality of rivalry with other players led to some great world pvp and griefing (I say that as someone who was occasionally a dick to other players, but who also experienced the other side of it frequently).
That's where the challenge and the sense of reward was.
I hated Raids because even if I they are hard and you beat some epic boss and get great loot, so what? Oh, yeah, I am the mighty hero who saved the world from the Big Bad... along with literally an entire army...
LAME.
you should take a look at final fantasy xi then. it's been out a long time and it definitely promoted grouping. it's was essential to leveling in 99% of cases.
I mean I love the idea since I'm a huge 'power in numbers' kind of gal, but how do they establish the economy? Surely if everyone can get everything just by tickling a monster or node... It's just a simple cointoss as to who gets the super rare items right? Eventually people will run out of things that require trading. Long term GW2 hasn't quite sold itself to me, I hear alot of ho's and hums for those sitting at the pinnacle.
Excuse my ignorance I'm too poor to pick up a new game at the moment and GW2 IS still firmly at the top of my list. But I don't buy into the 'flawless MMO' yelling, ever. Not even WoW. There's always something that will sew a seed of doubt in my mind and making a character I'm invested in is a HUGE deal to me.
I always pick them up and always have a great deal of fun with them but it hasn't quite convinced me that I'll be in it for the years rather than the months.
Excuse my ignorance I'm too poor to pick up a new game at the moment and GW2 IS still firmly at the top of my list. But I don't buy into the 'flawless MMO' yelling, ever. Not even WoW. There's always something that will sew a seed of doubt in my mind and making a character I'm invested in is a HUGE deal to me.
I always pick them up and always have a great deal of fun with them but it hasn't quite convinced me that I'll be in it for the years rather than the months.
90% of what you listed, Shamus, was not an issue with City of Heroes, which is another reason why shutting it down makes no sense.
It was solo-friendly for the majority of the gameplay, you could easily find and team with your friends no matter what level they were with the sidekick/exemplar system, and changes to that system made it so that you gained XP no matter what you were doing or how low a level you were playing at. There was never having to choose who gets what drops, and during peak play times there was never a shortage of people doing what you wanted to do. Starting large groups was even easier with newer tech that was added recently.
The beauty of the MMO system is that, with little effort, you can almost always find someone playing at the same pace you are, doing the same thing you are, or flexible enough to drop what they're doing and join you. You can also create guilds/groups that have similar interests, which makes forming teams even faster. In my experience, games that have a weak traveling system and a weak chat system create a bigger timesink than standing around forming up groups. City of Heroes suffered from neither malady.
It was solo-friendly for the majority of the gameplay, you could easily find and team with your friends no matter what level they were with the sidekick/exemplar system, and changes to that system made it so that you gained XP no matter what you were doing or how low a level you were playing at. There was never having to choose who gets what drops, and during peak play times there was never a shortage of people doing what you wanted to do. Starting large groups was even easier with newer tech that was added recently.
The beauty of the MMO system is that, with little effort, you can almost always find someone playing at the same pace you are, doing the same thing you are, or flexible enough to drop what they're doing and join you. You can also create guilds/groups that have similar interests, which makes forming teams even faster. In my experience, games that have a weak traveling system and a weak chat system create a bigger timesink than standing around forming up groups. City of Heroes suffered from neither malady.
so Im just gonna say up front that i was one of the people touting this game about as amazing before it even came out. Unfortunately, people were kinda overhyping. the game most definitely doesnt live up to all the hype around saying it will be a reimagining of the mmo and things along those lines. However, gw2 is a solid game, it's fun to play, and it doesn't require you to pay a subscription.Charli said:
Having clocked well over 200 hours in the last month, I can tell you that I have never once gotten bored. I also continuously think about legendary weapons, and how much time they will require to obtain. I can see them taking an individual around 1000 hours to get just one. The people giving ho's and hum's at lvl 80 are the ppl who think that lvl 80 is the end of a game, when in reality gw2 was never about achieving max level in the first place. I can see how that could be a turn off for a lot of ppl tho, so take it how you will. Dungeons are all kinds of fun, and my personal favorites are the explorable modes of Crucible of Eternity.
There are a whole boatload of good things about this game, but again it was just not possible to live up to all the hype generated around it. It is correct to think that items are just a coin toss, but the true gems of weapons and armor are given as rewards for dungeon tokens.
This is a true article. I can speak from personal experience.
I didn't even have to ask for anyone's help. I come into an area, I see foes, I go kill them. I see someone looking like he's got trouble, I go help. I see a big powerful whatsit that everyone's gathering to destroy, I help destroy it. Sometimes I get rewarded for being in the vicinity of things. This is not a problem. The idea that nobody is left out, that I randomly get help and grant help without anyone asking makes it good. Now, I haven't played in a while because I'm not the best MMO player, but it doesn't matter because it's fun and worth playing.
I didn't even have to ask for anyone's help. I come into an area, I see foes, I go kill them. I see someone looking like he's got trouble, I go help. I see a big powerful whatsit that everyone's gathering to destroy, I help destroy it. Sometimes I get rewarded for being in the vicinity of things. This is not a problem. The idea that nobody is left out, that I randomly get help and grant help without anyone asking makes it good. Now, I haven't played in a while because I'm not the best MMO player, but it doesn't matter because it's fun and worth playing.
I agree. GW2 threw out some fairness by not having you split earnings if you team up against a monster, but it was only a 'fairness' with the underlying mechanics or the total amount of loot and xp in the world. And those are just lines of code, why should we care about being fair to them? And in return, we got more fairness and far more natural cooperation between players. My only concern is that since you don't need to spend much time grouping and you just follow whomever is going your way, I find it hard to form online friendships. You don't need to talk to people to get the help you need, and you don't really need to call them over to help you later since there's plenty of people who'll help you.
By the way Shamus, would you consider doing another Shamus Plays with GW2? I always enjoyed your takes on MMO worlds from the perspective of a character in it. The Asura are probably the best choice, as like the hobbits from LOTR their quests are intentionally ridiculous.
By the way Shamus, would you consider doing another Shamus Plays with GW2? I always enjoyed your takes on MMO worlds from the perspective of a character in it. The Asura are probably the best choice, as like the hobbits from LOTR their quests are intentionally ridiculous.
I think you're missing an important point here. Multiplayer != co-op. A game in which other players are your rivals is just as much multiplayer, massive or not, as one in which they're your allies. The important thing is not cooperation, but interaction. If you're competing with another player for a resource, that's multiplayer. It matters that the other player is there and makes it a experience different experience than if they weren't.Shamus Young said:
It only becomes a problem if you're neither cooperating or competing with them. Problems finding groups and being actively encouraged to ignore other players are real problems for an MMO because it may as well just be a single player game. But things like competing for resources and loot are very much multiplayer. They may not be the type of multiplayer that everyone likes, but not everyone likes constantly enforced co-op either. There's a very big difference between something that is inherently a problem for multiplayer games, and something that is simply not the kind of game you enjoy.
It's also worth noting that many of the solutions come with their own problems. GW2 is not the first game to have public group quests and rewards for helping random players. But the problem with those is that while they can encourage people to play together, they don't encourage socialising at all. If a game forces you to find a small group that needs to stick together and coordinate to get something done, even if you don't become friends and never see each other again you've at least spent some time playing with real people. But in games like WAR and Rift where you can just drop in and out of public quests, I don't recall a single person ever talking to me at all. Technically I was playing with other people, but they may as well have just been NPCs. Encouraging people to play in the same place at the same time does not necessarily encourage them to play together.